indigo264nm

Hehehe I got all my species vs common names very confused for a bit from this thread. A.baileyana actually being the Cootamundra Wattle, and A. podalyriifolia being the QLD Silver Wattle. I knew I had learnt these before in plant recognition for cert II.

Yeah let me know as well... . ...though I do have a theory that if you regard yourself as a completely different person then it may be easier to overcome. I have more of a fear of the karmic consequences from what I did as a young kid at the moment, and how my past actions will impact what's to come. Also the fact you show remorse for your actions as a child makes you a step up from the majority of people, alot of which have a hard enough time showing remorse for recent actions. Recognising your better qualities may help to put your mind at ease a bit more, and a also having a conscious determination not to have those qualities you displayed in younger ignorance - basically accepting that you've grown up.

Yeah, I made a big mistake the other night (don't sought out seeds when you've been drinking wine)... I accidently contaminated my White Henbane seeds with N. rustica seeds (thus now useless for the seedring) so give us a yell if anybody wants to take them off my hands. There is quite a bit of seed in the bag, and the majority would probably be H. albus, and the N. rustica seed is older so probably less viable. Free to a good home...

Hehe, luckily I ended up at the selective school on the central coast for 3 years... my grade in particular lacked normal people and the popular group was the biggest group in the grade. The rest were just overlly nerdy (lived and breathed studying - accountant\programming\math teacher stock)All my friends from there are into good music... infact the only way I can describe it was that being alternative was encouraged as opposed to other schools I went to that alternative means outcasted. Scariest shit ever. There were no words to describe the panic I felt going through Olympic park station . Next time I don't think I'll be seeking herbal substitutes - I'll opt for odourless substances and stay in the boiler room the whole day. I definitely think Erowid has played a big part in bringing education to the scene. I grew up on erowid - now I only tend to use it when I'm looking up herbs or something.

Trust me... when I've done my course, and all qualifications necessary for a particular Uni course, I'm moving up that way myself ;). and also trust me that it could be worse... you could be living in the chaos of sydney (which I'm glad I live an hour and a half away from.

BAM!!! I must also confirm that House does indeed own shit. I've always liked Hugh Laurie - it's particularly ammusing watching the old Black Adder episodes and comparing the roles he was playing then to his character in House.

Judging by the fact that a hippy from Lismore is doing Cert III at my TAFE in Sydney (bushing it in a tent with his van out at Narrabeen somewhere), I don't think your chances are good at studying up there (depending on whether you're doing fulltime or not). Down here at our TAFE you can do the cert III course (providing you've done cert II) in a semester but it's pretty full on, and that's why the guy at my TAFE is doing it as he could mentioned only doing it one day a week up north. He once worked at Hazy House, and though that means nothing to me, it may mean something to old time ethno-nerds living up north.

The vein structures on the phyllodes are amazing...

Oooooh, down the track I gotta get some of this stuff growing... one of my big plans is to eventually end up making the perfect dream mix.

Hey people, I'm trying to hunt down some White Sage. I don't care if it's seeds, or an already established plant. The point is I really want to have this plant in my garden as I believe it would be a very powerful and valuable plant to have around. If anybody wants to help me out, I can offer you my eternal love and gratitude (and of course seeds, plants or money in trade ). Cheers, Chris.

I know I can easily buy it, but I have decided lately to start trading for plants if possible, purely because often doing so requires me to expand my propagation practices. Also when I decide to buy things online, I like to make a decent order (which I can't afford at the moment) and don't see the point in making single small orders regularly.

What I meant was regarding slowly moving away from exploring the more complicated approaches of the occult that seems to have heavy geometry, hebrew, and over the top symbolism - and then breaking those symbols down into words (and then into mere syllables representing words) that are supposed to be extremely powerful because of being diluted over thousands of years, and then created into over the top rituals again requiring complex geometry, hebrew etc... As interesting as it all may be, I find there are more simple yet still powerful approaches to obtaining such insight and knowledge. Who the hell wants to do the Middle Pillar ritual everyday for years in order to be ready to advance to a higher level of teachings??? I more meant finding such power and beings from earthly practices as opposed to complicated symbols that man has devised just to give power - and I don't wish to draw and learn from man as much as I want to learn from what sustains man and what man can never replicate.

