mindperformer Posted August 30, 2012 A few psychoactive plants of the vikings, of course there are more: The bog bilberry (Rauschbeere, Vaccinium uliginosum), which can sometimes be hallucinogenic because of a symbiotic fungus (Sclerotina megalospora), which is living on it sometimes. In mediaeval times in Scandinavia the berries were pressed with wine. In Siberia the shamans used the berries together with fly agaric mushrooms. In Austria, Tirol they say, kids would loose their mind when they eat from the bog bilberrys (Rauschbeeren). This picture was taken in northern Finland: The crowberry (Empetrum nigrum) is said to act intoxicating in higher doses. It is growing in Greenland too and one of their few wild edible fruits. In Norway (12. century) they made wine from the juice of the fruits.cating and hallucinogenic and Andromedotoxin could be responsible for this. This picture was taken in northern Norway: The Labrador tea (Ledum palustre) is an endangered plant in central-europe. It is also used by the inuit and can be smoked. While teas from it are only barely toxic, an alcoholic tincture can be quite toxic, because it is rich in essential oil. The Tungus people, from whose language the word shaman stems from, and the neighbouring Giljaks use mainly Ledum palustre as ritual and trance-inducing smoke. Also the japanese natives, the Ainu used it. In europe it was mainly used as a beer-additive. The picture was taken in northern Sweden (it is the one with the white flowers and narrow leaves): And the obligate fly agaric (Amanita muscaria)- it can only grow in symbiosis with birch or pine. The dried mushroom is much more comfortable and stronger in its hallucinogenic action, because of conversion of ibotenic acid into muscimol. On Kamtchatka the ritual-use of the fly agaric is still alive. It was also used by natives in the Americas (Algonkin, Ojibway and Dogrib in Northamerica, Maya, Aztecs and Purépecha in Centralamerica and Mochica in western Peru and can be found in Colombia too (on the mountains). The Tzeltales use it still today and smoke the dried skin. I found one in New Zealand near the coast. The picture was taken in Austria, Steiermark, Wechsel: 8 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whitewind Posted August 30, 2012 I take it you are writing a book mindperformer? Are all these photos yours? It's great having information about plants found in other parts of the world, we have our own specials but sometimes we forget just how rich in tradition and plant usage the Northern hemisphere is. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Micromegas Posted August 31, 2012 Another good thread. However... "Mochica in western Peru" Do you have a source for this? I am quite familiar with the Mochica culture but never came across this. However, there seems to be some evidence (one ceramic as far as I can tell) but I am not quite ready to believe it... one because there is very little supporting evidence in their artwork (then again, san pedro does not feature prominently either), second the pre-columbian distribution of amanita muscaria perhaps did not extend further south than central america, third other contemporaneous or more ancient peruvian cultures do not appear to reference or know of this plant in their artworks. It's open for discussion though certainly so if you have any more information please share. http://psychotropia.co/?p=2090 http://museolarco-herrera.blogspot.com.au/2008/02/curious-portrait-vases.html?zx=1dda32b2ef91900d Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mindperformer Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) thanks, all the photos I use are of my own making. The reference for the Mochica: RÄTSCH 1995b The original text in german: Es gab drei wesentliche Zentren des altamerikanischen Fliegenpilzkultes: das nordöstliche Waldland von Nordamerika (Algonkin, Ojibway, Dogrib vgl. KEEWAYDINOQUAY 1979, LARSEN 1977), das zentrale Mesoamerika (Mayavölker, Azteken, Purépecha; vgl RÄTSCH 1995b) und das westliche Peru (Mochica). Translation without the references: There were three crucial centres of the early American fly agaric cult: the north-eastern timberland from North America (Algonkin, Ojibway, Dogrib), the central Mesoamerica (Mayapeoples, Aztecs, Purépecha) and the western Peru (Mochica). So the text refers to the past. To the South American distribution of Amanita muscaria: http://www.christian-raetsch.de/Artikel/Artikel/Amanita_en_Colombia.html Edited August 31, 2012 by mindperformer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mindperformer Posted August 31, 2012 This is a crowberry-syrup from Norway: I wondered how the fly agaric distributed to New Zealand when I saw it there, but maybe its from the timber trade (pines) and there were roots and soil on some truncs which contained Amanita-mycel... