media watch with spaced

[spaced]

"As far as I'm concerned, marijuana, no matter what you say is bad." These were the words of Mark, a man in his thirties who had in his youth smoked Cannabis for 10 months and went on to develop "schiophrenia" in his later years.

Mark and several other guests appeared on last Thursday's catalyst show, on the ABC, in a segment entitled "dope & schizophrenia" where psychologist Dr Martin Cohen's studies testing a link between Cannabis use in youth and the development of schizophrenia in adult life were examined.

Cohen made a number of important claims: that Cannabis use effects the way the brain will be wired for later life and that smoking Cannabis is going to change the way the brain works and irreversibly change the way the adolescent brain develops to be more like that of a schizophrenic.

However, only one of these claims was tested: the effect of Cannabis use on brain function compared with the effect of schizophrenia on brain function. An MRI was performed on test subjects whilst they were performing a "thinking task." Four groups were tested: a control group with no history of drug use or schizophrenia, schizophrenics with no history of drug use, heavy Cannabis users and schizophrenics who also smoked Cannabis. Two brain areas were shown to functionally differ between the four test groups: the cerebellum and the 'frontal cortex (ie the prefrontal cortical area as Cohen went on to clarify). The control group exhibited a high degree of functioning in both of these areas. Function of both areas was decreased in the schizophrenics, decreased even further in the heavy Cannabis users and in the schizophrenic Cannabis users there was no activation at all. These functional changes were portrayed as compelling evidence of a functional similarity between the brains of schizophrenics and Cannabis users.

However, the finding that prefrontal cortical activity is decreased in the brain of schizophrenics runs counter to conventional psychiatric thinking. The prefrontal cortex is located in the frontal lobe and is responsible for higher intellectual functions such as predicting future situations or consequences, memory, calculations and complex thinking. This same area generates feelings of frustration, tension and anxiety. In the not so distant past a form of brain butchery known as "prefrontal lobotomy" was performed by psychiatrists (ironically psychiatry literally translated means soul healing) on the brains of more often than not non consenting schizophrenics. The procedure which involves severing connecting fibres between the thalamus and prefrontal cortex, in some cases using nothing more than an ice pick, often leaves the "patient" feeling lethargic with a loss of memory and intellectual facillities and lack of social restraint (ie unconcerned about decorum and toilet training). The patient who no longer cares whether (s)he is having hallucinations is said to be "cured". Although prefrontal lobotomies are no longer used, psychiatrists relly on a group of drugs called "antipsychotics," otherwise known as "chemical lobotomies." The drugs produce a similar effect to the prefrontal lobotomy in that they block dopamine transmission to the frontal lobes rendering the patient apathetic, inhibiting passion and will power (Breggin PR, Toxic Psychiatry 1993). Because antipsychotics block dopamine transmission leading to a level of zombification equivelant to that of the so called "normal" population it has been suggested that schizophrenics have heightened dopamine activity - the biopsychiatric approach. Similar theories apply to most forms of "mental illness" for instance drugs used to treat depression (supposedly) increase serotonin levels, hence depression is said to be due to decreased serotonin levels; drugs used to treat "attention deficit disorder" increase noradrenaline and dopamine levels, hence ADD is said to be due to decreased noradrenaline and dopamine levels. These "pharmacocentric" models of mental illness (ie drug X increases/decreases the levels of substance Y in the brains of patients with condition Z hence patients with condition Z must have a decreased or increased level respectively of substance Y in their brains) offer no conclusive proof or any biochemical changes in any form of mental illness. To illustrate this point consider a depressed person who smokes Cannabis which then makes them feel better - does this mean that this person has a Cannabis deficiency?

Dr Cohen's findings that Cannabis use decreases prefrontal cortical activity in schizophrenics would, according to the biopsychiatric approach, suggest that Cannabis may be of benefit in treating schizophrenics. Materia medica of little more than 100 years ago list Cannabis indica as a treatment for mania, insomnia, melancholia and hysteria (Merck 1899 Manual). Professor O Phelps Brown in his 1874 publication, The Complete Herbalist, states that Cannabis indica stands in good repute for the treatment of the the various insanities including mania, puerperal mania, monomania, dementia, moral mania (a "kink in the head" or a "bee in the bonnet"), lypemania or melancholia, theomania, erotomania, autophomania, misanthropia and kleptomania.