Hahaha, nah I just was bored on a friday night and have decided to stop drinking after a recent bender. Suddenly I notice my brain racing at a thousand miles an hour again and remember that this has been what I've been trying to shut down, as often the negative thoughts and behaviours (I struggle with some things that isn't all that common for males) start consuming everything - so instead I decided to channel this energy into a rant or rave... I don't get many oppotunities to use my intellect since I dropped out of school and started horticulture hehe. Basically I was just debating for the sake of it. As real as this experience was to me, I am willing to accept that everything I experience isn't even real and all my beliefs are just a way of keeping me entertained throughout my existance instead of resorting to mindless hedonism and a nihilistic approach to life. I did however succeed in turning this into a true 'Spirituality & Philosophy' discussion.

I thought I only had the draft but I found the final copy that I posted onto the erowid experience vaults... So here it is: Intro: This has not been my first time experimenting with plants containing tropane alkaloids, but I will say that this was definitely my most notable experience with this type of plant which happens to be my favourite out of the tropane plants. I am an 18 year old male, 180cm tall and 59kg. Besides from Valium withdrawals I have been in pretty good shape. I am a regular drinker and moderate cigarette smoker. I also take a multivitamin in the morning, and 10-20mg of d-amphetamine sulfate per day for AD\HD. I have experimented with many different substances over the years; I have smoked cannabis for 5 years and have recently cut down on my intake. I have also dabbled with speed, E, ice, ketamine, various pharmaceuticals, alcohol and my favourites always being the trypatmines (LSD, Mushrooms and DMT). Some other entheogens I have taken besides from the tryptamines above are HBWR, Mescaline (San Pedro), Salvia Divinorum and mild dabblings with Datura's and Brugmansia. A few nights previous to this encounter I prepared the herbs roughly in the same manner with the same quantities except resulting in little activity. Perhaps the flower used this time was more potent than the last attempt and the sedatives taken on that night had a role to play in the limited activity. It should be noted that my physical and mental state included withdrawals from taking diazepam in the evenings for 3 months or so and then stopping. The prompt for trying the dream mix once again was knowing that the last time I withdrew from diazepam, I got horrible and vivid nightmares which I have never experienced that intensely before. I could feel myself waking up frequently during the evenings, despite taking 50mg of Seroquel to sedate me. I decided I wanted to experience some intense and hopefully prophetic dreams, but things ended up very differently indeed. This experience was void of any sedative medication, although some wine was consumed earlier in the evening and 10mg of d-amphetamine sulfate in the afternoon. Growing Gains Respect: I have been raising this Brugmansia since it was only a young cutting and this has been the first flowering. I place an important emphasis on raising these types of plants with great care and respect. An experience smoking Brugmansia leaf a combined with cannabis a couple of years ago was quite powerful, but served as a warning sign. It wasn’t ready to except me. That experience by memory wasn’t scary – more just like a sudden vision flashing with vicious intensity, and having a dominate orange\red colour scheme in a jungle at night, illuminated by a large fire burning in the middle of a gathering… I saw a tribal following, with a Lady on a throne. They appeared to be preparing for war, so I assumed she was presenting herself to me as a fast and vicious goddess of the jungle. I left the foliage on the young tree and raised it with care. Dose: T:05- hrs = 10mg of D-amphetamine Sulfate (swallowed) T:04- hrs = Glass of wine T:03.5+ hrs = Glass of wine T:02+ hrs = Glass of wine T:01+ hrs = Glass of wine T:00+ hrs = 1\3rd of a B. candida flower & 15 C. zacatechichi leaves (liquid infusion swollowed) T:0.5+ hrs = 1\3rd of B. candida flower & 10 C. zacatechichi (smoked) Preparation: The basic ingredient ratios for the brew were about 1\3rd of a Brugmansia candida flower combined with roughly 15 leaves of a Calea zacatechichi plant – both ingredients chopped finely. A pot with roughly 500mL was brought to a boil and the two herbs were added, and left to boil for another 20-30 minutes with two peppermint and one camomile tea bags for flavouring. Another 1\3rd of the Brugmansia flower was rolled into a joint with about 5-10 chopped Calea leaves. It was sweetened to taste; ice cubes were added until lukewarm and it was all strained. After consumption of the tea I waited and relaxed for about 20 minutes before going and smoking the rest of the mixture in small joint. Not long after that did I start to experience the first telltale tropane effect for me, being a strange taste in my mouth that lasts for at least 24 hours after ingestion. The second symptom was starting to lose co-ordination and depth perception, with my mucous membranes drying up. I felt sick, like my stomach didn’t want water, despite