sobriquet

I wasn't posting it as a sermon. Believe me when I say I know the pleasures of opiates. And I've read the unfortunate stories on poppies.org also and yeah it really makes me sad too when I read from some of the old timers there who are clever, witty and just plain nice people who suffer every day because they thought they could be the exception who could control it. I'm humbled by their experiences and just remember the addage of --- Learn from mistakes, but make it the mistakes of others and not your own. I've only ever been truly addicted to one substance in my life. Nicotine which I used for 7 years before I gave up 4 years ago cold turkey. I know at least that form of addiction and can only imagine how bad it must be to have the 800 pound gorilla of opium on your back.

The human LD50 or lethal dose 50% of the time for paracetamol is very variable. It's anywhere from 50-500mg per kg of body weight. So a lethal dose can be anywhere from 4 grams to 40 grams for an 80kg individual. Even if you're not going to die from it, 9 grams is a hell of a lot of paracetamol and would serioulsy stuff your liver up. It's so easy to get rid of the paracetamol. Google for howtos. Unfortunately there's not much that can be done once the drug is absorbed.

I don't know about seed alkaloid content as that is repeatedly found to be non existent in scientific reports I've read. What is definite is contamination of the seed by capsule latex when processing. I don't know what brand of poppy seeds stonewolf scored but in some packets you can definitely see the seeds stuck together in clumps. When a friend has tried sucking seeds from such packets she has found she becomes quite warm and fuzzy if she hasn't used opiates for a time. I think it depends on the packet you score as to the alkaloid content. stonewolf has obviously chance upon a batch or brand that has more latex contaminant. That's my theory anyhow.

I can honestly say that what you are describing is very easily a slippery slope to nasty addiction. Where you're having withdrawal symptoms and means you need to use or think about the drug constantly. File the experience you've had away and don't do it again. The warm blanket of poppies is potentially a road to hell and breaking an opium habit can be more difficult than getting off heroin. Most people who've used opiates are addicted in a sense. Even if that usage is infrequent, if thinking about the poppy and it's products gives you a knowing sensation then you're addicted in a sense. You know you will use it again some time. Maybe not in a compulsive way, but you will. And your foot is always standing on soap. I'm just giving you a warning so you know what you are getting into. Perhaps you already know, but be very very careful and if you are smart you'll never do what you've done today again. Flirting with opium is a dangerous game. And I must be on one of my very cautious moments right now because normally I wouldn't give a toss as to what anyone else did. But the potential for disaster is really there. Poppies have two sides to them. Unfortunately the nasty side is the one that takes over from any pleasantness given time. Take care.

At one of the nurseries I visited there was a seed satchel of "Salvia Mystique" it had green veined leaves and appeared identical to divinorum and it had purple flowers displayed. Is this just some old stock of Salvia divinorum? Or was it some related species? Although the effects seem a little too far out and unpleasant for my liking I'd still be interested in growing it. Should I have bought the packet? Cheers.

I was just reading about extraction techniques for various compounds and found an interesting "iceolator" technique for concentrating poppy alkaloids. It involves macerating the plant material with cold water and then putting the extract into the freezer till half frozen and then throwing away the ice component. The remaining liquid extract has all the desired alkaloids. The procedure can be repeated to get even more concentration. The final filtrate is then evaporated leaving a very alkaloid rich substance or powder at the end. Now this works because the poppy alkaloids are more soluble in water than the other plant material like sacharrides and lipids. I'm wondering whether this would work with other plants also. Does harmaline dissolve in water easily? If it is very water soluble then this method may work to remove tannins also? I don't have any plant material to try this on. Maybe someone can dream this one day?

