khanes

quote: Ketamine has been moved from schedule 4 to S8 effective from 1st of May 2005. Torsten, thanks for the update. I noticed that this move was motivated by concern re: the diversion of ketamine from veterinary and other medical uses to the recreational market. Ketamine has always been of great interest to me, though I have only limited experience with it. As a child, in 1976, following an accident which required significant stitching to my knee, I recall an operation at a Clifton Hill Medical Centre (Victoria) where ketamine was used for twilight anaesthesia, resulting in a powerful experience, including 'a dissociative feeling as though I were outside of my body watching the operation from above" (Personal Journal, no. 4991, p. 54).

Thanks for the details. I know some of the speakers at this conference and it sounds like it might be quite informative and fun. Only wish I could attend.

Torsten, Thanks for this - I had read something of this case briefly on the Erowid website. A promising development in terms of legal precedent.

quote: I think the combo of MAO-A inhibitors and tryptophan is the most effective and immediate antidepressant and is terribly undervalued due to its diminished profitability. Thanks for the information. I do intend to look further into this. quote: most of the useful remedies are one-by-one coming under the control of those who supposedly provide so-called "health care" There are many who are unhappy with the degree of regulation of even natural and complementary medicines. Some time ago, I actually had trouble buying St John's Wort, which has been classed as a weed in Australia, eventually finding a supplier in Queensland. quote: While not an MAO-I Ive read Sceletium is a good Anti-depressant. Sceletium - Kougoed - A natural mood elevator Sceletium tortuosum is a small groundcover plant native to Southern Africa. For hundreds of years the Hottentots of Southern Africa used Sceletium tortuosum as a mood enhancer, relaxant and empathogen. It is also known as Kanna or Kauwgoed, Kougoed and Canna. Chemistry and Pharmacology The mood-elevating action of sceletium is caused by a number of alkaloids including mesembrine, mesembrenol and tortuosamine which interact with the brain's dopamine and serotonin receptors. Mesembrine is a major alkaloid present in Sceletium. Mesembrine has been demonstrated to be a potent serotonin-uptake inhibitor. This receptor-specific activity, and receptor activities also found on nicotinic, dopamine and nor-adrenaline sites certainly validate the traditional mood-elevating uses, and suggest additional therapeutic and wellness potential. Thanks for the link. Sounds like an interesting plant.

quote: If GPs did their job and actually educated and monitored their patients rather than wanting to send them home with the first available safe pill, moclobemide would be much more widely used. Torsten, this is probably true. Having refreshed my own knowledge of the use of MAOI's in depression, moclobemide does seem to be quite an effective treatment. As you suggest, the reasons why it is no longer in vogue may well be quite complex and, at the level of General Practice, may include such considerations as time constraints or a desire to avoid legal complications. Personally,I'm one of these fusspots who happens to prefer organic foods and would only introduce prescription medicines into my body as an absolute last resort. As a result, I do think natural therapies,such as the combinations you suggest, are worth considering. Education is very important. If one has a condition that severely compromises one's enjoyment of life, it would be in one's best interests to learn everything about its possible management,and, given the side-effects of many prescription medicines, seeking a natural approach, with reference to compounds that have a rich heritage on the earth, such as St John's Wort, peganum, etc, can certainly be worthwile. [ 13. April 2005, 15:02: Message edited by: khanes ]

Hi Apothecary, An interesting question. As far as I'm aware,harmine and harmaline are beta-carbolines and very effective inhibitors of MAOI enzymes, predominantly of MAO type A. As Torsten suggests, this would put them in a similar category to MAOI antidepressants such as moclobemide (Aurorix and others). Unfortunately, as well as psychotropic effects, which some would consider undesirable (others may value such effects), the limitations of MAOI antidepressants, and one of the reasons they have largely fallen out of favour in recent times, has to do with safety. Even with the reversible MAOI's such as moclobemide, dietary restrictions, including avoiding tyramine rich foods such as aged cheeses, chocolate, red wine, yeast products, etc, are highly recommended.

"I don't think this is really about dancing, but rather about drugs. It follows on from the prohibition of pacifiers and glow sticks as 'drug paraphernalia (if used at a rave)." Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was just alluding, tongue in cheek, to the concern with dancing in some communities. For example, in some Mormon and Seventh Day Adventist Church communities dancing is still considered to be unacceptable.

I first read of Blunkett's revolutionary approach in 'The Age' Friday 12 July, 2002 Warren Hoge London, with the headline 'Relaxation of British drug laws has many politicians fuming'. This approach was designed to make 'private use of discreet amounts no longer subject to arrest". I'm surprised to hear of a possible reversal.

The U.S certainly does cover all the extremes - from the more advanced, free-thinking communities of California and elsewhere (eg. Massachusetts, Alaska) to redneck strongholds in other parts. This did surprise me - I suppose in some quarters dancing may still be a tool of the devil.

"Fishsails is better (IMO) they use the yacht club rooms down by the breakwater , and the veiw over the bay is the best in town" Thanks. No, just a sojourn with a friend - the Great Ocean Road is a favourite of mine and I'd never been past the Apostles. Fishsails - I'll be sure to give it a look next time, perhaps when some whales hit town.

