drugo

It's all good botanika, I'm new to this highly disconnected form of communicating and a lot of the ins and outs are foriegn to me. Your divergent topics and insights are what made me want to hear your opinion more and more as I value it. Sorry for misintepretation. Peace.

Here is a very short argument I recently wrote which a few of you might enjoy. I thought it would be rather appropriate given my name on this forum. Criticism is desired In brief, the paper is a critique on a recent publication from the Anthropologist Dobkin De Rios, in specific her claim that ayahuasca is traditionally used as a tool for 'brainwashing'. The argument touches on values and the nature of education. Substances that offer altered states of consciousness have been consumed by humans in culturally sanctioned contexts since time immemorial. Whether it be tea, LSD, alcohol, or ayahuasca, the consumption of such substances function in various culturally and socially valid processes throughout the world. The various functions of the Amazonian brew ayahuasca are currently a contentious area of study for academics. Some thinkers (De Rios 2008:16) claim that ayahuasca is traditionally used by Amazonian shamans in rites of passage rituals to ‘brain-wash’ the young into adopting particular beliefs and values. However it seems that this fails to recognise that the ability of the young to critically judge is highly indebted to particular adopted ways of being in the world. I argue that, in this sense, the distinction between brain-washing and educating is marked by a value judgement. The anthropologist Eduardo Luna (2000) suggests that in the Amazonian regions of Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Brazil and Colombia there are seventy-two particular cultures that incorporate various uses of the hallucinogenic brew ayahuasca. In contrast to the demonisation of hallucinogenic drugs in Western societies, certain Amazonian cultures maintain that ayahuasca is a fundamentally important part of their world. The variety of ayahuasca practices are known to have emerged from five thousand years of cultivation (ibid). Narby (1999:154) suggests that ayahuasca shamanism resembles an academic discipline. He states (ibid): 'with its practitioners, fundamental researchers, and schools of thought it is a way of apprehending the world that evolves constantly. One thing is certain: Both indigenous and mestizo shamans consider people like the Shipibo-Conibo, the Tukano, the Kamsa, and the Huitoto as the equivalents to universities such as Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, and the Sorbonne; they are the highest reference in the matters of knowledge.' In contemporary Amazonian practice the brew is used most commonly as a tool for exploring techniques of divination and healing. Although these are the more common characteristics of ayahuasca use, the brew is also used for particular rites of passage rituals for supporting ontological truths such as religious beliefs and cultural norms. For example, Reichel-Dolmatoff (1971:174) regarding a Tukano ayahuasca ritual describes ‘On awakening from trance, the individual remains convinced of the truth of religious teachings... The voice of the kumu [shaman] has guided him and has explained everything to him in detail’. The beliefs and values which the Tukano individual embodies from their cultural surroundings are validated and strengthened by their teacher and his practice. For the Tukano, the visions of particular Gods in the ayahuasca ritual are anticipated by both the shaman and the initiate as a lived experience of their culture. In describing this process as brainwashing rather than educating, the choice of words indicates less the role of ayahuasca, and more, the particular values of the individual describing Tukano culture. Studying Amazonian culture since the 1960s, the anthropologist Dobkin De Rios suggests (2008:16) that ayahuasca is used as a ‘psycho-technology’ for ‘mind control’. She compares her universalised notion of Amazonian ayahuasca practice to Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World, ‘a totalitarian society where the world was controlled chemically, and the population was coerced into loving servitude’ (ibid:17). De Rios argues that ayahuasca creates suggestibility; ‘a process where one or more persons cause one or more individuals to change without a critical response of their judgement, opinions, attitudes, or patterns of behaviour’. However, it seems that De Rios fails to recognise that an individual’s propensity to critically respond, judge, have opinions, attitudes, or patterns of behaviour are fundamentally rooted in culturally adopted ways of being. She suggests that whilst under the tutelage of a shaman and ayahuasca ‘individuals have increased susceptibility of accepting or responding to specific statements... such as agreeing that they see a particular deity’ (ibid). She seems to imply that the initiate is confused into believing that they observe fundamental beliefs of their culture. As previously stated, it appears that the distinction between a process of brain-washing or