friendly
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According to Trout's notes on Some Other Succulents, several Delosperma species were assayed by TLC and showed tryptamine bands. He suspected tryptamine alkaloids might be present in Sceletium species although no species were tested.
As of yet, no one seems to have followed through on this line of research.
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Waterdragon's link gets one to the GRIN-NPGS database for Nymphaea species.
According to them, N. caerulea=N. ampla.
N. ampla is the white water lily of Central America mentioned in Plants of the Gods as being used by the ancient Mayans for identical purposes as N. caerulea was used by the Egyptians.
It's no wonder; they're the same species.
Now I can stop looking for N. ampla; I've already got it.
CRC Ethnobotany Desk Reference lists N. odorata as being used as an anodyne and for cough, among other uses.
Seeing as it is also used as an eyewash, for mouth ailments and throat irritation, there would be less likliehood that it is toxic.
Based on this entry, I would assume there is some activity. Anodyne (pain relief) and cough relief are two symptoms which could indicate there is potential psychoactivity.
I suggest cautious experimentation; start with a low dose and gradually work upwards until either psychoactivity or toxic reaction is noticed.
I read a report by someone from South Africa that mentioned that when younger, this person and a friend pulled up some N. caerulea roots from the bottom of a pond and ingested them with good results.
Has anyone else tried the root/rhizome?
[ 14. December 2003, 08:30: Message edited by: friendly ]
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In Ayurvedic medicine, one use for A. gramineous root is to 'counteract the toxic effects of cannabis', these being the body load and mental fog.
One use for Sceletium t. in Africa is to potentiate weak cannabis.
Acorus gramineus 5x powder, Sceletium tortuosum powder and cannabis were mixed together and smoked in a joint. (I have a medical cannabis card; it's legal for me. Do not break the law or bad things will happen to you. This has been a public service announcement.)
The resultant effect was one of strong mental clarity coupled with high psychic energy and no body load.
I highly (sic) recommend this combination.
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"XXXXX's Notes on Some other Succulents" mentions an unconfirmed report of mesembrine alkaloids in C.edulis.
C. edulis, also known as 'hottentot fig' is cultivated in Africa for it's sweet edible fruit.
This succulent (and some close relatives) is planted all alongside the freeways of Southern California and successful bioassays were reported a few years back when there was a major investigation of mesembs undertaken by local entheothusiasts.
Some of these reports should still be in the Spiritplants archives.
I remember there was quite a flurry of activity for a while, with new active species being reported regularly.
I have a paper here somewhere that details the percentages of mesembrine compared to Sceletium tortuosum in a number of different mesembs.
My assistant has taken it home to read. I will get him to return it and will post the statistics here.
As I recall, there was a spate of bogus Sceletium that made the rounds in the US a few years back that was really a Carpobrutus species and was reported to be weak in comparison, but still active.
I will have to get that paper; I recall there being some toxicity other than from oxalates in some Carpobrutus species, but am not certain.
Memory is such an unreliable tool...
[ 14. December 2003, 03:04: Message edited by: friendly ]
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In 1998, the first year of commercial Sceletium harvest of cultivated material 16 kilos were obtained.
Omchi got 7 and a Japanese consortium got the other 9, which they converted into Mesembrine and put 1 mg doses onto blotters for which they asked $8.00 US each on quantities of 500. I was approached about marketing these in the US, but declined due to the exorbitant price and the delivery system.
Imagine trying to covince an officer of the law that those blotters are Mesembrine and not what they look like.
The blotters were effective, but you could get the same effect from 50 cents worth of snorted Sceletium, and without the paranoia of carrying around what would be undoubtedly mistaken for acid if viewed by the law.
I think I still have a few of these samples around.
Recently, a Canadian firm has been commercially producing a crude Sceletium tortuosum 5x. Once again, I have to ask why?
If 50mg snorted is just fine, why do you need a dose that is only 10 mg?
I can see making such an extract for personal use, but not for sale.
Most people would not be able to estimate such a small amount, and too much Sceletium is unpleasant and can be dangerous; it is as potent a selective serontonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) as prozac, zoloft or any of that class of anti-depressants.
Sceletium should not be used by anyone using MAOI's, SSRI's or 5-htp and be used with caution by those using St. John' Wort.
Incautious use can precipitate an episode of Serotonin Syndrome, which can be fatal.
I speak from first hand experience.
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Tincture: it gets stranger, yet.
Futher conversation with my girlfriend reveals that the dream was at 6:30 and the dishes broke at 7:30.
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Heating the dried plant material (or drying it for that matter) in an oven set to 175 degrees farenheit (slightly warmer than warm oven) removes most of the oxalates and improves the strength of the actives.
Heat dry material for 1 hour; heat wet material until completely dry.
