Cake troubles?

[Hillbilly32]

This is my third attempt at innoculating cakes and for some reason there has never been any mycelium growth whatsoever.

The second attempt has been in a container for about 2 1/2 weeks now and has shown no signs of growth at all. A spore syringe was made from half a print, mixed with sterile water and then sucked back into the syrgine. One thing I have noticed though is there is hardly any spores in the syringe when I have a look, if at all.

Are they normally visible in the syringe? And if they are not in the syringe, then where could they have gone? I scraped them into a little shot glass and could definetly notice a few large clumps of black, yet when in the syringe, it was not noticeable at all, and I think this is where my problem lies.

EDIT: Thought my substrate might help a bit. I use Sun Rice Brown Rice which I have had through a blender on high for 5 or so minutes so that every bit of rice has turned to a powder. I am also using this in a mix with vermiculite in a ratio of 2 parts vermiculite to 1 part brown rice flour, to about 50ml of water. These are then sterilised for 2 hours.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as this is extremely frustrating

Thankyou

-Hillbilly

Edited February 20, 2008 by Hillbilly32

[reshroomED]

Try squirting out and re-drawing a few times.

This should disperse the spores more evenly in solution.

Whilst have no mycelial growth at all isn't good, it shows that your sterile technique is up to scratch (unless you're sterilising your spores ).

So your problem lies with spores or inocculation.

If your prints are old, it may pay to hydrate them for a while before inocculation.

ed

[gerbil]

your material may also not have enough moisture to support growth, 2 parts to 1 parts to 50ml means nothing, you could be using 2kg, 1kg then 50ml

Interestingly i've plated spores before from the same print in which some plates show growth and some plates don't; also sometimes some plates take off immediately and others may take a month to germination, fuse and then show signs of growth.

Temperature may also be another limiting factor.

good luck with your work, and don't get discouraged

[gerbil]

... dbl post

Edited February 20, 2008 by gerbil

[Hillbilly32]

No, I sterilised the jars, then left them to cool for about an hour till I reckon they were around 30°? And then innoculated the jars with the syringe which had been rehydrating the spores for 2 days in a container in the fridge.

I just don't get why it's not working, I mean, it definetly sucked up SOME of the spores that were in the water, so why aren't they growing? It's silly.

Sorry, should have added that the mixture was 140ml vermiculite, 70ml brown rice flour and 50ml of water

Edited February 20, 2008 by Hillbilly32

[ENtiTY]

The problem may lie with the rice grain you are using. I seem to remember that rice is treated. Try buying some organic brown rice flower from a health shop and give that a whirl.

Spores will settle in a syringe in a short amount of time and when they do they are a bit of a pain to loosen up again. Shake the hell out of the syringe or better yet squirt the water out into a sterile container and suck back up a few times to mix'em up good .

As for making a spore syringe I find its best to scrape however much you want into a small zip baggy then seal. Fill your syringe with water to the desired level and just slightly crack the zip seal enough to insert the syringe tip. Squirt your water in and pull the syringe out. Seal the zip again and break the spore clumps up with your fingers through the plastic. Insert your syringe again as above but this time all the way to the bottom of the baggy in one corner and suck up some spore mix then squirt it back in to stir it all up then quickly suck all the water/spore mix out. With this method you get an even, fine and clump free distribution of spores with minimal waste of spores.

Remember to heat treat and alcohol swab cool the syringe tip before you insert it in the baggy each time.

[Hyphal]

If you only let your jars cool for an hour, then they were probably still too hot and you killed your spores. Let them sit overnight next time..

[Hillbilly32]

My latest batch have been going for 6 days now and those jars 'were' cooled overnight, so that wasn't the problem. They also do not show any mycelium growth.

[ENtiTY]

Seriously dude its the rice your using. Also what are the conditions your incubating under?

[Hyphal]

My latest batch have been going for 6 days now and those jars 'were' cooled overnight, so that wasn't the problem. They also do not show any mycelium growth.

I was only going by the information in your post, you specifically stated you let them cool for an hour, and that would mean they were WAY too hot still.

With these latest jars, 6 days isnt very long for spore innoculation, especially if they arent being incubated at the correct temps. Wait another week with those jars, and if there is still nothing, then your spores may not be viable.

The brand of rice you are using should nto make a difference on whether or not they germinate, brown rice is brown rice.

[Hillbilly32]

I have them in glass jars, covered with foil, which is all inside a 50lt plastic container. I have underneath that an electric blanket constantly on level 1 which keeps it at around 27-28°C. It is in a room in a corner with a window along the same wall so it does not get any direct light at all, though I have read that mycelium prefers absolute darkness so this may be my problem, the little light getting in.