The question as to how the schizophrenics in Dr Cohen's study showed a decreased level of activity in the prefrontal cortex remains unanswered. The most likely answer is that his schizophrenic subjects were in fact on antipsychotic medication. This may also explain the decreased level of activity in the cerebellum. Antipsychotic medications are potent neurotoxins and produce a range of side effects known as extrapyrimidal side effects (EPSEs) - a group of movement disorders characterised by involuntary muscular twitching. Tardive dyskinesia, a slow onset form of EPSE takes from weeks to months to develop and tends to worsen following discontinuation of the drugs. Conservative estimates suggest that 10-20% of people on APs will develop tardive dyskinesia, however, some studies have suggested that up to 66% of chronic, elderly antipsychotic users will develop TD. In severe cases victims may be confined to a wheel chair (http://www.antipsychiatry.org/jenelle.htm). The widely quoted assumption that the newer atypical antipsychotics - clozapine, risperidone, quetiapine and olanzapine have a lower incidence of EPSEs is yet to be proven as the drugs have not been around for long enough to accumulate sufficient post marketing surveillance data. The cerebellum, which is part of the extra pyrimidal system may or may not be targeted by antipsychotic drugs. If it were, this may explain why Dr Cohen's schizophrenics had decreased activity in the cerebellum. The results of the MRI showing decreased cerebellum activity in the Cannabis users is hard to explain. If we were to make the quantum leap, as perhaps Dr cohen might, in assuming that Cannabis has similar EPSEs to antipsychotics, based on these MRIs then there would be cause for concern. In the documentary we see someone rolling a joint with shaky hands - suggestive of TD, but this may well be a schizophrenic who has been on antipsychotics for a long time. The person may just be nervous. Because it is TV they are probably smoking tea leaves anyway. Much more evidence would be needed to draw such conclusions.

Ultimately the viewer must try to make sense of these "latest findings." As explained, Dr Cohen's findings don't make a lot of sense in light of conventional psychiatric wisdom. Psychiatry as practiced in the western world is a continuation of the witch hunts prevalent in the middle ages and targets heretics and deviants, invalidating their beliefs by labelling them "mentally ill." It is a pseudoscience aimed at generating profits for pharmaceutical giants and maintaining the vested interests and class driven moral judgements of bourgeious monotony. The term psychiatric wisdom is perhaps then an oxymoron. The gnome who wrote this article and handed it to me smokes Cannabis, is quasi schizoid and refuses to take antipsychotics - this rascal most certainly can't be trusted.

How you act on the information is up to you. A few afterthoughts are probably worth mentioning at this point

1) Schizophrenia affects somewhere between 1 and 2% of the population. The documentary stated that two thirds (67%) of adolescents had used Cannabis. Even if only Cannabis users became schizophrenics, which is most certainly not true, Cannabis use would then carry between a 1.5 and 3% risk of developing schizophrenia. The only epidemiological study Dr Cohen seems to have performed is on his case study Mark. Mark believes that if he had not smoked Cannabis he would not have schizophrenia. This is only annecdotal evidence from a single person.

2)There are no biochemical or physical tests available to prove if someone has schizophrenia. The various biochemical theories put forth for schizophrenia such as the dopamine hypothesis, the transmethylation hypothesis (that schizophrenics produce excessive endogenous DMT) have never been proven and remain only theories. Psychiatrists differ in opinion as to what schizophrenia is. Some may label a person schizophrenic, whilst others may insist they are "manic depressive." Some may say that the same person is "normal." These inconsistancies have led some to argue that schizophrenia does in fact not exist at all. http://www.antipsychiatry.org/schizoph.htm

3) Schizophrenia has not always been seen as a bad thing. The popular image of the gun / axe etc wielding maniac is a stereotype engineered by the media. Statistically schizophrenics are less likely to perform such acts of violence than the "normal" population.

In other cultures what western psychiatry sees as schizophrenia may be interpreted as a shamanic calling ( ttp://www.geocities.com/johnny_crowseed/sands/skzindex.html ). A correlation between mystical states and the psychoses has been suggested ( http://www.well.com/user/elliotts/smse_schizo.html ). As the bad guy in Passenger 57 says - "t is the nature of man to confuse genius with insanity"

Galileo, who first suggested that the earth travelled around the sun was considered by skeptics to be "mad." Andrew Weil in his book, The Natural Mind is tempted to call psychotics the evolutionary vanguard of the species:

......"every psychotic is a potential sage or healer and to the extent that the negative psychotics are burdens to society, to that extent can positive psychotics be assets."