how dry my mouth felt. I decided it was time to say goodnight to my family and depart. I got into my bed, put some gentle music on (Boards of Canada) and tried to get some sleep. It was about 10:30pm at this point. Slowly and slowly did I get sucked into the all familiar feeling that insomniacs experience - not asleep but neither awake, yet trailing off on distant thought patterns. This continued on as my delirium began to grow over the hours. I felt that I also gained a profound increase in night vision ability. I had to turn the light on a couple of times as I was seeing ants carrying food from my window to the door, or spiders on the window above me. Obviously the Brugmansia was aware of my phobia for insects, but luckily I have worked on these phobias with the assistance of LSD and nature, and was able to tell myself that those weren’t real. I believe this was the first test for me. It would have been perhaps 2am at a guess, when I felt reality and the environment around me dissolve, and suddenly I was at rest. (Note: I believed I turned the light off at this stage). I cannot say all of what happened during this time but I vaguely recall having some vivid dreams until I was suddenly awoken, yet still in a heavy trance. A young lady that I didn’t recognise had turned the light on. She felt so familiar, but I gathered that I was also very heavily affected and didn’t remember why she had to stay at my place. Even her being a close friend was a possibility in my mind. She asked where she could sleep, so I told her of a fold out lounge downstairs or a mattress under my brother’s bed. She left for a few minutes and returned saying she didn’t want to wake the family. She opted to sleep on my double mattress with me. There were no sexual or intimate gestures involved other then when she placed a hand gently on the side of mine, without even making eye contact. Her hand appeared most unusual but I was in no state of mind to absorb and process such detail. I turned the light off and she appeared to sleep despite me knowing that she was always awake. She moved down a bit in position so we were not facing head to head with each other. The moon light coming through the window seemed to cast a black and white spell on everything. I believe the girl seemed to have very white skin under the moon, and her clothes were very basic yet still modern – the colours were black with parts of blue in different places. I decided to let her rest and try to get further dreams which took a while of me tossing and turning. I also believe that showing purity of heart that remained untainted by sexual urges (she was beautiful) was the second test. The next stage was the most blurry. I felt I was constantly going in and out of consciousness into delirious encounters involving talking to friends. Each time I stopped talking to one them I realised that I firmly could tell myself that this was all an effect of the drug and they weren’t real. I knew that if I touched them they would disappear. Whenever this realisation occurred, my environment dissolved again, bringing me back to my normal room, with a still unknown girl lying very still next to me. I apologised for rambling delirious rubbish and explained I was heavily under the influence of a substance. What made talking to her feel real was the fact that I had easily recognised that when communicating I was talking using my chest, throat and mouth to propel words, whilst the communications with my friends whilst dreaming felt as if there was literally myself and another person discussing something inside my own brain and perception. I discovered this whilst waking up mid-sentence from a dream and hearing\feeling my voice propel the second part of the sentence, but not the first part. This type of test continued in various ways or forms until perhaps 5:30am - including the infamous cigarette vanishing from hand effect A LOT of times. Every time this happened I thought ‘I don’t smoke in my own room – where did my cigarette go? – I ran out of cigarettes this afternoon! – This is not real!’ I continued reinforcing to myself that these were just illusions from the Brugmansia and my head is not completely lost. I felt like the tests had all finished for now (instead of just random mind-fucking encounters with friends that I had to establish as not real each time) and although I tried to ask her name, the words would not properly form and she gave no answer. I rolled over for a little bit, and when I looked back the face seemed to be covered in a blue facial moisturising mask thingy instead. She smiled and looked away embarrassed, so I figured she thought I wasn’t going to wake up for a while and she was bored. Later reading into her various appearances displayed to me, she liked to use symbols to express that she can be fearless, loving, beautiful, ugly, mysterious and human all at once. I said goodnight for the last time and fell asleep. I woke up half an hour. I could hear my father’s alarm for work ringing. It was approximately 6:45am and the girl had gone from my room, yet I could see the arrangement of the covers indicating that a second person had indeed slept in the bed. I looked around with little success, felt a bit more sober and back to reality and just figured she had to work and needed a place to crash for that reason. I had a