Zaka Posted May 26, 2012 Irie, So I've grown this vine for the pass 2 years. Grown from seeds, from Peru, that were labled "White Caapi".. I'm pretty much sure it's Stigmaphyllon sp. My question is what is it used for??? I've seen it in the back ground of a few shots of Peruvian shamans gardens, but no info! But it's now taking over & is choking a couple of citrus trees..... I'm gonna have to hack it back soon!!! Respect, Z Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 naja naja Posted May 26, 2012 The leaves kinda look Piper to me, but the flowers do not. I'd take a guess it's magliphaceae (spelling) family. If it is, could be harmaline alks or tryptamines. I'm sure sum1 who knows alot more than I will chime in. I wish I was in an environment that could grow vines like that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 amanito Posted May 26, 2012 FAMILY: Malpghiaceae GENUS: Tetrapterys SPECIES: Methystica COMMON NAMES: Caapi-pinima Tetrapterys methystica is a scandent bush. It has a trunk with black bark, ashy-yellow branches with internodes at 4-10cm long, branchlets terete, lightly canaliculate, 0.8-3.3mm in diameter. The leaves are chartaceous, ovate, long acuminate, mostly basally rounded, margin entire but slightly revolute. The upper surface of the leaves are bright green, and the under surface is an ashy green. Inflorescences are pseudocorymbose, with 4-5 flowers a-piece, much shorter than the leaves. The fruit, or samara, is ovoid with brownish wings. Tetrapterys methystica is found primarily in the Rio Vaupes Basin, near the border between Columbia and Brazil. TRADITIONAL USES: The Maku people of the Rio Tikie of the Brazilian Amazon prepare a cold-water infusion of T. methystica bark to prepare a strongly hallucinogenic brew. There is no other plant ingredient. The drink is very bitter and has an unusual yellow hue. This may be the ” second kind” of caapi mentioned by several explorers as caapi-pinima, meaning “painted caapi.” The use of the plant was first described in 1954 by Richard Schultes. T. methystica is used by several different groups of indigenous peoples of the region to prepare ayahuasca. It is also decocted by the Makuna people and used as a febrifuge. The peoples of the Rio Piraparana area boil the bark along with Strychnos erichsonii bark for 4-5 hours to produce a weak dart poison. Finally, other species of the plant are used to treat infections and illnesses. TRADITIONAL EFFECTS: Although T. methystica produces effects identical with those of Banisteriopsis caapi, we still know nothing of its chemistry. However, it is closely related to Banisteriopsis and there is every probability that similar or identical alkaloids , including beta-carboline, are present. REFERENCES Hofmann, A., Ratsch, C., Schultes, R., Plants of the Gods: Their Sacred, Healing, and Hallucinogenic Powers. Rochester: Healing Arts Press, 1992. Ratsch, Christian., The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants: Ethnopharmacology and its Applications. Rochester: Park Street Press, 1998. Voogelbreinder, Snu, Garden of Eden: The Shamanic Use of Psychoactive Flora and Fauna, and the Study of Consciousness. Snu Voogelbreinder, 2009. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 amanito Posted May 26, 2012 hmzz, never mind, the leaf looks different Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 naja naja Posted May 27, 2012 yeah, but the flowers look spot on. And I am pretty sure from a botany point of view, flowers are far more important than leaf shape. Sometimes leaf shape changes with maturity. If it is not wat amanito says, it is most deff Magliphaceae after looking at that id chart. If u live in Australia, please collect seed and make cuttings. I would love a plant or two. Peace Naja Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 amanito Posted May 27, 2012 Btw, it's referred to as grey caapi. But, maybe a different variety with different leaf shape? I would love to know more of these other ayahuasca plants Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 amanito Posted May 27, 2012 If you want, send me some dried material, I'll ask someone if he can run a test on alkaloid presence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Zaka Posted May 27, 2012 Irie, Yeah no doubt it's a Malpighiaceae.... Most likely....stigmaphyllon sinuatum.(syn. fulgens)..? http://fm2.