4) Naturally drug use in the youth is a concerning issue for many and possible interactions with the developing brain is cause for concern, but when you consider that know neurotoxic drugs such as alcohol and solvents are legally available, it becomes difficult to evaluate just how bad Cannabis use is in comparision. Cigarettes have recently been implicated as being associated with mental illness however this does not mean they are causative. Caffeine has long been known to be associated with psychosis when used in excessive quantities and produces a condition called caffeinism when used in even low doses which is very difficult to distinguish from anxiety disorders.

[nabraxas]

http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/marijuana/

has some very interesting articles, 1 ov which i'll paste here in full as a part answer.

"Cannabis link to mental illness strengthened

The link between regular cannabis use and later depression and schizophrenia has been significantly strengthened by three new studies.

The studies provide "little support" for an alternative explanation - that people with mental illnesses self-medicate with marijuana - according to Joseph Rey and Christopher Tennant of the University of Sydney, who have written an editorial on the papers in the British Medical Journal.

One of the key conclusions of the research is that people who start smoking cannabis as adolescents are at the greatest risk of later developing mental health problems. Another team calculates that eliminating cannabis use in the UK population could reduce cases of schizophrenia by 13 per cent.

Until now, say Rey and Tennant, there was "a dearth of reliable evidence" to support the idea that cannabis use could cause schizophrenia or depression. That lack of good evidence "has handicapped the development of rational public health policies," according to one of the research groups, led by George Patton at the Murdoch Children's Research Institute in Melbourne, Australia.

The works also highlights potential risks associated with using cannabis as a medicine to ease the symptoms of muscular sclerosis, for example.

Pharmacological effect

Patton's team followed over 1600 Australian school pupils aged 14 to 15 for seven years. Daily cannabis use was associated with a five-fold increased risk of depression at the age of 20. Weekly use was linked to a two-fold increase. The regular users were no more likely to have suffered from depression or anxiety at the start of the study.

The reason for the link is unclear. Social consequences of frequent cannabis use include educational failure and unemployment, which could increase the risk of depression. "However, because the risk seems confined largely to daily users, the question about a direct pharmacological effect remains," says Patton.

In separate research, a team led by Stanley Zammit at the University of Cardiff, UK, evaluated data on over 50,000 men who had been Swedish military conscripts in 1969 and1970. This group represents 97 per cent of men aged 18 to 20 in the population at that time.

The new analysis revealed a dose-dependant relationship between the frequency of cannabis use and schizophrenia. This held true in men with no psychotic symptoms before they started using cannabis, suggesting they were not self-medicating.

Genetic factors

Finally, researchers led by Terrie Moffitt at King's College London, UK, analysed comprehensive data on over 1000 people born in Dunedin, New Zealand in 1972 and 1973.

They found that people who used cannabis by age 15 were four times as likely to have a diagnosis of schizophreniform disorder (a milder version of schizophrenia) at age 26 than non-users.

But when the number of psychotic symptoms at age 11 was controlled for, this increased risk dropped to become non-significant. This suggests that people already at greater risk of later developing mental health problems are also more likely to smoke cannabis.

The total number of high quality studies on cannabis use and mental health disorders remains small, stress Rey and Tennant. And it is still not clear whether cannabis can cause these conditions in people not predisposed by genetic factors, for example, to develop them.

"The overall weight of evidence is that occasional use of cannabis has few harmful effects overall," Zammit's team writes. "Nevertheless, our results indicate a potentially serious risk to the mental health of people who use cannabis. Such risks need to be considered in the current move to liberalise and possibly legalise the use of cannabis in the UK and other countries."