educating is commonly constructed by a value judgement. For certain Western university initiates, the experience of sitting in a lecture theatre under the tutelage of a professor illustrates a similar process to the ‘brain-washing’ Amazonian ayahuasca ritual. Although the professor is not facilitating the educational process with mind altering plant substances, they commonly use mind altering performances, equipped with convincing visual iconographies projecting ideas, beliefs and values onto large colour screens in dark silent rooms. These examples of ayahuasca rituals and university rituals represent cultural processes for the exchange of knowledge. Initiates, or students, enter these knowledgeable contexts with anticipated ideas and beliefs which are fundamental. This anticipation emerges from an embodied experience indebted to growing up in a particular culture with particular beliefs and values. For example, the sociologist Max Weber (1930:180) suggests that Western culture is historically indebted to a rational orientation from Christian asceticism. Orientation in this sense does not simply emerge through knowledgeable institutions such as school and university, rather it permeates through culture creating common understandings. The anticipation an individual embodies entering into influential rites of passage experiences such as ayahuasca rituals or a university context is fundamentally indebted to the individual’s cultural orientation. De Rios (2008:17) contrasts the process of brain-washing or suggestibility to ‘bounded rationality ... the human tendency to learn from others or to accept social influence’. The borders between ‘accepting social influence’ and ‘coerced into loving servitude’ seem to define whether the person critically judging approves of the values and beliefs behind the process, not so much the process itself. This therefore reflects the values and beliefs of the judging individual. By stating that bounded rationality is the positive form of this particular process of knowledge, it seems that De Rios is suggesting a primacy of Western values of rationality. The relationship between student/teacher or initiate/shaman is generally formed on particular embodied systems of trust. The students and initiates, and their respective culture, embody trust towards their respective teachers or shamans. The older characters assist the young in developing forms of judgement, opinions, attitudes, and patterns of behaviour. For example, for Tukano initiates these forms may include the reality of experiencing the divine, and for a Western student this may include the reality of a rational world. Therefore, judging the myriad forms of sanctioned Amazonian ayahuasca practice as ‘brain-washing’ seems to criticise Amazonian culture in general, not so much the isolated practice of ayahuasca. Moreover, this claim seems to indicate a rejection of particular Amazonian world views. De Rios (ibid) states that ayahuasca creates ‘hypersuggestibility’, however, an alternative perspective, which de-values particular embodiments of Western culture, could suggest that De Rios has been brain-washed by “hyper-rationality” from various processes of learning in the West. Where De Rios compares ayahuasca to the intoxicant soma in Huxley’s tragic depiction of a brave new world, some would prefer to associate ayahuasca with moksha-medicine from Huxley’s final novel Island. In Island Huxley paints a picture of a utopian society. A rite of passage process for the society is described (Huxley 1962:160): 'the first stage of their initiation out of childhood into adolescence...In a few minutes these boys and girls will be given their first experience of moksha-medicine...this is more than just a piece of theological rigmarole. Thanks to the moksha-Medicine, it includes an actual experience of the real thing...The real thing isn’t a proposition; it’s a state of being. We don’t teach our children creeds or get them worked up over emotionally charged symbols. When it’s time for them to learn the deepest truths of religion, we set them to climb a precipice and then give them four hundred milligrams of revelation. Two first hand experiences of reality, from which any reasonably intelligent boy or girl can derive a very good idea of what’s what.' Bibliography Baker, J. R. (2005) “Psychedelic Sacraments”. Journal of Psychoactive Drugs. Jun 2005; 37,2. P179 De Rios, M. D. (2008) “A Hallucinogenic Tea, Laced with Controversy”. Westport Greenwood Publishing Group, Inc. Huxley, A. (1962) “Island”. London: Chatto & Windus Luna, E. & White, S. T. (2000) “Ayahuasca Reader: Encounters with the Amazon’s Sacred Vine”. New Mexico: Synergetic Press. Narby, J. (1999) “The Cosmic Serpent: DNA and the origins of knowledge”. New York: Penguin Putnam Inc. Reichel-Dolmatoff, G. (1971) “Amazonian Cosmos: The sexual and Religious Symbolism of the Tukano Indians”. Chicago: University of Chicago Press Weber, M. (1930) “The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism”. London: Unwin University books.

edited due to insight from rahli Great survey. I look forward to checking out the results in Nov.