If you go to the Myer centre in Brisbane you'll see that the large columns in Myer are actually painted with large poppy pod motifs. Each floor has a different colour. Poppy pods can be used in flower arrangements and are very decorative. You can have an alibi for growing them if you are interested in flower arrangement or make things from the pods: You could even make money by selling them on eBay. Are you into organic farming? Organic poppy seed production is another possible legitimate alibi. As long as you are not obviously growing them as a drug source then you are unlikely to be hassled for a few plants growing in your garden. It's all situational. Whether you get nailed or not has alot to do with issues other than the fact the plants are growing on your property. Over a decade ago a friend grew around ten large plants and these yielded multiple flowers each, most have one flower but some of hers grew two or more from branches as she was fertilising them heavily. These yielded at least a half medicine cup full of opium around 25 mL or so with the opium collected over three collections on three days in the mornings. The flowers are short lived so once the opium is collected the pods can be collected and dried to collect the seeds and then composted afterwards.

I can't help but chuckle at some of the stuff here. But it's missing many more potential conspiracy theories. I think stuff like this can easily be dismissed as a brain fart when its potentially fuelled by botanicals but there's no doubt that something is going on. Here's the secret though..... it's always been going on! Human history is always on a path to degradation and loss. It's filled with intrigue and plots, from the earliest to the latest times. Remember that saying? There's nothing new under the sun? It's true. The 2012 thing in my opinion just represents a person who ran out of drive or effort to write beyond it. It was so far in the future that it was for all intents and purposes irrelevant. As irrelevant to them as the year 4040 is to us.

The most ridiculous side to any ranking like this is that numbers are not being accounted. Drugs like LSD are never going to be mainstream even if they were fully legal to take. By magnitude of actual harm, tobacco and alcohol as drugs absolutely dwarf the harm from all the rest combined so many times over that it's not funny.

It may not be mainstream and I can't say I've tried all or many of the ones you list, but the fact it's synthetic is in my opinion not an issue since LSD and MDMA (+many other PEAs) are synthetic. "The Essential Psychedelic Guide" by D.M.Turner which you can read here recounts the experience of much of the agents you've listed. http://www.lavondyss.com/donut/guide/toc.html When you look at the intensity he gives the psychedelic experience from each of these he rates them: 1. Ketamine ---> 10 - INFINITY! 2. LSD ---> 3 to 7 3. Psilocybin ---> 3 to 7 4. Mescaline ---> 3 to 8 5. Ecstacy MDMA ---> 2 to 4 6. 2-CB ---> 2 to 7 7. DMT ---> 9 to 10 8. Harmala ---> 1 to 2 Make of it what you will but ketamine is an amazing molecule. The sense of disassociation is unlike any of the others except for perhaps DMT which comes close. Note the ratings with ketamine being a full 10 experience every time the right dose is used and the sky is the limit. Also in relation to use-by dates on drugs and medicines. When a medicine has reached its use-by date then it has reached a point at which its therapeutic dose is within several percent of the stated dose. For example if a drug says it is 100mg then it is usually more than this when manufactured. The rate of oxidation and drug breakdown will eventually get it down to 100mg, and it will progressively get lower as time goes on. A pharmacist told me that the use by date usually indicates the point at which the drug would have 95% of the stated dose. This does not mean the drug is useless or unusable. It just means that the dose is going to be lower than indicated. Good luck.

There's some good stuff on TV but you have to be selective. I never watch news or "current affairs" on TV. I watch: 1. Selected series like Top Gear; a car show from the UK which is funny and entertaining. On SBS 2. Documentaries on SBS Sunday nights, also science programs like Catalyst on ABC and Beyond Tomorrow sometimes. 3. World Poker Tour on Saturday nights. 4. Chaser's War on Everything on ABC. I have a digital TV recorder that allows skipping of commercials. So I record these automatically and watch them at times when it suits me skipping all commercials not that I watch much commercial TV anyhow. About the only show with commercials I watch is World Poker Tour and being late at night, that's got those 'call me now' type sex commercials and I might let the odd one of those play ;)

You've left out what I believe is probably one of the most mind blowing agents out there. Ketamine. I find this little description from the lycaeum to be very spot on:

I guess that electronic locks are going to become more common in the future. A friend who delivers pizza says that they've noticed that many rich people's homes now have electronic keyless entries.