[XipeTotec]

I have them in glass jars, covered with foil, which is all inside a 50lt plastic container. I have underneath that an electric blanket constantly on level 1 which keeps it at around 27-28°C. It is in a room in a corner with a window along the same wall so it does not get any direct light at all, though I have read that mycelium prefers absolute darkness so this may be my problem, the little light getting in.

the jars will get way too hot if you burn your house down

[ENtiTY]

Ahhh no brown rice is not all just brown rice. For example, organic brown rice and non organic brown rice. What is is absorbed by the non-organic rice and how that effects fungi growth is a potential problem. As I said earlier I remember a reading somewhere that the majority of supermarket rices have anti-fungal's added. The information was in specific relation to use in mycology and explaining the reason why to use organic brown rice flower. Just wish I could remember the source .

[Hillbilly32]

Any alternative to brown rice flour then? I have read up on wild bird seed, rye and manure, wild bird seed being the easiest to buy in bulk yet have read mixed reports on success.

A member here also highly recommended rye seed, but I rung around and no-one supplies it. Might have to look at the local homebrew shop?

I have a huge abundance of sheep manure where I am, I am wondering whether I can substitute that for horse manure?

[ENtiTY]

Any alternative to brown rice flour then? I have read up on wild bird seed, rye and manure, wild bird seed being the easiest to buy in bulk yet have read mixed reports on success.

A member here also highly recommended rye seed, but I rung around and no-one supplies it. Might have to look at the local homebrew shop?

I have a huge abundance of sheep manure where I am, I am wondering whether I can substitute that for horse manure?

If your going to go grain then my suggestion is popping corn. Purely personal preference there, I've found it easier and more consistent to work with compared to WBS. Have used WBS and had success but found popping corn to be easier to consistantly nail the optimal grain hydration level. Comes down to personal preference and what your familiar with.

Good luck finding rye in oz for prices that a worth while. Its harder to find and much more expensive. Tek's written by peeps from the US use it as its more common over there I understand. I've never seen it in any of the homebrew shops or websites I have been to, I doubt you'll have much luck there.

Just so you know what your in for, you will prolly stuff up your first and maybe your second grain attempts. They will either be to moist or to dry. Its virtually impossible to explain to someone how to get that perfect grain moisture level as the exact recipe will vary according to the specific person and the equipment they are using, more than one way to skin a cat so to speak. Follow a tek as a guide but you kinda have to feel it out yourself, you might need to cook the grain a little longer or strain it a bit longer. Don't get to discouraged from failures, I know its hard not to, instead learn from them and you will be one step closer to finding what works best .

Don't worry about manure just yet, one giant leap at a time eh .

[ENtiTY]

Oh yeah I forgot to mention I sent an email to the rice company you mentioned asking if they have any additives in their brown rice. Let you know what the reply is.

[reshroomED]

the jars will get way too hot if you burn your house down

Spot-0n!

Using an electric blanket (bloody things should be outlawed) as an incubtion heat-source is very dangerous. You're asking for a fire here. As someone who's lost all they own bar the clothes on their back *twice* due to house-fires I can guarantee that you don't want one.

Also, if you enter some location info in your profile we'll be better able to advise, knowing more of your ambient weather conditions.

Sounds like you're doing a PF-Tek style grow (which is very good - pretty fool-proof if you follow instructions *to-the-letter* - and it gives great insight into the practical aspects of the mushroom's growing cycle).

Been a while for me, but from memory, spawn and fruiting temps are 30°C and 25° respectively. Too far away from these and you'll get slow or no growth. This is especially so when starting the culture.

Again from memory, ratios should be around 2.66:1:1 verm:flour:water. Whist these parameters needn't be as tightly held as the temps, I'd say your substrate is a bit dry.

Are you using a vermiculite barrier on top of your substrate?

If so, ensure that the sharp on your syringe is longer than the barrier's depth, else your spore solution will be absorbed by the verm and that's all she wrote.

I'm pretty sure that sungold brown rice is perfectly suitable (well I'm pretty sure it *was* a few years back). Also found that leaving probably 5 - 10% as 'slightly-larger-than-flour-particles' will help things out both speed yield-wise.

Do you know that the print is viable? I once had a collection of nearly a hundred varied spore-prints garnered from trades over a period of time, and upon inspection over 75% were either just folds of foil with nothing on them, or so faint a print as for me not to bother with.

Can't help re the sheep-shit, but horse-shit from a good stables (somewhere with thouroughbreds that are fed the good stuff) is the bee's knees for casings.

Apart from the above, I can't see what else could be your problem.

If you stick to the letter of the PF tek you should have no problems, and I'd strongly recommend perfecting the PF-tek before trying any other.

cheers

ed

[ayjay101]

These are then sterilised for 2 hours.

This seems far too long - 45 min to an hour should be plenty depending on the pressure cooker setting. The cakes are prolly drying out.

[Hyphal]

He's steam sterilising, he doesnt have a PC. 2 hours is good when steam sterilising.

[Hyphal]

If your going to go grain then my suggestion is popping corn. Purely personal preference there, I've found it easier and more consistent to work with compared to WBS. Have used WBS and had success but found popping corn to be easier to consistantly nail the optimal grain hydration level. Comes down to personal preference and what your familiar with.