Many thanks oh' revered one

I discuss to learn, enjoy, share and evolve. No shallow ego games from me, not saying you definately do. But, I kept arguing and arguing this topic into the ground because i felt that you rather a) didn't understand me, and i'm genuinly intersted in your feelings on the topic or B ) you just wanted yourself to be right and me wrong. It is sometimes hard to determine subliminal meanings speaking through arguments in forum philosophy So please do not take B ) as a stab, rather as a possibility which emerged out of my attempts to understand why you weren't appreciating the 'uniqueness' theory I put forward from the very beginning in the paper which created this thread. Peace.

Your entheogenic education was on the fringes of our culture, and is available to only those lucky enough to stubble by it in an uncommen way allowing them to seep into your life. The majority of peoples educations in Australia are so far removed from any posative effects of entheogens, besides alcohol. This is especially the case for educational processes which are embedded legitamately in Aus culture, for the public, such as schooling systems. When you contrast this to amazonian cultures using aya, or other indignous cultures legitmately incorporating entheogens as tools for teaching, learning, rites of passage, the uniqueness of the latter is obvious, no? I've never been to the amazon either, however i'ev spent a lot of time reading ethnographies of intelligent researchers hanging out there, and this, along with my personal dialogues with others, hard work, and entheogenic experiences, is where my feeligns for this particular argument come from.

profile attempt

I was just checking out that popular neuro-soup chick on YouTube talking about Kratom and as the clip began a google add popped up on the video advertising available sales of seeds etc. from shaman-australis. Did this advertisment cost a fortune? What a great idea, i'm chuffed at the organisation for this little move. Well done

Sure

I just spent a few hours traveling through old threads on the Spirituality and Philosophy forum dating back to 2000 AD. I've noticed that there have been a lot of interesting characters seeming deeply passionate about the spiritual and philosophical aspects of entheogens and closely related topics. However, these days there are only a handful of curious (in every sense of the word) people involved in discussion. Where did you all go? Have you/they climbed out of the intellectual rabbit hole to solely base jump into the conversation free experiential enigma of life? Or, got promoted at Coles to assistant managerial positions, thus canning this wishy-washy plant nonsense? Maybe, retreated to myriad underground caves, secretely harbouring ancient spiritual techniques, plants and powers, planning a triumphal return to save the human species from apathy and dread once and for all?

Sorry, i meant aya and all strong entheogens compared to contemporary western material methods of education, ie, powerpoint presentations, microphones, documentaries. This distinction i suggest indicates profound merit towards aya and related entheogens in contrast to the rites of passage and education i received in the NSW public school system, local community life, and family. I thought you would have made this assumption given my clear arguments prior to this.

If it is so cheap I don't know why you don't leave it going. Can you measure the amount of people the google adds seduce into viewing shaman-australis? I was doing some reseach trying to determine initial experiences individuals might have when searching the web about entheogens. The second flick I choose on YouTube gave a link to this website concerning cactus seed sales in Australia. As i said, i think 20 bucks is nothing for this type of publicity. Also, Google bought YouTube a few years back, so i guess that's the connection.

For sure, *young ex-ice addict speaking with confused dero tone 'i thought drugs would make me cool' uncha uncha...

There's definately some things I don't link about how she frames some entheogens. She says she doesn't take anything which is physiologically addictive, out of principle. What, is she afraid of herself? Not strong enough to say no? None the less. A lot of the time, her nerdy average girl feel makes her a warming and comfortable introduction to the profane world of drugs. Which I think is great.

I chased your failed link, but I appreciate the consolation - nice photo

No worries Um, so i'm curious about your ideas Botanika. What did you think of my argument concerning aya as a unique tool? I'm not after ego recognition, rather I'm curious about how this ideas is recieved by you.