Funnily enough I did like the character of Charles Emerson Winchester III in M.A.S.H. Great drama from the time before reality TV shows. Cheers.

Hi all. I'm astounded really about how almost everyone here has simply adopted the paradigm of the society at large that the growing of plants can be made illegal. This to me means that people have agreed and adopted this paradigm wholesale rather than opposing or at least ignoring it. There's always the chirping in of someone 'but that's illegal' etc. and frankly I think it shouldn't be anyone here's concern whether something is or isn't 'illegal' as long as what they're doing is within their own domain and there are no victims of their activities. I believe that as long as that is the case then all the laws in the world mean nothing. Everyone is aware of the hypocrisy of these laws in the double standard created by allowing alcohol and tobacco (that is corporate tobacco - you're not allowed to grow your own) which cause orders of magnitude more harm than all other agents put together. But that's well known. What I am alarmed at is that everyone simply pushes the barrow of the criminals who keep this stuff illegal. You need to keep your own headspace in this. Everyone is aware there are potentially consequences of growing these species and everyone needs to decide for themselves whether their situation is jeopardised or endangered by it. I don't know how the situation at large can be improved, but to let the mental viruses of the society at large invade your own headspace is wrong. At least reject the incorrect paradigm and that may begin to turn the tide. Peace.

OK understood. It wasn't about not 'bowing to the silly laws'. I'm not advising that people break laws and I'm not condoning criminal behaviour. The point was to avoid the validation of the model of prohibition of cultivation of plants by legitimising it in some sense by always letting it intrude into discussions. I have over the course of the discussion understood more of the minefield that all this may entail and thank everyone for their input, especially yours Torsten.

Would it not have offended your sensibilities as much if I'd used the word 'model' instead. To be annoyed at such trifling things is to miss the point altogether. I meant the word as 'model' and did not, I believe state that I was using the term as jargon relating to the History and Philosophy of Science. I also did not mean it as a table modelling the inflections of words in Greek or Latin forming mutually exclusive choices in syntactic roles. Good luck.

I understand better now. Thanks for clarifying.

Like was said above, things sometimes have to be pragmatic. There are two freedoms at stake in most of the legal discussions here: 1. The freedom to cultivate. 2. The freedom to consume. For some cases both freedoms are denied by the law, and in others its only the second. If you have the first freedom then what you do with the product to yourself is your business. There's plenty of information on that second part on the internet at large, even outside your own legal framework that it makes sense to discuss those things there. So if you have these extraordinary plants which require special care etc. then by all means you have every right to discuss the proper cultivation and growing of these plants you own and care for. Retaining that freedom to cultivate is what is paramount. That freedom can be eroded by wrong moves. Anyhow, I realise it's a difficult issue. I didn't mean to mock the positions already taken, even though you have taken the liberty to mock my post. Cheers.

Hemp is a special case of a demonised plant which is quite different in that it has almost universal ability to be identified. Ironically I personally believe that the battle if it is to be won has to be waged on that particular front. Although myself having absolutely no interest in cannabis, its cultivation or consumption it has become the 'Berlin wall' in this war. Fortunately there are more people who are passionate about that issue that political movements exist for that battle (ie. NORML). So while it may be impossible to hide hemp in the way you suggest, it's straightforward to "hide" almost anything else amongst a garden of other plants.

Hi Torsten. It's obvious that SAB is one of those interfaces with the outside paradigm. Even so I really like the fact that you have diversified the shop to include foods and ornamentals which is an example of keeping to the paradigm of gardening and plant appreciation. Thank you for explaining aspects of the shop order system. Perhaps the order process could include, if it doesn't already, the ability of a person to select whether they have any record stored at all? It is obviously excellent that you offer the ability to delete or erase identifying information. Obviously you'd keep your financial records regardless. What I'm getting at is trying to make the process like paying for cash at a local nursery and taking one's plants away if one wants it to be that way. It's a difficult position for you Torsten. I understand that. You're one of those people at the coalface and I am not antagonising your approach because I understand why it is that way. You're doing excellent work and I appreciate your position and intelligent manner you approach things. Cheers.