Good luck finding rye in oz for prices that a worth while. Its harder to find and much more expensive. Tek's written by peeps from the US use it as its more common over there I understand. I've never seen it in any of the homebrew shops or websites I have been to, I doubt you'll have much luck there.

Just so you know what your in for, you will prolly stuff up your first and maybe your second grain attempts. They will either be to moist or to dry. Its virtually impossible to explain to someone how to get that perfect grain moisture level as the exact recipe will vary according to the specific person and the equipment they are using, more than one way to skin a cat so to speak. Follow a tek as a guide but you kinda have to feel it out yourself, you might need to cook the grain a little longer or strain it a bit longer. Don't get to discouraged from failures, I know its hard not to, instead learn from them and you will be one step closer to finding what works best .

Don't worry about manure just yet, one giant leap at a time eh .

If you have a pressure cooker, grain is a LOT easier than cakes. It's very very simple to explain to someone how to get the moisture levels correct.

I just dont want you to scare him off from trying, its easier than the pf tek, though I aqgree 100% you should wait until you have success with the pf tek before moving to grain, just don't be scared about moving on.

The reason I feel the need to put in my 2 cents is that sometimes I really don't agree with your advice Harry, but please try not to take offense to it, just listen and learn.

WBS is EASY, and can be bought from any basic supermarket.

This is how EASY it is to explain to someone how to prepare it -

- Get a pot of water boiling on the stove.

- Turn off the heat.

- Add two or three cups of COLD water to cool the hot water to drop the temp below boiling point.

- Dump in your dry WBS.

- Stir.

- Put a lid on the pot and leave it overnight - it will swell up and absorb the water. If the water is too hot when you put your grain in, some kernels will burst - though if its only a few (<20%) it doesn't matter too much, but your aiming not to pop any. Simply make your water a bit cooler next time if you do (add an extra cup of cold).

- Next day, strain through a big colander.

- Rinse very very well. I find it easier to dump the seed back into the pot, re-fill with tap water to wash it and then strain again - and repeat this 3 or 4 times.

- Drain well - just leave the colander sitting in the sink for 2 hours, or 'shake' the water out of it.

- Load into jars, pressure cook, innoc.

Consistently make perfect grain.

And re: poo - once he gets to the stage of a completely colonised pf jar, then he should already have the skills to pastuerise a bit of poo - its also, IMO, easier than making pf jars, so dont be scared off from trying.

But yes, obviously, you do need to get a pf jar colonised first.

[ENtiTY]

No worries I'll be back in a minute, just going to the bathroom to wash my hands of this mycology business. Apparently my advice only works in my house where a completely different set of natural laws apply. Lucky me

Listen to Hypha, he knows EVERYTHING! I'm off to boil a pot of water in my freezer to make some tea.

Good luck with the bird seed

[XipeTotec]

No worries I'll be back in a minute, just going to the bathroom to wash my hands of this mycology business. Apparently my advice only works in my house where a completely different set of natural laws apply. Lucky me

Listen to Hypha, he knows EVERYTHING! I'm off to boil a pot of water in my freezer to make some tea.

Good luck with the bird seed

lol, thats funny

[Hyphal]

Yeah hilarious...

Harry, I don't remember implying that you would be so stupid that you would try and boil water with your freezer. And I don't remember saying your methods didnt work either. You were clearly trying to point out that you think using WBS as a substrate is hard (and even harder to try and explain to someone how to do it).

There are benefits to using WBS over popcorn, and thats why its the main choice for culturing.

I felt the need to correct your advice, as if that advice was offered to me when I was starting, I would be put off from from even trying grains in the first place, and my first try at grains worked out fine. Therefore I think it's something people should be encouraged to try, not discouraged.

Then I felt the need to show how easy it is to explain to someone how to do it, as you think its impossible to explain.

Ok, so I realise i come off like a pompus prick, so if any experienced myco's disagree or think I'm wrong and should just STFU, please chime in. I was simply trying to help stop the spread of misinformation.

[naja naja]

Grain rule, Fuck PF tek. Never bother with it. Move straight to cased WBS then go to Poo next grow after that. U will never look back.

[ENtiTY]

Ahhhh, so I'm misinforming people... Gotcha

You'll be pleased to know that like I said above, I have washed my hands of the mycology advice giving scenario. No more misinformation coming from me. The stage is your Hypha.

One last thing though. Seeing as Hillbilly is having problems with the PF tek how succesfull do you think he is going to be with WBS? Since he doesn't have the talent for mycology just yet that you did when you first started what makes you think your little WBS "how to" is going to improve his chances of success over all the other clearly written WBS teks about? My advice wasn't about being the technically best method or choice of grain but rather a path that would increase his chances of success. I know for a fact that some people have poor results from WBS and not with popcorn. Try both HB, WBS and popcorn and decide for yourself which is best for your particular circumstances.

Ahhh fuckit! Now I've gotta go wash my hands again.