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WoodDragon Posted September 1, 2012 And the obligate fly agaric (Amanita muscaria)- it can only grow in symbiosis with birch or pine. ...or oak. They love oak. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sallubrious Posted September 1, 2012 I wondered how the fly agaric distributed to New Zealand when I saw it there, but maybe its from the timber trade (pines) and there were roots and soil on some truncs which contained Amanita-mycel... It's my understanding that early Australian efforts in pine cultivation were not very successful. It was discovered that European pines needed symbiotic species of fungi to thrive so some of the plantations were inoculated with soil from European plantations and then they thrived. Given our close proximity to NZ I'd say there is a good chance the same problems occurred there and were dealt with the same way. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mindperformer Posted September 1, 2012 ...or oak. They love oak. I didn't know that it loves oak, did you see some in oak-forests? It's my understanding that early Australian efforts in pine cultivation were not very successful. It was discovered that European pines needed symbiotic species of fungi to thrive so some of the plantations were inoculated with soil from European plantations and then they thrived. Given our close proximity to NZ I'd say there is a good chance the same problems occurred there and were dealt with the same way. Very interesting! This must be the reason why they got to NZ. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rizla Posted September 3, 2012 Ledlum in small amounts is great in beer, particularly with Myrica gale. You can pick them togeher easily within 20 minutes of Stockholm in the woods (lots of killer Kantarelle mushrooms for dinner too). Does henbane grow in Scandanavia, or any similar nightshades? Great topic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mindperformer Posted September 3, 2012 my brother is hobby-brewer and made a celtic beer with my Hyoscyamus niger, Myrica gale and a small amount of Ledum palustre. It tastes fine and was way more intoxicating than normal beer. Henbane should grow in southern Scandinavia. Here in Vienna you can find it in parks, especially dogs' areas, because of the nitrogen in the soil. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Francois le Danque Posted September 3, 2012 thanks, all the photos I use are of my own making. The reference for the Mochica: RÄTSCH 1995b The original text in german: Es gab drei wesentliche Zentren des altamerikanischen Fliegenpilzkultes: das nordöstliche Waldland von Nordamerika (Algonkin, Ojibway, Dogrib vgl. KEEWAYDINOQUAY 1979, LARSEN 1977), das zentrale Mesoamerika (Mayavölker, Azteken, Purépecha; vgl RÄTSCH 1995b) und das westliche Peru (Mochica). Translation without the references: There were three crucial centres of the early American fly agaric cult: the north-eastern timberland from North America (Algonkin, Ojibway, Dogrib), the central Mesoamerica (Mayapeoples, Aztecs, Purépecha) and the western Peru (Mochica). So the text refers to the past. To the South American distribution of Amanita muscaria: http://www.christian...n_Colombia.html if i remember correctly, keewaydinoquay's testimony on the use of amanita was at least partially refuted. also ratsch likes to reference wasson but he seems to have been somewhat...imaginative. i recommend 'shroom' by andy letcher for a comprehensive discussion on this. i am interested in any evidence confirming or denying amanita use in the 'new world'. personally i don't think there was any before european colonisation (the second one...), but who knows? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Francois le Danque Posted September 3, 2012 also, on topic, what are people's opinions on amanita being the berserk button? i am not experienced enough with this organism to offer my opinion, but the consensus seems to be that they make you sleepy, not berserk at all.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mindperformer Posted September 3, 2012 The Tzeltal people still use it today and call it tzajal yuy chauk (the red thunderbolt mushroom). They peel the red skin from it, dry it and smoke it mixed with may (Nicotiana rustica). Through the enjoyment of the smoke the shamans get clairvoyant and could see diseases in their patients, find lost or stolen things and make prophecies. Also the shamans of the Chuj (a maya tribe) who live in the southern Selva Lacandona and in northern Guatemala, smoke dried pieces of the mushroom, also mixed with Nicotiana rustica. (MÜLLER-EBELING AND RÄTSCH 1986: vor 96*, RÄTSCH 1992: 78*). In the high valley of Puebla Timothy Knab found an indigenous curandero who smoked the dried mushrooms mixed with tobacco to make ritual diagnosis (DÍAZ 1979: 86*). also in my experiences amanita has 3 phases: after about 1/2-1 hour you feel rather stimulated and strengthened in the the second phase after a few hours you