I understand this; but it would be better all round if the paradigm were that this is a gardening or botanical forum for discussion of growing and appreciating plants. What is done with them can be kept to oneself. I believe that would delineate things better. The paradigm of legal/illegal simply detracts from the underlying inherent right to grow whatever one wishes for their own purposes. It's a difficult situation and I understand that the way things are done is most definitely for a good reason and has been established over the years. I am not naive enough to be lost in my hyperbole of 'being astounded' that people play it this way. Call it frustration at the status quo, but there must be a better way. Fair enough. Would be good to have a section or separate forum for this. The problem with activism in this respect is that those at the coalface cannot be involved in cultivation of these things. Like the 'separation' of the IRA and Sinn Fein for example. Yes it's difficult. I think that anonymity should be completely built in to the forum in that IP addresses are not logged as it is on some forums. This feature if it exists should be disabled. The dictum against incrimination of oneself should definitely be enforced. Those who have become known more amongst the members or who want to have a more publicly know profile should be particularly careful when they post as they probably do. A good delineation would be based on what is botanical and informational. It's obvious that even working in a different paradigm the individual's reality is going to interface with the paradigm of the society at large at times. Every plant discussed here becomes a candidate for becoming controlled or "illegal" so it's a delicate balance indeed. Anyhow I recognise that it's a difficult area and again acknowledge that the way things are done is for a reason as you've nicely pointed out. Understood. I don't know how many have been 'caught' with an illegal plant but honestly the best way to avoid such things is to avoid having an entire garden of ethnobotanicals and instead have the paradigm of a gardener who grows all sorts of plants. If one grows 50 species of cacti together with their L williamsii or grows other floral plants together with their poppies etc. then the paradigm is completely different. One must change their own paradigm to protect themselves if you see what I am saying. Be a gardener first regardless of what it is you are growing. Anyhow you've raised some good points and at the risk of repetition I completely understand the reason things are done the way they are. Cheers.

Hi Darklight. Ive read alot of the past posts on this. What I find objectionable in the legal discussions is that some here are trying to make the issues that are grey and should be left untouched into black and white issues by discussing them. What I am advocating is the absolute non-discussion of legality. To leave all those issues to one side. I honestly think these things should be left grey. Why try to work things out to your own detriment. If the law needs to be tested then it should be when the time comes. I understand totally. That's why I've said I don't know how it will all change ultimately but the legal side of things should not be our concern. Of course I understand. As a newcomer I'm just throwing this up for discussion. I post here in an anonymous fashion. I use tor/privoxy and hamachi programs to guard this even further and would suggest others also take care to prevent them being discovered. It could happen that the forum records are requested in legal proceedings, and it would be a simple matter of linking IPs to individuals. Let me make it clear that I do not grow any illegal plants at the present time. I don't know what sort of records are kept here, but I would assume the forum admins are making sure that this sort of identifying information is not being kept. I would also assume that identifying records of sales from the Shaman Botanical online shop are not kept since if the shop has sold a plant that subsequently becomes controlled/scheduled then its only a matter of subpoenaing those records to get a list of everyone who has the controlled plant and where they might have distributed it. Cheers.

I've read the Ayahuasca forums tonight and I'm really keen to grow the caapi. It sounds like an amazing plant. Are these viable from seed? Which vines are available here, red, yellow, white, black? What to start with, and is anyone willing to start me off with a small plant/cutting or some seeds? So many questions, so much to learn.

Yes some other branches have red margins and tips. Thanks for the info on the pigmentation change. It makes sense. I'll watch out for other anomalies. I'm having alot of fun with these. I can't wait till your narrow/red cross becomes available. That looks very nice indeed. Cheers.