Journal references: British Medical Journal (vol 325, p1195, p1199, p1212, p1183)"

ok- i do not disagree that the tv show was bull, or that MJ hasn't been shown to definativly cause shizophrenia, however

from personal expeerience, ov a friend having secret chats w/the lover she met in bali via the living room gas fire- because that was where he was hiding to keep an eye on here-(as just 1 small symptom ov a totally delusional world view) there is w/out a doubt such a thing as schizophrenia; it may be massively over diagnosed, it may come in at least 2 types- but it does exist.

the link to MJ(not as a cause, but maybe an amplifier?) is not clear, but it is there.

when my friend is off stellazine- the very worst for those side effects- she is a mess & it is blindingly obvious that 1 bong scrambles things even more(i wont allow it, when she's like that- it's way too upsetting to watch). when she is on stelazine she's fine & MJ seems to actually help her w/the agitation. we have tried to change to other meds, but they haven't worked & each time she goes back she needs more stelazine-currently on 25mg/day.

This is only annecdotal evidence from a single person, but i would hate to think my friend was taking that stuff for a made up condition, fooled by the psychiatrists, for the profit ov drug companies- that would be bordering on delusional

[ 26. February 2003, 06:47: Message edited by: nabraxas ]

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the link to MJ(not as a cause, but maybe an amplifier?)

If so, perhaps Cannabis could be used as a diagnostic tool ie put the symptoms under the magnifying glass so to speak

when my friend is off stellazine- the very worst for those side effects- she is a mess

I'm not against people taking neuroleptics if that's what they want but

-they must only take them out of their own free will ie involuntary treatment with drugs and electroshock for that matter should not be forced on anyone;

-they should be fully informed of the side effects of the drugs and educated as to how the drug's actions are based purely on hypothetical brain chemistry abnormalities which have never been proven. If Cannabis or any other "recreational drug" was shown to cause movement disorders obvious to the untrained eye it would cause an uproar. Some may suggest that the neuroleptics as a class of drugs should be banned but then you do point out that your friend experiences benefit from taking Stelazine. Chronic alcoholics may find drinking excessively alleviates their sorrows - but this does not mean we should encourage the practice when the drug, alcohol is causing liver, kidney and brain damage.

- Alternatives to drug therapy should be offered if psychiatrists are to insist on involuntary hospitalisation. I would particularly like to see the reappearance of therapeutic communes such as R D Laing's experiments into antipsychiatry practiced at Kingsley Hall. I have heard of such a community in India and efforts are underway to create something similar in South Australia ( http://www.jungcircle.com/Schizophrenia.html ).

& it is blindingly obvious that 1 bong scrambles things even more

Have you tried substituting the Cannabis with a placebo? It would be interesting to discriminate the extent to which this is pharmacologically related from the possible influences of user expectations and psychosomatic variables.

when she is on stelazine she's fine & MJ seems to actually help her w/the agitation.

Ultimately I'm in favour of medication free management but if MJ appears to have a synergistic effect this could in theory allow for a dose reduction of Stelazine and I think most psychiatrists would agree that "schizophrenia" is best managed with the lowest possible dose of antipsychotics to limit the chances of developing extra pyrimidal side effects.

we have tried to change to other meds, but they haven't worked & each time she goes back she needs more stelazine-currently on 25mg/day.

I think its great that you're helping out your friend. When friends and family are willing to work with a sufferer of mental illness to help that person realise his/her dreams and ambitions the results are bound to be positive. If on the other hand the same "friends" or relatives are to conspire with the psychiatrists so that their desires for what they consider to be in the patients best interest are met, then those "friends" and relatives are no better than the psychiatrists themselves.

This is only annecdotal evidence from a single person, but i would hate to think my friend was taking that stuff for a made up condition, fooled by the psychiatrists, for the profit ov drug companies- that would be bordering on delusional

I wouldn't know where to start on this one but I would have to thoroughly recommend reading Toxic Psychiatry by Peter Breggin and his theories on the medical industrial complex.