have these strange dissoziative action with a littlebit dreamy sleepiness the third phase is characterised by narcotic action and sleep, with lucid dreams sometimes. A friend had the action for about 3 days, only after smoking the dried skin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rizla Posted December 19, 2012 I haven't found Myrica psychoactive in half an ounce in 5 gallons, but it seems to be a preservative, like hops. In Sweden you can get Pors liquer from the Systembolaget and quite a few brew their own. Ledlum may be more psychoactive but it's rare enough where I live that I'm not wasting any to test the theory. I've smoked Amanita skins too. A good way to experiment. Definitely psychoactive, definitely goes through phases. Not the greatest Berzerker medicine! But they _must_ have tried it, it's fairly ubiquitous in the Stockholm area and not difficult to find. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WoodDragon Posted December 19, 2012 I didn't know that it loves oak, did you see some in oak-forests? It grows under most of the oaks here, as well as under pines and silver birches. It's versatile that way... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nothinghead Posted December 19, 2012 Mindperformer is such a wealth of information, what a valuable member to have here! I have a few questions: (1) I've often found and eaten 'bog bilberry' and other 'bilberries' without any effect other than deliciousness. Is the symbiotic fungus usually visible? (2) The 'crowberry' or krekling is found in Norway (and maybe Sweden) and the Falklands... is there a cultural connection between those isolated plant populations? (3) Is there any reliable source that notes the usage of amanitas among vikings? I'm aware it was and is a culturally significant mushroom in northern europe, but the beserker theories about it appear apocryphal because of (AFAIK) their lack of documentation. Also the gap between experiential accounts (which often note a sedative-like effect) and the folk tales about vikings using the AM as an aid to aggression and courage in war don't seem to add up. Other: Mindperformer, Henbane grows vigourously in scandinavia (even the north) when the season is right. As do most solanaceae including madrakes and tobacco. Frank, what do you mean by the "new world"? euro arrival to the american continent? if so, all i've read have been anecdotal, fictional accounts (which may or may not be based in reality). I concur with your proposition that amanitas appear to induce sleepiness more than rage. Rizla, what would you say about experiential differences between ingesting and smoking amanitas? Do you have any ideas about whether scando's (1000 years ago) would have tried to smoke amanitas? WoodDragon: How do populations of amanita vary between oak and birch forests? I've seen plenty of amanitas growing among birch and also pine tress, but never ever seen one remotely close to an oak. And as you probably know, birch and pine are much better growing mates than oaks. Do you see amanitas near oaks when the oaks are near birch, or when oaks are the dominant population? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Francois le Danque Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) This thread is awesome :D racketemensch: yes i mean the continents of the Americas, when i say New World. And i want to know if people used Amanitas anywhere there before Colombus and co showed up. Obviously a lot of people do so after that at some point... mindperformer: most of your references still rely on Ratsch, who i don't trust for the reasons noted above. your other one warrants looking into, but you have to remember that there is no evidence that the behaviour, if it does/did occur, did so in pre-Colombian times. They could have even taken it up in the 60s when hippies came to visit. ? As for smoking Amanitas, i doubt anyone smoked anything really in Europe until the introduction of tobacco. There are a couple of exceptions, like the smoke-channeling funnels they found for opium smoke inhalation in Crete. And yeah smoking a mushroom seems kinda counterintuitive.. that being said i have found it to taste like barbecue chicken. and greatly enhance the potency of hemp Edited December 19, 2012 by frank 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WoodDragon Posted December 19, 2012 In my area fly agarics seem to grow most vigorously under English oaks. Birches next then pines, but that could be because the pines here are usually on harder ground. There's one individual oak in particular down the road from me that gets at least two hundred mushrooms each autumn, and the largest are a foot or more across. If I remember I'll take a photo next season. There's a group a few kilometers away that grows heaps too, but I don't see them as often so I can't really put a number on the production. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mindperformer Posted December 20, 2012 (edited) raketemensch, as far as I know the bog bilberry- fungus is not visible and not all plants are infected. I have also eaten a few of them and had no effect... the crowberry is a very far distributed plant, but only in the arctic, sub-arctic and sub-antarctic areas. I have found it all over Scandinavia, including Finnland, and even in the alps. here the distribution of the black crowberry (Empetrum nigrum): http://www.discoverl...Empetrum+nigrum The crowberry on the Falklands is Empetrum rubrum: http://www.discoverl...Empetrum+rubrum To my knowledge there is no connection between these populations because they don't grow in hot climates, maybe birds like the arctic tern, which travels between poles, once distributed it to South America, then it E. rubrum differentiated. For Henbane there are new evidences (a bag of henbane seeds in a grave of a Germanic priest) from Northern Germany (Fyrkat). As the Vikings liked beer, also henbane was growing in their area and they had contact to the Germans, the use as beer- additive seems not far away. The distribution of Hyoscyamus: http://www.discoverl...kind=Hyoscyamus Amanita: the theory of the berserkers by Ödmann, seems not to be correct, and there is no direct evidence on the use of FA by the vikings. Wasson mentions the finnish historian Itkonen, who wrote about the use by sorcerers of the Sami people in Inari. When I was in Lappland I heard the Sami had a custom of feeding fly agaric to their deer and collected the urine to drink. They thought their reindeer were flying to space through space, looking down on the world. As we know, the reindeers like to eat it, I think the question is how could the Sami (and also the Vikings?) NOT use this noticeable mushroom, when they saw their intoxicated animals? frank, I think the personal finding of Rätsch who made photos of it in Colombia is very plausible, how it came there is another question. You are right, that there is no real evidence for the pre-columbian use of it in the Americas but I think on the paleo-indians who came from Siberia, where the use of this conspicuous mushroom reaches far back. I also think on the far distribution of it; even accidentally brought to New Zealand. (with pine- plantings?) I agree with you that smoking seems not to be the usual way, how the mushroom was ingested by early european cultures as pipes were very unusual, the cretic opiumpipes were an exception. BUT: remember the scythian sweat tents, it was usual among early european and central asian tribes to put some herbs (and mushrooms?) in the fire to get the smoke, so although such a use is not very plausible, I would not exclude it. I've also smoked it and agree with the taste like barbecue chicken ;-) Edited December 20, 2012 by mindperformer 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Francois le Danque Posted December 21, 2012 excuse me MP, can you please inform the court where Rätsch's photographs are referenced? or to be seen, would be even better. I don't think he mentions this in the encyclopedia (the only work by him i am familiar with). But i could be wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mindperformer Posted December 22, 2012 you are absolutely right, he didn't mention this in his enzyclopedia and other books from him, but this could be because this finding was later (2004) than he wrote the book. for all the others who don't know what we are talking about, here the link: http://www.christian-raetsch.de/Artikel/Artikel/Amanita_en_Colombia.html As we can see, he put the musrooms over a colombian numberplate on one photo, described the habitat very precisely and also added a photo with Dr. Fabio Ramirez... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mindperformer Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) Although I also don't fully agree with all of Rätsch's mentions, for me he IS one of the European 'Grand Masters'. And yes, some of his data are vague statements from other ethnobotanists, but he also made much field research himself and all together he tries to be serious, to my mind. So for me this Amanita- finding in Colombia is very plausible, as Colombia has many climates in the mountains. He found it in the Páramo from Chingaza (near Bogotá) and also indicated that he thinks the pines (Pinus chiapensis) seemed to be planted by humans. This would be a plausible way how the mushroom got there (with the soil on the roots of the planted pines). Edited December 22, 2012 by mindperformer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bigred Posted February 7, 2013 awesome thread dude, you should wright a book Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heretic Posted February 9, 2013 surely the vikings knew of pscilocybes ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mindperformer Posted February 11, 2013 I didn't mention psilocybes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites