Rev

Mesq i partially agree with your argument though i think we need to think very carefully about the context of shaman in the traditional society and that in a modern society. What i dont think has changed is that the shaman role involves the keeping of the secret knowledge for attaining altered states and the practice in guiding others there for healing and exploratory purposes - as safely as possible. I ask myself why would i go to a traditional shaman (other than to learn of plants)? And i think its because i want to be watched over and guided by someone who has been further than me and lived to tell the tale, someone who will know where im at if i go too far and is equipped to bring me back. Someone i can trust In that respect any veteran shroomer taking initiates out on a pick and teaching them about the environment, the mushrooms and the lore as well as helping them to get the best from their trips plays a role as a minor shaman. In contrast selling someone some Salvia doesnt have the same value I think the difference between the begginnings of the shamanic practice and plain dealing comes in the aftercare of the recipients, of being able to take people where you want to take them. The plants will supply all the mysticism you require, the shaman needs to be able to manipulate the 'set' and 'setting' using music, activity and environment, by choreographing the ritual to achieve a peak effect. They dont need any set rituals or specific religious points of view, probably better if they dont - just let the people find their own meaning

I know that its easy to sympathise with the San for losing out on the Hoodia but any patent on the use of Hoodia for weight loss is fair game unfortunately as thats not the application they used it for. Its all debatable but either way intellectual property rights native or corporate dont extend to the plant itself - whoever has the plant in their hand owns the plant - the patent covers the usage of that plant for specific purposes. Eating something to reduce your hunger when youve got no food isnt automatically the same application as eating it to reduce cravings when youve got plenty to eat. While i agree we shouldnt be buying up wildcrafted supplies of such a slowgrowing plant from unprotected wild stands or buying wild collected plants i think that the seed is fair game and with the publicity its just gotten i suspect that it wont be long before its extinct in the wild Slimming plant in Poor country wanted by Fat people in rich country equals quick extinction.

Actually i was asking seriously. I mean something so popular througout history and prehistory has to be good. but its still an enigma to me. Codeine makes you me washed out - but it does have great painkilling effects. Morphine made me sick as a dog. Papaverine has aphrodisiac qualities Opium is such a complex mix of substances that having just a few in isolation might not allow you to GET the whole picture. Sounds great its just that people go on about the nausea so much. Is it the Tea or does smoking eating or consuming laudanum have the same effects? When i chuck on Aya its not unpleasant at all - what about opiates? 1,4-B, Valerian, Mandrake and Corydalis have nice dreamy effects as well

in the interests of diplomacy im changing the record... wouldnt want to hurt feelings... [ 31. August 2003, 04:03: Message edited by: reville ]

The ID process is coming along well. I hope i can get a copy of the results to you soon...

I believe that 1 euro is a coin which may be hard to find in oz. better to use US currency if you were going to contemplate this not without risk (quite illegal) venture. Of course you wont... [ 23. August 2003, 04:49: Message edited by: reville ]

or get someone to go to the herb garden at Mt Coot-tha in bris i grabbed a few handfulls last time and spred them around the yard and pots- got seeedlings coming up - should have kept some seed i guess

Turning someone on is a beautiful experience. I think thats the role of the Modern purveyor of fine psychoactives. But i think that in order to be turned on a persons mind has to have certain precursory thoughts already poised on the edge, a certain level of maturity tending to be found in later years but so unpredictable still that a 15 year old can have it and a 50 year old still lack it. Certain predispositions to beauty and humility, half formed ideas about the existence of a whole and infinite levels of perception. It can take so little but the art is in delivery in a suitable time and space. Some people just like to get high because its a novel thing to do. If this is all you find in it youll probabaly grow out of it quickly. Its when you find the propsect of going places other places in the mind tantalising that you have moved beyond that.Looking forward to moments of peak bliss as well as eternities in some godawful harmala pit of the pysche battling some long suppressed demon People do just appear. If you want to make a hint then give away seeds, spores or plants - all things that require a certain 'Pilgrimage' that weeds out any who dont necessarilly have the self discipline or need to go further. some will just be happy enough with whatever socially condoned drugs are on offer and theres no need to waste energies when they are already satisfied And you know theyre committed by the time theyve done all that work in finding out and sourcing some plants by themselves I think Dale pendell called it the Poison path, he also mused that along the way you will meet the plant people with whom you share common interests but they renmain separate paths From shaman to shaman the tradition needs to continue - to teach an dkeep alive the knowledge of the plants and the art of helping others find their way once theyve made it to a certain point independently Shamans arent all like Castanedas books. In One river they take some Brunsfelsia prepared by the shaman whi did not wan to make it for them - but they insisted as they lay in a horrible state on the ground, unable to walk and very very sick, they say the shaman did what any shaman would do - he went to bed. A Shaman is not a Guru, and its not some new age support group for wannabe tribals. Youre born, you trip and you die alone so everyone has to take their life in their own hands. I dont believe in drugging people or giving drugs to minors as i think excercising your cognitive birthright as a human by choosing to trip is an affirmation of adult choice and by choosing that you imply full responsibility for your actions [ 23. August 2003, 03:57: Message edited by: reville ]

Only you tantra edit

The problem with Castaneda is that fiction is misrepresented as facts. If it were presented as fiction it would have done no harm Correct me if im wrong but didnt he get away with it to the point of getting a pHD with the same gift of Fiction?

Thanks Tantra i could remmeber where that Turnera was. Its Turnera ulmifolia and i saw it as a weed growing in potted plants all over Bali spewin i didnt grab a few pieces... Darklight also came across the jamaicans using a damiana too - likel to be the same species....

So whats so good about poppies then? ive only got a couple of dozen kinds but have never tried them Smiling cloud i so sympathise HM years you been trying? 3 for me And as matter of fact quite a few of mine made it - i know - someone took the photos for me both times Firts year i scatterred only Paeonies and had an amazing crop of beuatiful flowers. Im beginning to think this just isnt my plant So yeah what is so good? All ive ever read is about the nausea, and vomiting and nodding off and yes i admit the sexual aspect sounds damn good - do you hallucinate? Dream? It is Strongly Euphoric? (like MDMA peak)

Im with you there Gom!!! All those supposed employment agaencies are nothing but acrdboard cut-outs! Pretty sign out fron - go inside and theres some office furniture maybe 1 or 2 people but you are so right they do absolutely nothing to assist you. Im not on any benefit these days but i still sympathise with the shit those who are get. Anyone would think you were getting a full wage 3 or 4 hundred dollars a fortnight is not worth the shit shows like ACA and the others give dolies let alone the resulting public opinion that you are the brunt of. I think is amazing how their thinking would applaud someone who goes out working 8 bucks an hour selling door to door crap no-one wants - or telemarketing - what a usefuless F ing job that is?! have you ever had anything but contempt for those people? meanwhile they (current affairs) deride the people in our societry on the lowest rung - easy pickings for those current affair bullies i guess. I guess they pick on the weak cos they cant afford expensive company structures and lawyers and such things to get immunity.

Well to prove that point - i know a PhD student who is on the dole in order to complete studies and several others who will probably have to be. For anyone who didnt already know Austudy no longer exists as it was - only the name does and its been split in 2 Both pay way way below the pov line - they assume you can work for the rest. All this means is a whole of students competing for shitty hospitality jobs - shitty in part cos they lack any security, pay crap money and grossly interfere with your ability to get good grades at Uni. I really dont get it - theres only 20 million people in this country - and its a bloody big one at that - why is anyone unemployed or poor? And why does the Govt claim it cant afford to pay at least the pov. line to students? Gross finanacial and social mismanagement

could have bypassed the net altogether and used weeds from the local empty suburban block Castor oil bean Oleander Datura

Write a book and publish it illegally if need be Include the information people want and what they need (medical and dosages) distribute it widely - feed the knowledge hungry the internet helps once youre switched on but theres a lot of pitfalls until you find a place like this.

I think its just a matter of those who want to engage drugs and altered states of consciousness and those who dont. Each society determines whats drugs it condones and opposes all others, like a taboo. Theres no rationality to it - sure alcohol is more toxic but its so incorporated as to the point peoiple have to be reminded of the language they use - that its not 'Drugs and alcohol' - alcohol IS a Drug In turn each society is shaped by the drug. I firmly believe that the western European derived cultures owe their awful barbarosity even at the height of civilisation to a long involvement with alcohol and more specifically drunkedness. (I also really think that the 'strangeness' of Islamic culture and persistent ethnic division between communities coexisting is largely in part becuase we have such different food and drug rituals - the jesus/mohammed issue is i think very minor in comparison.) When people drink to excess they become louder and more aggressive, less mindful of manners and more inclined to do whatever they like despite being quite offensve to sober society. And in the morning they brush the night before away as a joke justified by - yeah i was drunk. This way the person can claim a high level of civility in working hours and turn back to a barbarian on the weekend. Getting so used to lying to yourself that its the alcohol that does it. English Soccer hooligans, Aussies at the cricket or footy, Americans at grid-iron or baseball has definite analogies to the same countries at war or in the act of colonising The national psyche can balance itself off hypocritically and be happy. Yes we are civilised and oh how awful those savages are - (who are unashamed of their barbarity) and yet live in total denial of our often intitutionalised atrocities. The Conquests, the massacres and the genocides are tucked behind like a bad hangover and the stoty rewritten to justify the means - or just forgotten Anglo civilisation isnt the only one to do this. Any culture that attached bravado or machismo to how much alcohol you can consume fits into the same picture. Why i think hallucinogens are so opposed is because they break this continuum - by changing the drugs used by a society you change the whole society. And our society has already changed The VB man, a bottle of aussie red or the jack daniels T shirt are more than just adds - they are archetypes icons of a society. Think of the imagery each one stirs Then think about the new alternatives. From no drugs at all to fully fledged psychedelics and empathogens And a lot seem to be antagonistic to the alcohol culture effectively breaking the whole tradition for a critical mass of the next generation. most people taking them are young and will likely fold under pressure abd return to the socially condoned ways of thinking but enough might actually get through and change the very structure of our future political and social structure simply beacuse they think so differently. A lot of people using hallucinogens are so young and impressionable and not quite on their feet but when they do get there they are a major threat to the status quo, especially as so many are quite bright. why hallucinogens are so persecuted then is beacuse after slipping past discouragemnet under the guise of 'drug education' you make it to a period of chastismnet and minor punishments. Slipping past that they try to woo you back with acceptance and marketing - all those bright fizzy godawful drinks they market to the young and the incorporation of work or social climbing with 'a few drinks' (Id much rather say 'hey boss want to try this hot new acid ive found ) and if you pesrist they arrest you effectively striking you off as a candidate for political and finanacial power when you mature Its a standard safety net for the 'normal' society to resist competition. So i think the government is actually representing society for once in persecuting these drugs and us - but its a scared society - one who isnt allowed to understand the benefits and shown only often untrue horrors and which isnt really happ with the staus quo anyway... [ 19. August 2003, 03:22: Message edited by: reville ]

seeds - White is fine. I have one already but its the only suaveolens i have so itll just be good to be able to pollinate it. PM me and we can chat over what you might like in return

what colour? love some or a cutting/seedling I have a few good trades in mind. maybe at the next Bris meet?