I think you've missed my point. I fully agree that aya doesn't offer anything more 'real', rather i think it is a powerful technology for experiencing beliefs in a way which is novel to the Western materialistic paradigm. You state that aya offers simply 'something very intense', in comparison to the profundity of the Sistene Chapel. I've been to the Vatican and loved my time there. However, the experience was not simply less intense than experiences I've had with aya. Rather the complexities within aya's intensity is what I think is unique to cultures which use powerful entheogens for teachings, divination, and what not. The intensity is made of such elements as, an experience of noesis, elated forms of understanding (psychologists call it 'suggestibility', which i think is a loaded word to describe it) - these forms of understanding are experienced in compact lessons of deeply felt experience. I am having trouble describing this 'felt' sensation, this lack of appropriate language reflects the distance our western materialistic paradigm has with these ancient technologies. I think that aya is not simply more intense than learning through material symbols (star wars), rather aya seems to be a more 'intense' form of knowledge exchange due to a profound experience of noesis or embodied know-how, an experience which is rooted in a deep sense of 'feeling'. The visual / auditory onslaught, and emotional / intellectual roller coaster of whatever insight you are exploring, seems to merge with an individual's being in a very unique form we label as 'feeling' or noesis. Whatever we call this sensation, my stomach tells me that it is quite unique in comparison to the symbolic drill systems which my being has been tuned up with from family, church and Australian schooling. So it seems that it is not simply the insight, rather it is the unique and powerful method which insight is delivered in with aya which appeals to me.

I'm not sure where your values are but i just valued this posting of yours a lot. Not simply cause of the spark it fueled in my ego, but from your humble approach. What happaned to all the others, which you likes, who used to use this forum. Of recent i've been playing on an American forum more as the arguments are more concise, less ego games, and overall more challanging and inspiring than a lot of the shit talk here. Don't get me wrong, my recent obsession with The Corroboree is cause it's great.

one other idea. you state that 'idealism cannot fix the genes'. Maybe it can't. But idealists can change drug laws, unsustainable energy practices, gender inequalities, shallow comsumer values, unreasonable working conditions, and all sorts of things.