Aptenia cordifolia was tested and found to contain approximately 12% of the Mesembrine of Sceletium species.
[ 12. December 2003, 03:31: Message edited by: friendly ]
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I obtained .3 gram of black tar resin from the baking dish, with some being unremovable and some stuck to the razor blade. Easily .4g total.
It won't dry any further without a heat lamp.
Looks like 5-6% yield, about the same as I got from refluxing with etoh and water.
Wonder how it'll compare to the lotus flower 10x, which I also haven't yet had time to assay.
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In the midwest of the USA they smoke a lot of Artemisia annua ("Sweet Annie").
Artemisia absinthum foliage is used in Mexico to adulterate or substitute for Cannabis.
Cecropia mexicana also is reported to be used as a substitute, with some people reporting sucess.
Scutellaria baicalensis ("mad dog skullcap")foliage is quite effective as is the foliage of various Pedicularis species.
Artemisia capillaris has been reportedly used as a substitute, as well.
(see any pattern here?)
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I have in front of me now a nice Nelumbo nucifera (sacred lotus) flower 10x full spectrum no excipient powder extract.
So many herbs; so litle time...I hope I'll get to bioassay it soon.
I need to wait a few days more to make sure I'm clear of the lingering subtle effects of the N. alba seed tincture, though.
It should be available soon, if anyone is interested.
I doubt it would be stopped by customs...
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Hi Theo.
More tincture revelations:
I had gone home and was sitting around the house this ewvening when the phone rang and it was my girlfriend.
We spoke for a short while and I remembered a dream I had that woke me up at 6:30 this morning after being unable to sleep all night and finaly falling out at around 5:00 am.
In the dream I was in the greenhouse on her farm tending to my cacti.
The door was open slightly behind me to the right.
Suddenly, there was a very loud crash of breaking glass and she began to scream from outside the door that all her antique dishes had broken. I stood in the doorway of the greenhouse trying to figure out what I had to do with it and if I was being blamed. Then I woke up, grateful that it was only a dream.
I went through the day and forgot about it until I spoke with her a half hour ago.
She then told me that at 6:30 am this morning she had dropped her antique plates on the kitchen floor while rearranging the cabinet and several had broken, although not the best ones.
Usually when I take a lily product it puts me in and out of the afterlife/other world for three days, but this tincture did not seem to have the visionary aspects I am used to.
It seemed more stimulating. Also, I had two busy days where so much was going on outside I never got a chance to go inside and I assumed the experience was over. Now I'm not so sure.
The dream certainly fits in with character of the vision of my deceased mother on Blue Lily; something taken from the dream world that is reality in this one.
And the vision was given in just one scene, simply and direct, as they all have been; just a glimpse before being yanked back.
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Usually reagent grade is good enough.
However, read the label for impurities and other additives before you buy.
A good way to test the purity of solvents on hand is to evaporate a little off in a glass petri dish and see if any residue remains. If no residue remains, the solvent is clean.
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Mescalito: Did you get my email?
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Hi Torsten. Yes, I did. No solids.
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I have some seeds I can give you, but am in the USA. Is there a problem with sending seeds from here to there?
There should be none with Lotus as it is ubiquitous, but I have had packages of other products (Artemisia capillaris) returned because they contained seeds in with the herb.
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47 grams of N. alba seeds with some smnall bits of pod still attached were crushed in a blender and combined with 200ml of 92% etoh in an inert closed vessel and shaken daily for two weeks, then once weekly for ten weeks. Decanted product was 135 ml.
Three eyedroppers of this tincture (measured at 2ml total) were put into half a cup of distilled water and orally ingested.
Effects began within 30 minutes and continued unabated for 8 hours minimum.
Effects included giddiness, euphoria, mania (inability to stop talking), slight dizziness and enhanced sense of awe and wonder. A slight difficulty in focusing vision was noticed, but this was not enough to interfere with enjoyment.
Some slight reduction in sexual performance was noted. Again, nothing severe enough to interfere with enjoyment.
While this is not a psychedelic, the awareness of universality was noticably enhanced, and a sense of awe and wonder at the new world being made manifest was predominant.
Today, I am more able to guage the effects of yesterday's experiment; the tincture is well worth making and the experience is first rate.
I had one of the most remarkable (for it's newness) and enjoyable experiences I can remember in a long time. The effects are unlike any other lily productI have tried, with far less body load and a higher level of euphoria.
I would have to say that the seeds are the strongest part of the plant I have so far tested.
I would recommend it to anyone in reasonable health. I'm curious to see if the effects are further strengthed by increasing the dose; I see no reason why they shouldn't be, and that would be something quite wonderful, IMHO.
Next experiment is to make a tincture of N. caerulea seeds.