Sorry for the delay in responding. I just got back from a short stay down the Victorian coast. If anyone comes down to Warnambool, be sure to stop in at Fishtales cafe - wonderful alternative cuisine (eg. vegetarian fare) and friendly service. "If there's anything on that list you think members of this community might be able to help you with, you should definitely ask." Thanks. I hope to keep the forum informed of developments. Any information concerning the background of individuals central to the prohibition of this plant would obviously be of interest. In terms of legal issues, I'm looking into a number of matters and I'll keep the forum advised if there is anything worth chasing up from a legal standpoint. Generally, any legal opinion pertaining to the dynamics of regulatory decisions such as this would be welcome. "Would it be too much to ask for you to apply for permission to conduct a clinical trial with SD?" I have given this consideration, and I will look further into it, but, unless strongly supported by a major research institution (many of which tend to be shy of S9 substances), I don't like the chances. There is also the problem of obtaining a standardised form of the plant - a chemistry colleague suggested pure Salvinorin A could be administered and I suppose this is possible but I have not looked into all of the technicalities. Certainly a worthwhile option to explore. Short of a clinical trial, there are far more options available, such as epidemiological work, surveys of users of the plant, case studies, etc and I hope to collect as much data as possible from various sources in this area. "these things are short acting physically as far as "side-effects" go, yet long lasting psychologically/spiritually particularly if sessions are guided by an experienced psychonaught unlike anti-deps which feel like they wash the soul out of you plus it takes weeks and you're supposed to 'get on with your life' at the same time. I know I speak for most if not all here with experience with Sally that you CANNOT abuse this plant!!,she simply won't allow you to.She gave me a hard time when I smoked a few cones before she was scheduled but I'm glad she did...it was the kick-in-the-arse I needed." Thanks for your comments. There are many out there who feel exactly the same way and are open to natural options. The side effect profile of many anti-depressants, whilst much improved from some of the older agents, can still be fairly imposing. A recent survey of 500 users of salvia divinorum (Baggott, Erowid & Erowid. Erowid Extracts, 2004, 6, 12-14), suggested that 47% of users reported increased insight, 44.8% improved mood, 39.8% greater connectedness to the universe or nature and so forth. There are some promising early findings and I do hope that people will continue to report on their experiences, stimulating further scientific research. As for DMT and 'shrooms' there's a lot of good work through such organisations as MAPS in the U.S. which suggests many valuable applications of these substances, as suggested by the work of pioneers such as Rick Strassman, Terence McKenna, Jonathan Ott and many others. "when consumed in a more responsible fashion i found its effects deeply spiritual and welcoming. scheduled or not, if i was offered salvia again i would definately partake but it's not something that i'd seek regularly." This is a very good point and I think that the concept of responsible use is a good one. Excessive dose of antidepressants has been known to cause serotonin syndrome, comprising some fairly unpleasant symptoms; even excessive meditation can cause complications. For my part, a small percentage of my own experiences with salvia divinorum were overwhelming, even occasionally unpleasant, but there isn't a single experience that I did not draw something valuable from, either in terms of self-understanding, afterglow effects, etc. "S. Divinorum isn't addictive. It can't be sold as lucratively as heroin, which by the way, requires processing. What are the recorded problems in the many countries where salvia is legal? Are people dying in the US from consumption? Are people processing it and selling it on the street to fund criminal activity? Are people exhibiting behaviour that is dangerous to society?" Well said. I'm not aware of any international cases of deaths, hospitalisations, or significant complications arising from the use of salvia divinorum. As a result, the case for its prohibition on health and safety grounds is quite weak and will probably remain so for such a short-acting plant, particularly if the salvia d. community continues to emphasise the importance of education and responsible use (eg the use of sitters when using highly concentrated forms of the plant).

Happy to hear of change in Venezuela. Thanks for the information.

"how to effect a reconsideration? There is no law or procedure to help you do this" Hi thelema. I regret the delay in responding. Yes, this is a difficult case and I'm well aware of the statutory limitations. I suppose it's a question of doing what one can under the circumstances. But I think it would be wrong to assume that there is nothing to be done. As you and others have pointed out, this ruling hardly represents good regulatory practice and, whilst there's not much gain in publically outlining strategy generally speaking, one approach may be to expose the weaknesses (and there are many) of this legislation (even within the TGA), whilst at the same time raising a potentially important awareness within the Australian community. I'm note sure how many Aussies would have actually heard of the NDPSC or TGA? Now I have a long list of things that I intend to do in this area, as time permits. As an initial step, it may be serviceable to put under the microscope those individuals central to the prohibition - based on a cursory inspection, I'm quite sure they are not members of the 'Basement Shamans Guild' or followers of a 'Nature Philosophy.' It may be possible to highlight issues of representation or lack of attention to human rights, etc. All the cards are not yet on the table. Best wishes.

I agree, particularly given the high degree of respect of sports people in this country. Whether it be aboriginal or gay rights, depression, bipolar disorder or other issues, sports people seem to be very influential in raising issues of importance to Australians.

Very saddened to hear about his death and the circumstances. A human being who did things his own way. one of the great rebels.