shower, and I saw in the bathroom some strong blue moisturising stuff that had been used but placed in a different position. All these things told me that a girl had slept in my bed last night. It confused me. I got tested by Brugmansia 2 more times by answering mobile calls from people I knew. Both times I was actually not carrying my mobile or a phone of any description, and quickly became aware of that trick. Though when my friend Josh ‘called’ I asked about a girl staying at mine, and he told me that when he drove past my house very late a girl was at my front door and he talked to her. Josh broke up before I could ask who she was, and I realised then I was without my phone and Josh would not call at 7am anyway. I was still obviously affected to some degree but could compose myself at least. I was still determined to find out who this girl was, asking friends and telling them briefly of my story… convinced utterly that she was not a hallucination, as all my communication with her seemed quite real as opposed to the dream hallucinations. When she touched me, I could actually feel her whereas the other hallucinations seemed to be like projections sent from my own brain and had no physical basis in my own dream world. It has been about T: 24+ hours since I consumed the mixture. My pupils are still dilated and I feel much more in tune with natural surroundings (understood a conversation between birds, and being able to listen to my plants). Earlier this afternoon I asked my mother if she saw the person that stayed over last night. I explained I was half asleep and told her to sleep on the sofa bed downstairs. My mother told me that at 3am she was sleeping on the fold out herself (“I didn’t want to wake your family.”) My mother was also a little spooked by the concept, as all the doors were locked yet she remembers a light being on in my room around 3am whereas I remember turning it off, sleeping and getting woken up with the light on. I told her it could have been a crazy dream from the dream mixture I prepared; despite neither of us being fully convinced that it was just a dream. It took me a little bit to sink in. My only basis of reality during that whole experience was centred on coming back to my bed after many of my confusing dreams that I felt forced to prove my strength of mind in. I quickly realised that SHE was the Brugmansia spirit manifesting as a beautiful young woman to me, except actively testing me to earn her respect by proving myself to her. Honestly everything else happened as it would in reality whilst I was awake and she was lying next to me. These things included letting the cat out of my room, turning the lights off or going to the toilet and such, returning to find her still there unlike with any of the other hallucinations I saw of people I knew. It is in these situations that I believe Calea gave me assitance by improving the clarity and cognitive functions during dream states. I understand now that she has accepted me as her pupil if I so wished to take that road, but I realise how extremely powerful she is. I feel some strong bond with her, yet I do not know for certain whether I shall return for more lessons. I cannot stress enough how much I am amazed at her caring and protective side – I felt so safe around her without even contemplating that I was lying next to a powerful plant spirit. It was not what I expected, that is for certain… even if nothing else is certain under the spell of this sly and mysterious entity. Despite how I am now aware that she was not an ordinary human girl, here is how utterly convinced she had me before it clicked: "Interesting.. very interesting. I was in a state of mild-delirium last night\this morning, induced by brug flower (and some calea leaves) to promote lucid dreaming. With my extremely broken sleep at present, and in my state of talking to people who weren't there, by memory I would say that the physical symptoms aren't worth it in hindsite, but I think I conducted it pretty well. Kinda teaches you how fucked up reality is, (like when you have the flu). Anyway, what made this particularly interesting (besides from cigarettes and stuff vanishing from my hands) was the fact that a girl\lady whom I don't know and didn't talk to (by memory) somehow made it into my bed, and I didn't leave my room at all. I don't know what time it was, who it was, and I'm beginning to think that this person might not actually be real (or perhaps she got freaked out by half sentances spoken outloud to people I was seeing in my dreams). Can anybody shed some light on this on this person, it was really strange. Edit: It's driving me insane, I need to find out if this person was real or not as I recall conversing with several different friends who weren't there. Fuck, like I only got a phone call off shindler about a bit over an hour ago. As soon as I 'got off the phone' I realised that didn't have a phone in that room or in my possession. Craaaazy shit. My eyes are supposed to take about 24hrs before vision will come back properly (as everything is more blurred from dilated pupils).Well my night ended up anything but boring, AND I was in my own room by myself the whole night." --- Journal Entry - 18th of Jan 2006 - 7:01am Be careful and take great care with her. She'll crush you if you cross her. Love and light, Chris.