Several people to whom I have spoken about cultivation of this plant tell me that seeds rarely germinate; the plant reproduces from seedlings that form on the edge of the lily pad and float off when they are of a large enough size to survive on their own.
I have not witnessed this, living in a colder climate where the tropical water lilies do not flourish, but would love to hear from any who have first hand experience with cultivation or knowledge in this area.
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I just decanted such an extract. I soaked the flowers for six months, although two weeks should be more than adequate.
Soaking and shaking are enough and only one extraction in necessary.
I decided to do an acetone extraction after doing an ethanol and water extraction and getting a very low yield. The result I got from smoking the flowers convinced me there was either a lot of many alkaloids (which databases confirm) or a bit of a very strong one.
Generally, alkaloids are very soluable in alcohol and water, so I was surprised at the low return.
I evaporated the acetone off with a fan in a well-ventilated area and the residue seems to have two components; one is a brownish semi-crystalline powder that sticks to the sides and bottom of the evaporating dish, the other a brownish oil that I think will dry into the powder elsewhere in the dish.
I used seven grams of flowers and enough acetone to completely cover them.
I shook this at first every day for two weeks, then once a week for the remainder of the time the flowers soaked.
Judging by the amount of residue in the evaporating dish, I would assume about 1 gram of dry material. I used dried flower petals rather than fresh.
I recently posted a remark about experimenting with an Nymphea abla seed tincture that I concocted. That one is in the 'Secrets of Lily and Lotus' thread.
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Hello All: This is friendly from Om-Chi Herbs.
I am currently working on a book on Nymphaea caerulea (Blue Lily), Nymphaea alba, Nymphaea ampla, other related species and Nelumbo nucifera(Sacred Lotus) as a follow up to the articles in ER and am compiling experience reports for possible inclusion. I would appreciate anything anyone would be willing to contribute on the subject, whether it is favorable or not.
Your anonymity is guaranteed unless you should decide you want to be quoted, in which case I will give full credit for anything used.
You can either respond in this forum or by email.
The first visionary experiences I had were with N. alba flowers, after smoking them the day after I had smoked Blue Lily. I fell into a dream state and was shown my first visions of the Egyptian paradise, which I did not recognize as such until later.
Recently the plant has put me in both worlds at once, with one foot in each and straddling the line between this life and the afterlife; the spiritual position of the priest or shaman.
Most of the visions recently have been regarding the nature of the bloody sacrifice, the intentional transiting of the life force from one realm to the other.
I have never been inclined to kill anything except for food, but these visions have given me an understanding of the ritual and the reasons for it that I doubt I would have acquired otherwise. This does not mean that I have changed my stance on killing, though.
Most recently my deceased mother appeared to me during a blue lily experience (the first and only time since her death several years ago) in a seeming attempt to tell me of a danger involving my vehicle. When I put it up on the lift, the left front tire had a large bubble in it on the tread that could have blown at any time.
I'm still thinking that one through.
Today I've been sampling a Nymphaea alba seed tincture made some time ago upon hearing that the seeds were the most potent part of the plant, something I have been wanting to test for accuracy.
While one experiment is not conclusive, the strength does seems to be quite considerable for the amount consumed.
I took three eyedroppers in a half glass of water and within fifteen minutes could feel the signature "relax- it's not that important, whatever it is" vibe beginning to take hold.
All day long so far--about four hours--I have been extremely lilified (mentally very energetic, but also physically lethargic at times) with a constant flow of creative ideas and too much inertia to follow through; the classic "it can wait till later" mode that I often experience with any Lily product.
I have heard from sources that the root is also active, but have yet to gather significant information or bioassay any myself.
There is considerable euphoria which can translate into action with this tincture, not like the other lily experiments I have tried. The inertia outweighed the ability of the euphoria to motivate in those cases.
I am currently drying out an acetone extract of N. nucifera which seems to have both a crystalline and an oil component, but it will probably take a week for it to be ready to try.
I find that fruit juice works nearly equally well as a menstruum as alcohol for making a beverage. Soak the flowers at least overnight to 24 hours. If kept in a warm place and for a longer period of time, fermentation might occur and you could end up with a lily-fortified wine of a different nature than made by just soaking the flowers.
I know of no one who has yet tried this.
Cranblueberry juice masks the taste of the flowers quite well, if you are using juice to make an extract.
Be careful though, as the juice extract comes on much more smoothly than does smoking and until you are challenged to do something, you might not recognize that it is beyond your abilities at the time.
In one of Emboden's papers, he mentions that during WW I, when no o. was available in South Africa due to England not letting the Germans have any from India, the African surgeons found that N. alba extract made a quite successful substitute for anaesthesia and surgery.
Mandrake
in Ethnobotany
Posted
Richter's (www.richters.com) in Canada lists them, but I don't know if you can get them through customs.