In Australia, Zyprexa is probably the most widely used of the antipsychotics. It is manufactured by the Eli Lilly drug company who also developed the first of the SSRIs - Prozac. The profits from these two drugs would be enormous given their widespread use. The popularity of these two drugs in Australia would no doubt be assisted by the efforts of "SANE Australia" - an educational system which provides free pamphlets to sufferers and carers of the mentally ill, promoting biopsychiatry and drug treatments for mental illness. SANE Australia is funded by the Eli Lilly company, who no doubt would like to influence the prescribing habits of psychiatrists and increase consumer demand for certain drugs. Drug companies will go to any lengths to generate profits even if this means falsifying the results of therapeutic trials or paying off university professors and other academics to promote their drugs. What's particularly disturbing about Eli Lilly's large role in the Australian mental health industry is its track record. Eli Lilly according to Jonathon Ott (ref Pharmacotheon) was sponsored by the US government to manufacture LSD for its MK-ULTRA mind control experiments. After the CIA was refused supply from the drug's developers, Sandoz laboratories, on the grounds that the experiments were considered unethical, the US govt then commissioned Eli Lilly to break international patent agreements and manufacture large quantities of LSD to be tested on the unwitting public and armed services. Eli Lilly in effect became the first underground producer of illicit LSD in America. Now the same company is at the forefront of Australia's mental health movement. I think we've got every right to be "paranoid" or at least concerned. It's usually the individual who voices his or her concerns which contrast with those of the general public who is labelled as "insane" - in whatever shape, form or "official diagnosis" the psychiatric profession has tailored for him.

[nabraxas]

thanks for that reply spaced. most thoughtful.

v. interesting too, i knew the cia were denied sandoz lsd for their mkultra scheme, but i was unaware ov the zypraxa(sp?) link- my friend was on that to for awhile.

i don't really disagree w/what you're saying, & i guess if it wasn't for personal circumstances i'd be right on board w/your attitude to the 'zines & the drug multinationals. but, my friend went through the worst time ever-from days hysterically crying to living w/a guy she met on the street who'd told her he was a CIA agent sent to help her, so he could abuse her- before she ended up in a secure ward. she didn't want to take meds at first(it was all part ov "the conspiracy"), but once they started to work & she began to realise what she'd been doing & the shit she'd got herself in; she realised for the first time how sick she really was, & has taken them ov her own free will ever since- sure she knows the side effects but, she really doesn't want to go back to the "psychotic episode" state ov mind, + like many schizophreniacs she smokes loads ov cigarettes, hand rolled, no filter- i think she figures the side effects from that will get her before the side effects ov the stella's.

i can see the alcahol analogy, but i think alcahol provides an escape & not a permanent day to day solution.

r.d laing has done some excellent work(knots is a great book) & the idea ov alternative therapies is great, but when exteemes happen & cops are involved; there isn't usually time to organise anything. i rang many schizophrenia groups & CARE etc, while she was in hospital trying to organise somewhere for her to stay when she got out- no help at all. the govt. screwed her too, when it came to sickness benefit.

as to doseage, she's on the dose that takes away enough ov the symptoms so she can go to work, socialise, live etc., but she still has enough ov the symptoms that she has alienated most of her friends.

honestly, everyone who saw her have a bong when she was not on medication, questioned her smoking- it was upsetting to anyone to watch. i don't think we need talk placebo.

i guess there maybe a role for MJ as an indicator.

[nabraxas]

i think we all agree no-one should be on these drugs if there's an alternative.

i've been way more personal than i should have been, but is there anyone else who would back my position- ie: that these psychiatric drugs are a necessary evil, rather than just plain evil?

(& i'm not asking so as to score points or have a go at spaced, but because i think this an important topic & i'd like to see others opinions)

[ 05. March 2003, 05:54: Message edited by: nabraxas ]

[woof woof woof]

It's a very fine line...... :D

gives me a rush just reading some the stuff shizo's go through...

some of the things they experience, closely resemble some of things I experience when I look at the world aound me. Only when the stirred emotions settle, I get a clear view and figure It out again and again ..... that I am walking a fine line.

You know what scares me a little, that's that it can so easily be misunderstood.... heh, might work to your advantage in some cases

Sorry to interupt this super interesting topic,... but I had to let it out somewhere, afetr reading some more stuff about schizoide disturbances.

I believe it is just a matter of fine tuning the reveiver ..... make pituary tune in on some of those trypamine producing frequencies

[woof woof woof]

Patton's team followed over 1600 Australian school pupils aged 14 to 15 for seven years. Daily cannabis use was associated with a five-fold increased risk of depression at the age of 20. Weekly use was linked to a two-fold increase. The regular users were no more likely to have suffered from depression or anxiety at the start of the study.

Of coures they get depressed/frustrated when they absorb all the vibes from their surroundings and don't know how to properly deal with them since their folks/guardians haven't a clue how to do that.....

