Tichocereus bertramineus X Trichocereus sp. SS02

[Stillman]

Not much info on this hybrid but I have a few seedlings and just didi a stack of grafts to peres. I was wondering does anyone have any pictures of adult/ semi adult plants? Its a Sacred Succulent seed.

[shruman]

Hmmmm, sounds like you got scammed, please dispose of your seedlings & grafts before you perpetuate the scam any further ;)

[Stillman]

Trout does mentions them as a "recognised Hybrid" and they are in the SS catalogue. I mean is T bertramineus a species/ recognised cv or not, what are its defining characteristics? If its not it IS a scam. An unstable hybrid x with a stable cv (in this case SS02 which may or may not be stable but from pics of offspring do seem to produce fairly true ) might as well be Trichocereus sp? x SSO2 which produce say 1:100 of desired genetics from SS02 popping up in any or all the offspring, but as it has been used as a male element of this cross?? Who knows lol. Which goes back to the other thread your inferring.

edit to simplify what I am saying.

Growing Cacti from seed is a roll of the dice at best. In my opinion hybridised seed of 2 stable cultivars would most likely produce more consistently uniform offspring. However if you account for hybrid vigour you again have to get your dice out. lol

How to start an augment about nothing on an internet forum 101. lol

BAck to the thread Anyone got any pics of adult T bertramineus or T bertramineus x SSo2

Edited November 15, 2012 by Stillman

[shruman]

Yeah I was only taking the piss about your previous comments on hybrids being a profiteering scam. It was supposed to be a laugh hopefully with you (judging by your LOL's it was) if not once again I put my foot right in it.

"Trichocereus bertramianus (=Helianthocereus bertramianus)

Columnar monster with stems up to 10" in diameter and 6'–8' tall.

The numerous ribs are completely covered with many 2–3" white and

yellow bristly spines giving the plant the appearance of having golden

hair. Creamy white diurnal flowers. Grows at 12,000' La Paz, Bolivia.

Z7b–8a"

http://pastebin.com/AAjXt2Xn

From the description sounds like something I have that I nicknamed 'Bertha', have no idea what Bertha is & noones been able to help me with an ID, but that description is better than any I can find for it especialy the diurnal white flower bit. Pics here: http://www.shaman-au...ha&fromsearch=1

I wonder where that description came from?

How do you define an unstable cultivar stillman?, most cactus cultivars are propagated through cuttings so a hybrid is a hybrid until its mass propagated via cutting making it a cultivar, my understanding of it anyway?

I was under the impression diurnal flowers were quite rare for Trichocereus but apparently this was a key delineating feature for the now superfluous Helianthocereus. Which reminds me that EG did try to help with an ID on Bertha suggesting possibly Helianthocereus poco which apparently does have a var alba as opposed to the usual pink flowers. I took the suggestio on board but felt differently as I have what I was told was a poco that apparently has pink floers & appears quite different.

"At one time the Helianthocereus species also were included in Trichocereus—the tall-growing species despite their uniformly divergent habit, and the lower-growing ones irrespective of the fact that, like all members of Helianthocereus, they have diurnal flowers which are also brightly coloured; consequently there was continuing uncertainty as to where they should be referred. But here again, segregation has proved beneficial; and a similar delimitation can usefully be carried out within the Genus Trichocereus, since the flowers of the Chilean species, which in some cases remain open for several days, are also more bellshaped-funnelform"

http://www.shaman-au...h=1

Edited November 15, 2012 by shruman

[shruman]

"Trout does mentions them as a "recognised Hybrid" and they are in the SS catalogue. I mean is T bertramineus a species/ recognised cv or not, what are its defining characteristics? If its not it IS a scam. An unstable hybrid x with a stable cv (in this case SS02 which may or may not be stable but from pics of offspring do seem to produce fairly true ) might as well be Trichocereus sp? x SSO2 which produce say 1:100 of desired genetics from SS02 popping up in any or all the offspring, but as it has been used as a male element of this cross?? Who knows lol. Which goes back to the other thread your inferring.

edit to simplify what I am saying.

Growing Cacti from seed is a roll of the dice at best. In my opinion hybridised seed of 2 stable cultivars would most likely produce more consistently uniform offspring. However if you account for hybrid vigour you again have to get your dice out. lol

How to start an augment about nothing on an internet forum 101. lol"

Bugger & blast your questions are making my head hurt... in a good way.

As Trichocereus are by & large self infertile any SS02 offspring should be a hybrid with something else so the offspring should not be a cultivar until they are propagated via cutting making them a cultivar.

As SS02 appears to be & apparently is a hybrid it is only a cultivar because it has been propagated by cuttings. Wether it's traits (I guess you mean morphological?) are dominant is an issue aside from it being a cultivar, I think?

Its folly to think an apparent hybrid like SS02 that is only a cultivar because it has been clonaly propagated could be a cultivar in the same way that Icaro's is a cultivar ie producing stable progeny through seeds as you cannot breed it with another SS02 but you can breed 2 seed grown Icaro's.

Head is still hurting...

Edited November 15, 2012 by shruman

[shruman]

"Trichocereus bertramianus synonym of Echinopsis bertramiana

Trichocereus bertramianus Backeberg, Kaktus-ABC 200, 1935"

Helianthocereus bertramianus.

Ok so its probly just a spelling mistake.

[Stillman]

http://www.largelyaccurateinformationmedia.com/pedro/pedro_hybrids.html

check out the variation of the plants grown from seed from a cross done both ways.