After thinking about what I just wrote, does anybody else notice that the more answers you find - the more questions you have??? To the extent that from many experiences questioning ego and reality, you begin to realise that the answers are infinite, and ultimately then realise that there will never be anything concrete to explain anything we experience other than what we create for ourselves??? I think our system of logic and reason is just what we use to fill time in otherwise meaningless lives. ...but then that concept is just a system of logic and reason. God my brain is on overdrive tonight, looks like I won't be sleeping much.

It would make sense in alot of respects, but I didn't feel as if she was protecting me or she had my interests at heart. She was just there. I wasn't scared at any point, nor did I feel threatened because I knew my intentions were innocent and trusted it and also myself not to lose control (even though I wasn't expecting anything other than vivid dreams to begin with). Really I felt that it was Brugmansia manifesting itself to me, to try and mess with my head even more, because I could already see through the unreality around me by remembering I was under the influence. I honestly felt like everything I experienced that night was a test to see how I could handle the trickery. She also changed from beautiful to ugly, and then downright strange in appearance whilst maintaining the same basic shape and physical attributes. Why would I create such things??? What is the strange and a little too complicated idea of getting a 'phone call from a friend' in the morning which tried to trick me into thinking further that there was a girl outside my house around the same time one ended up in my room??? Why would my mind try and tell me that there was somebody there but my mind also make this conversation to convince me, and then make then break up before he would tell me who she actually was??? Her continued presence and little signs to try and fool me into thinking a person actually stayed in my room seems way more complicated than most stories of tropane delerium found on erowid... though I am also willing to accept that my mind is more complicated than most (for better in some ways - but most of the time for worse). To sum up what I'm trying to say - The whole reason I would experiment with entheogens is because science can explain alot of things, but with explaining alot of things comes creating more things that can't be explained. I am searching for answers that science simply can't explain, and I think never will be able to. There comes to a point when we are becoming hindered by a scientific reason to justify everything we come across. Modern psychology is based purely on theoreticals, with the only thing truly solid scientifically being behaviourism - which is just way too simple. Beyond that there is nothing concrete that can be truly proven from any of the perspectives that developed in psychology afterwards, as ultimately how can you prove what happens inside a mind if you can't even explain what a mind is in the first place??? Even biologically, you can say that serotonin levels seem to have a direct impact on mood but ultimately you can't explain why it has a direct impact on moods... only that it does. Science just proves the physical (or otherwise creates a hypothesis using a train of logic that can't be broken at that point of time), but our perception isn't physically based and we only percieve things around us in relation to our own minds. Whats the point trying to find a truth in an existance that can never be true. Do you think in 100 years time that we will be using the same scientific laws and reasons that we do today??? ...not trying to be critical of you by any means (I just got stuck in a rant ), as I understand you weren't criticising my experience. Just really I think you should try going with your heart, because maybe your brain is using science as a defence mechanism . You do raise some very thoughtful points though, which is obvious otherwise I wouldn't have tried to disprove them hehe. To everybody else, thanks for all your replies. I was considering posting it ever since it happened but didn't know whether I should for some reason. I'm glad you all enjoyed reading it, and that it showed a different side to the plant not commonly heard about to others... I will say that if you intend on experimenting, be very careful and start extremely small and don't think whether or not you will get such shamanic effects is dose related and up it on that basis. The exact same dose 3 nights before did not affect me at all beside from physical - yet this time from a different flower managed to throw me in further than I imagined possible from such an ammount.

Acacia podalyriifolia sounds interesting, and are beautiful plants... I will look around, by memory we might even have one on the TAFE grounds in the native area down the back. Something vague tells me that it would probably be a QLD Silver Wattle though so lets hope I'm wrong about that. As for Claybush I'll look into that as well - the hardest part would be seeking out a good source to take material from. Might just opt for something easier, as there are plenty of other natives that I could do but I wanted to go acacias purely because I've had a soft spot since a little kid remembering the puffs of yellow everywhere when bushwalking during spring. I probably will still make a couple of trays up and end up with many Acacia seedlings to raise and give away down the track. P.S. Darcy - you're right. My bad, I just vaguely remembered it saying rooted cutting when I ordered it (a while ago), but I've ordered many plants from different places and am probably just used to seeing it written all the time hehe.

One word - Beautiful.

One of the reasons they are so incorrect most of the time is because books get released with the correct tabs, and those tabs are subject to copyright.

You have basically said what has been on the back of my mind for years. Basically I think it's possible in time, as our evolution has resulted initially from spirituality, and in the recent era (that is slowly changing) it has been science. Basically I hope that we are moving towards an aeon where magick and technology are fused. I don't think it's too far away, providing we don't kill ourselves first.

I passed out one night camping years and my mates got into the vial of x5 in my bag (when it was legal) because I said they could have a taste if they wished. One girl reported that she felt like she was a piece of cake, getting split 8 ways. Also a friend told me that when he tried it, his tounge felt like it turned into the texture of everything he looked at - such as his computer desk, or carpet. Since when has Sally been usual anyway??? It has to be one of the most unusual experiences I have ever felt.

As a young person I will have to say that this is sadly true. I have talked to a fair few people over my teenage years (none of which I have admired or liked) that have eaten acid just to get high (and not lying as their hallucinations may sound). All they talk about is how fucked they got and that they saw stupid crazy shit like Simpsons characters etc. From being around the same age as the people were when they told me, and since getting so many profound insights and experiences from such substances, it makes me realise how some people experience only what their minds are capable of (not from intelligence - just will) in the way they approach life... which is bullshit. You can find liberation and mind expansion from such substances... so what is the point of wasting them on getting fucked up when there is a wide variety of pills, stims, opiates and downers available on the market. Me??? I waited 4 years (after first wanting to try it) before hunting down and toying with spice, purely because I believed I wasn't ready for it. Because I took that approach I realised it wasn't as scary as expected, and that is because I had changed my mindset in such time to accept such an experience. I am only 18 and over my teenage years have grown and changed purely towards the path of wanting to expand my mind, evolve and in the end of this lifetime (unlike my others) be truly happy. It is because of the reasons above that most people confuse me.

Despite the fact that it is probably fiction, if you read the sequel (or even the first one more carefully) you will realise that the pipe allowed a good deal of the mixture to go into his mouth before combustion. This means that the effects of the shrooms were from ingestion and not inhalation. "There continues to be controversy around whether or not smoking psilocybin/psilocin containing mushrooms can produce a psychoactive effect. On the one side, are those who claim to have tried it and experienced effects. On the other are those who state that psilocybin and psilocin break down at low enough temperatures that a flame would destroy them, as well as those who have tried this method and experienced no effects. There is some hypothesis that the issue results from Carlos Castaneda's descriptions, in The Teachings of Don Juan, of a smoking blend used by his teacher. Castaneda describes a blend of 5 plants, including sage and dried, powdered psilocybe mushrooms...the other 3 plants are not identified. We have received a few experience reports from those who have tried this method." ---http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_smoked.shtml

I met an entity a month ago... it was from Brugmansia, and the first ever real visable encounter despite experimenting with shrooms, cid, spice and pedro. The reason why I know it was an entity was purely because that unlike every other 'person' I 'encountered' in my bedroom that strange and mysterious night, this was the only person that stayed there all night with me and also the only person I didn't recognise as somebody I knew. Everybody else vanished once I realised they were hallucinations, whereas this person was there the whole time. This confused the hell out of me because I didn't know the whole next day whether this person was real or merely a hallucination. Now I know it was neither. If you're interested I can give you the rough draft of the experience I submitted to erowid, but hasn't been posted. The experience post had a lot of editting and changing as usual with any final publication I write, but the draft gives the gist of things... I was considering whether I should post the draft on here (or on EBA) but still don't know if I should. The other entities I have met were occult related, but I couldn't see it like I saw the one above...with the most memorable, there were insane circumstances that went down that evening, I felt reality bend around me, and then I knew it was there (as did my companion who was into similar things). We both knew it was there for me, I felt it, and leading up to it I had been really crazy and my energies dangeriously scattered. I remember laying in bed in the hotel room, my friend and I both scared, and him saying "It says it's not here for me.". At that stage I didn't know what to do, so did the only thing I could think of (which I now realise how dangereous it was). I invoked it, went into convulsions, and woke up the next morning after seeing cryptic visions. I have drifted away from such practices and more moving towards exploring a more shamanistic path, despite that on and off I still read such literature for personal growth and exploration.

I tried recently germing Lophs without any of the described setup. I did get some to come up but my failure was keeping them alive... but I accept that it was merely an experiment and didn't put the care and effort into making the soil mix (as I usually do) and researching the correct environment for their desired conditions and taking care of them once they sprout. My point is that I live north of Sydney and managed to get germination easily with the typical small tray and a layer of vermiculite on top, merely being inside a little plastic container for humidity, in my grow room (my brothers ex-cubby house with a HPS running). All I needed to do was spray the top every couple of days and they came up fine.