I mean vibes like cutting down a rainforest and future prospects of the global envioromental health didn't make me very happy :mad:

There are of course many other vibes that kids get exposed to , vibes from withing the family enviroment, street, T.V.... (extraterestrial mind manipulating radiation ) hehhe

[MrBumpy]

Why do they bother to keep doing studies like these if marijuana is already banned and feared by everyone already (apparently).

Wouldn't it be better to do some studies to see what effect the behaviour modifying drugs that seem to be prescribed to children now almost as much as anti-biotics. I knew quite a few people who were prescribed ritalin and dex in high school, and I know a shit load of them got depressed when they were on it...which lead to them not taking it, and giving it to friends who were willing to take them for fun.

-bumpy

[nabraxas]

"Of coures they get depressed/frustrated when they absorb all the vibes from their surroundings and don't know how to properly deal with them since their folks/guardians haven't a clue how to do that....."- except to tell them "dwugs are bad, okay"

"gives me a rush just reading some the stuff shizo's go through...

some of the things they experience, closely resemble some of things I experience when I look at the world aound me. Only when the stirred emotions settle, I get a clear view and figure It out again and again ..... that I am walking a fine line.

You know what scares me a little, that's that it can so easily be misunderstood"

i feel the same way. i remember 1 ov the first acid trips i ever had, the thought "came to me" that if the trip didn't stop, then i'd be "mad".

i realise now that its a lot more subtle than that; many dope smokers, speed & coke users will know exactly what "paranoid delusions" are.

interestingly, there's a couple ov "user expeerience" reports on eorwid that exactly mirror my first time using 5X salvia divinorum in amsterdam; where i was struck w/the same "i've gone mad" thought- only on the LSD it was fine, on the salvia it was extreemly worrying- i could 'see' myself confronting the doctors, trying to explain w/no words comming out, & anyway who can speak dutch?

[spaced]

Originally posted by nabraxas:

[QB]thanks for that reply spaced. most thoughtful.

v. interesting too, i knew the cia were denied sandoz lsd for their mkultra scheme, but i was unaware ov the zypraxa(sp?) link- my friend was on that to for awhile. [/b]

http://www.oralchelation.net/data/Lilly/data6.htm . . . . maybe just a little over the top

. . . like many schizophreniacs she smokes loads ov cigarettes, hand rolled, no filter-

psych hospitals practically endorse the habit with nurses smoking with the patients. A psychiatric hospital would be an ideal place to quit smoking - the "patient" is in a state of mind which is conducive to change

- medical experts and/or supposed experts of the mind are available to offer practical advice

r.d laing has done some excellent work(knots is a great book)

I've been meaning to read "the Politics of Experience." second hand book sales are a good place to pick up antipsychiatry bargains - often for 50c a book!

& the idea ov alternative therapies is great, but when exteemes happen & cops are involved; there isn't usually time to organise anything.

I think with a therapeutic commune in Australia it would be a matter of "build it and they will come." A growing population of disillusioned and dissatisfied mental health workers would more than likely offer their time free of charge in exchange for food and accomodation - sort of like wwoofing. In fact gardening is a recognised therapy for many forms of illness, not just "mental." Can you think of a better use for half a dozen manics than weeding the vegie garden - they'd get the work done in no time. Like any well run commune the usual policy of give the new arrival a meal on the first day and a shovel the next day would have to apply.

As with police involvement, I don't think its fair that violent "psychotics" should share the same ward as otherwise peaceful "psychotics" - its an unfair trauma to otherwise harmless patients who may be driven to act differently.

the govt. screwed her too, when it came to sickness benefit.

You don't have to be sick to get screwed over by the government - but it helps

but she still has enough ov the symptoms that she has alienated most of her friends.

If her "friends" can't deal with her "symptoms" than that's not really her fault - she can't be responsible for other people's thoughts, emotions and actions.

honestly, everyone who saw her have a bong when she was not on medication, questioned her smoking- it was upsetting to anyone to watch. i don't think we need talk placebo.