Mutant, thanks for such a lengthy response to what you make of the philosophies i've littered in this forum. You have included a lot of different ideas in this last post. However, I feel that your ideas are difficult to hold onto throughout the journey you take us on. Maybe this is because of your the terminology and arguments randomly change a fair bit. Overall, it seems that your arguments shift unwittingly, and your views seem to, at times, contridict themselves. This might be a result of how you are framing your arguments, as you put it 'my rambling'. I shall offer you some of my perspectives and pick at those of your ideas which jerk my attention into questioning. I'm not sure why you use the cynicism verses idealism argument to challange my beliefs, or 'truths'. However, i will lay out my views. First, my thoughts on cynicism verses 'idealism' as you call it. I think it is good to see them as two extremes which are never solely lived (as Derrida suggests). On the one side is complete cynicism where someone will respond cynically or pessimistically to absolutely everything which is directed towards them. Opposing this is how you have used the word 'idealism', whcih we can describe as complete optimistic romanticisation (more or less). Then somewhere along the huge scales of grey between both these poles we all hold various perspectives, or truths, in regards to absolutely everything. It is rediculous to talk about absolute truths in the way you do. I'm not saying that they don't exist, i just don't think we can reduce them to language in an absolute sense, in other words, as William James said, by saying that the absolute is 'this' then it cripples the possibilty of it being 'that', 'that' or 'that'. This discrepancy is especially clear when you consider the numerous languages describing truth in many different formats. There can be many different persepctives of the same 'truth'. You stated, which i think is a sound judgement, 'you can say cynicism might be sort of defence - alright, so is idealisms and dream worlds'. However, then you say that my perspective is an illusion, you continued with, 'So I [mutant] surrender to truth, you surrender to [conscious] lies, alright, I can live with that '. It seems that what you are saying is that not only is your truth more valid than mine, but that your truth is absolute, therefore logically, the only truth available, which as we have just seen is not very likely. Rather than pretneding to play 'God' with a finite language, why not simply say, hey this is my truth because of examples a,b,c. Moreover, I think it would be a lot easier on all of us if you simply dropped the whole, i'm a cynic and you're an idealist trip, and simply state you ideas in a clear and tangible format rather than trying to convince people of your arguments by going off on tangents and describing absolute constructs concerning identity, ie cynic verses idealist. ................................................................ One of your arguements: I can fully relate to this truth of yours, It's easy to look around and see idiots herded like cattle into shallow lives and dreams. However, I can also relate to different truths, ones which disclose a world of inspiration and hope, and this part of the world is where I source the food for my soul, you know, the passion for my dreams, enthusiasm for my successes. This latter element to being human is very real and true. Both are true, it's a matter of which you value, believe in and stand up for. I understand the world is in a fucked up position, i appreciate the 'cynical' truths you speak of mutant, trust me. I think these type of truths is what originally attracted me to philosophy and critical thought from the beginning when i was 17 y/o reading Michael Moore, Goerge Orwell, and pretending to understand Chomsky. My social science studies have revealed in further depth the 'cynical' truths of our times. However, in this journey i have developed not only 'cynical' truths, but also 'idealistic' truths. In other words, i appreciate parts of the my life and the world which i think are 'troubled', shit, 'backwards', and i also appreciate those which are imbedded with love, inspiration etc. I mean, I think the well thoughout, non 'fairly-tale', idealists find thier inspiration from appreciating the 'cynical' sides of life in profound depth. For example, Ghandi can be seen as an idealist of non violence and 'no Brittish' in India. I recon that the drive or passion for his idealism came from his deep immersion in the injustice he felt around him. I hope this has given you a bit better of a perspective into my views mutant. if you read my paper 'Ayahuasca and Porous Being', the first 1\2 (3000 words) is on Weber's notion of disenchantment, the 'iron cage' of protenstant rationality which is so pessimistic. However, I lay out these 'cynical' truths then introduce some logical ideas which offer solutions to some of these problems. Actually i've just come to the conclusions that that is the ultimate value of cynicism, using it as an impetus, or force, for change, posative change. You know, changing the 'truths' of the world which you think are shit. By simply wallowing in cynical hell, i recon people are missing the point of this aspect to life. Fuck i'm tired, i'm hitting the sack. I look forward to your response. Cheers

I don't think naming a series of individual examples can do much justice to the over all effect that legitimately intergrating aya into community or society can have. Professional aya practicioners, more than likely, gain increadible insight into 'a' cosmological philosophy and experience, an insight which is hard found otherwise. Buddhism suggests 13 years or so of focused meditation before you get to explore their main cosmological imaginary, ie, the bardos. It took science a few hundred years to come from the Copernicus revolution to Quantam theories of multiple universes/dimensions, and still it's only theory, they don't offer you a lived-experience of the ideas. But, as i said, stating individual examples doesn't do justice to the intricate and profound way in which having professionals working with aya, and translating and employing their insight into local culture, effects the culture at large. It's hard to map out the complete effects of its incorporation. Regardless of taht, below is an example of something which is unique to indigenous cultures using entheogens for spiritual teachings. From my work with these type of substances i feel that they can offer a power and unique form of embodied understanding. It's not simply being drilled with ideas and symbols from teachers and institutions over a long period of time, rather, an experience of belief is offered. An experience which becomes embodied in a deep and solid form, offering solid platforms for a meaningful life.