The "schizophrenic" has a number of potential problems with pot smoking which are entirely unrelated to the pharmacology of the drug;

- given that they have more than likely been hospitalised with a psychotic episode this is going to add a certain amount of anxiety to the experience. Everyone will more than likely experience some mild panic symptoms with MJ; in the schizophrenic the very thought of going back to hospital can be anxiogenic enough

- if they are hospitalised, no one's going to be too pleased with their actions - they'll say "oh, but hang on your 'schizophrenic' - didn't you watch Dr Cohen on the ABC catalyst show clarafying the link between SCZ and Cannabis use? And look at all these other government sponsored research efforts supporting his views . . . . " No one wants to have a bunch of self rightous white clothed experts looking at them down their noses saying "well we told you so." It just adds to the anxiety.

-The group environment if your friend is smoking MJ may contribute to the anxiety. ie They'll be thinking "hmm aren't I being a bit irresposible encorouging a 'schizophrenic' to smoke MJ. Afterall I did see that show with Dr Cohen on the ABC . . . . "

A placebo study could possibly weed out some of these variables. Due to the contributions of group mentality the experiment would have to be double blinded.

[spaced]

nabraxas:

but is there anyone else who would back my position- ie: that these psychiatric drugs are a necessary evil, rather than just plain evil?

I can't see how a drug can be considered "evil" or even "good" for that matter. A drug can sit in a bottle for hundreds of years and do nothing - ultimately its the use of the drug which could be considered "good" or "evil" and then you've got to consider the context in which its used - eg small doses in targeted therapy against cancer or the same chemical used to manufacture lethal chemical warfare agents. Hence, I guess my question to you nabraxas is do you support forced psychiatric drugging against the patient's wishes? Something quite different than if the patient choses to take the drug after being offered alternatives and informed of the side effects and Eli Lilly's involvement with MK ULTRA Drug companies are well aware that a lot of patients don't want to take their drugs - ways of getting around this are putting the drug in wafer form so that the patient can't pretend to swallow it and spit it out later; in sweet tasting alcohol based solutions - more palatble to children, could sneak into food or drink; the truly recalcitrant patient may be give "depot injections" ie report to the shrink every two weeks to be injected with a slow release form of the drug. Psychiatrists, if they can't get the patient to take tablets may threaten to inject the patient, lock them in an enclosed rooom or give them ECT. A "patient" can be given all these things and more simply because they think and act differently to so called normal people. Unlike a homicidal rapist they are not given the benefit of a court of law to determine their innocence - due process does not apply to psychiatric patients and even if they were allowed to stand trial they would be drugged out of their minds before given a chance to plead their innocence. Why should anyone have to justify the way they think?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by brian:

 

[QB]

 

some of the things they experience, closely resemble some of things I experience when I look at the world aound me. Only when the stirred emotions settle, I get a clear view and figure It out again and again ..... that I am walking a fine line./QB]

---

"The mystic endowed with native talents. . . . and following. . . . the instructions of a master, enters the waters and finds he can swim; whereas the schizophrenic, unprepared, unguided and ungifted, has fallen or has intentionally plunged and is drowning"

Joseph Campbell, Myths to live by.

[spaced]

MrBumpy:

Wouldn't it be better to do some studies to see what effect the behaviour modifying drugs that seem to be prescribed to children now almost as much as anti-biotics. I knew quite a few people who were prescribed ritalin and dex in high school, and I know a shit load of them got depressed when they were on it...which lead to them not taking it, and giving it to friends who were willing to take them for fun.

-bumpy

Its often the brighter students who are not sufficiently challanged by the education system who fail to integrate and are labelled ADHD. The academic sphere only recognises certain forms of intelligence and the potential genius of many children will never be realised. Society ultimately controls the education system and thus moulds it around capitalist ideals - getting the highest test scores, etc.

The use of dexamphetamine has gone up approximately twentyfold over the last 10 years in Australia. Whats possibly even more frightening is that antipsychotics and mood stabalising eg lithium drugs are being increasingly used in school children.

Many children prescribed drugs for ADHD go on to develop illicit drug habits - Kurt Cobain being a good example, R.I.P., although I would point out that as with Cannabis/mental illness studies a link is no proof of causation and even if it were you're still left with the chicken and egg question - ie trying to esatablish causal direction.

Obviously you would do much better in the illicit drug world having something to offer (and at great profit - a 200 pack of govt subsidised Dex for a few dollars, sell each tablet for $5. . .). The side effects of the drugs and possible withdrawal syndromes may drive users to take other substances.