It's great to see a sudden revitalisation of this thread. I feel that most of you rather haven't read my paper which this discussion emerged from, or have interpreted it differently than i intended. I suggest that the difference between seeing a cultural process as 'brainwashing' or 'educating' is based on how you value the ideas being transmitted, and not the method for transmission. The paper gives a number of examples, but the main premise is that aya itself doesn't brainwash people, people brainwash people and aya can be an amazing tool for this. Another amazing tool for brainwashing is a hihgly repressive, structuresd society, transmitting seductive symbols and ideals through tv screens, advertisment boards and various schooling institutions, oh hail the rational method of organisation. Therefore, if you can appreciate teh values and beliefs being offered through an aya circle or 'traditional' ritual i think it's better to call it a process of education, learning, or maturing rather than continuing to use language which demonises these precious substances. .................................................... As for the romanticisation of indigenous culture, it seems taht, sure, a lot of people like to imagine a lost fantasy of a savage paradise, where community bonds are strong and rich, with value and belief systems holding firmly to ensure a 'garden of eden' like set-up. However, i've also noticed that quite a lot of poeple when intoruduced to the realisation that they have been romantacising, say, north-west amazonian shamanism, they swing to to opposite polar with fierce attitudes. I think it's important to balance the perspectives of romanticisation and 'exclusive criticisation'. Mutant I'm not sure why am amazonian shaman would want to pratronise the tribe just because they 'enjoy the priviledges of being the shaman and healing'. I mean, Western GP's (healers) do not seem to deliver this type of patronising to their patients. I feel you what your saying Thunder. A lot of misinformed poeples idea surrounding indigenous life are pretty wack, however, if you are interested in 'people who went there and saw with their own eyes', there have been shitloads of anthropologists working in north-west Amazonia, equiped with powerful methods of research, perspective, and passion publishing their findings to the intellectual world. I recently wrote a thesis on mythological dimensions surrounding aya where I read shitloads of ethnographies. From this, I feel that there are aspcets of indigenous amazonian culture which are really special, including certain ways aya is incorporated in various cultural processes. I'm guessing you have some personal appreciation for aya, if not a lot. Imagine if you lived in a community which culturally incorporated aya in a socially valid sense, for thousands of years. I mean, even a few hundred years of aya insight legetimately existing in culture could do some really increadible things? Don't you recon?

haha. I'm sure it varies from individual to individual, community to community, and culture to culture. But, i think because it's sacred, and appreciated as being sacred, unlike the secular western stigma towards the transcendental, that the young of the amazon would respect it. I mean, you don't often hear about young hooligans sneaking into catholic churches and drinking holy water or anything like that. But on another note, the impacts of western imperialism on indigenous cultures has had dramatic effects on cultural processes including aya rituals and rites of passage. Moreover, given the large and rather disturbing 'drug' tourism seen in the amazon, the young locals are probably receiving all sorts of different ideas than previous generations did, such as hedonistic attitudes. So yeah, there probably are a few little hoodlems who sneak into uncle Jose's hut and pocket his thick foul juice.

Yeah, it's comical and almost disturbing when you frame the common rite of passage rituals operating in Australian communities. I regards to your comment, I'm not sure if it's a matter of substances being benign and social influences taking the show, so to speak. I feel that they are two separate things. I guess we could see it as, there is social ideology and there is the way it's employed. A rite of passage socialises the individual into the ideology. For example, the ideology might be getting laid, and its employed by dressing up in constumes with face paint and aromatic essences, then going out to a dark and loud venue, drinking a seductive entheogen (alcohol), and dancing your colourful feathers about tryina' impress a bird on the dance floor. Or for another example, the ideology might be the Tukano cosmology i discussed in the paper being employed through an embodied learning experience, assisted by ayahuasca, however shaped by an educated member of the community. To recap, I see aya as a powerful method for employing particular rites of passage. Tryptamines have provided, by far, a more life changing rite of passage then anything else in my life over the last 5 years, and I'm 25. However, I guess that if a culture is using powerful entheogens, such as aya, that the values and beliefs of the 'leaders', or highly respected and valued members of the culture, will be thus influenced. In other words, when a culturally valid shaman - one which the culture respects and listens to - works with aya, it will more than likely effect the ideology of the culture in what i think would be a valuable and precious way. I feel that 'mother aya' offers insight into the deep values which govern the earth, including the values of the human soul which are tainted by egoistic experiences. So yeah, I guess that incorporating different entheogens effects both the ideology the substances are used for and of course how these ideologies are transmitted from old to young. Alcohol can be great, but it definitely isn't aya ;)

What do you assume the author means by 'ordinary' or for that matter, 'extra-ordinary', or 'not ordinary'?