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/max/MALP-stig-sinu-per-1696392.jpg The seeds looked like Caapi, single wing.... I'm not in Aus...sorry mate....would love to see the results of any tests.... Respect, Z Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 amanito Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) Go down to Banisteriopsis: http://www.homolaicu...ertext/0209.htm 26) Banisteria sinuata DC. [Prodr. 1:588. 1824] (= Stigmaphyllon fulgens A. Juss.) (= Stigmaphyllon sinuatum (DC.) A. Juss.) Edited May 27, 2012 by amanito Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Torsten Posted June 2, 2012 uh oh! nearly missed this thread. what did the seed look like - single wing? do the leaves have cilia at about 10 and 2 o'clock and sometimes 8 and 4? does the root form a tuber? I got some seed about 6 years ago as Diplo and it produced a VERY vigorous vine that looks very similar to yours. Mine has not flowered because I've kept it in a pot [too weedy]. We chop it back to stump every year and it has produced a thick tuber in the pot. The most distinctive feature are the cilia on the leaves which pretty much only Stigmaphyllon has. I also grew Stigmaphyllon ciliata which was very similar in many respects, but with smaller leaves. Have done a UV test for harmaline which was negative. Did a crude TLC for tryptamines and it was negative too. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Zaka Posted June 2, 2012 Irie T, The cilia seem to occur on all points when leaf is young.... I'm leaning towards Stigmaphyllon sinuatum syn.Stigmaphyllon fulgens... Read a paper by D.Mckenna about this very species and it's regional variations. Not sure if it's made a tuber? But I'll find out soon! The seeds came to me as "White Caapi",single winged, the colour was the same as mahogany seeds.... I still have several that are in pots totally root bound.... The four or so I have in the ground are going crazy, growing much faster than my most vigorous Caapi.... I'll be sending out some samples to europe for analysis...... Respect, Z 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Torsten Posted June 2, 2012 can you post a close up of the leaves please? ie a flat leaf. on my plant the cilia are usualy only reliably visible on young leaves. I'll take some pics tomorrow so we can compare. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 amanito Posted June 2, 2012 And here comes an interesting possible twist to the story: I just did a TLC with the 4 caapis and it seems yellow (Banisteriopsis caapi) and red (Banisteriopsis muricata) have mostly harmine, some harmaline and possibly THH too, while black (Alicia anisopetala) and grey (Tetrapterys Methystica) do not seem to have harmalas at all! They have something else I dont know what it is in TLC, but they were sent to GC-MS. Usually beta carbolines shine distinctly under UV and whatever was there did not seem to really shine. The final GC-MS results should come in two weeks, so lets be patient From: https://www.dmt-nexu...sts&t=32018&p=5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 amanito Posted June 2, 2012 Torsten, please do post those pictures. I think a lot of these plants are misidentified, especially cos Alicia sp and others are used as grey/red/.. ayahuasca and most be sold by shamans/indigenous people to exporters who think they are selling Banisteriopsis caapi. Which means that people are brewing ayahuasca with completely different effects. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 amanito Posted June 2, 2012 I'll be sending out some samples to europe for analysis...... Respect, Z And I do hope that I can count on my contacts for this, fingers crossed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Torsten Posted June 3, 2012 sorry haven't got the pics yet. too overcast yesterday. Zaka, you confirm that your leaves have cilia, but there is no mention of cilia in the botanical description of S.sinuatum/fulgens, or did I miss that part? There are also no cilia in the pics, but I know that dried leaves may not show them properly. This is what stumped me previously as I could not find any Stigmaphyllon that has cilia other than S.ciliata, which this isn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Zaka Posted June 4, 2012 Irie, Here's some more photos.... I had dismissed Stigmaphyllon ciliatum, since it seemed to have a two-winged butterfly seed.... Respect, Z 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 LadySwan Posted June 4, 2012 caapi used in yahuska brew as MAO inhibitor (betacarboline) with other herbs containing DMT, which helps DMT to be absordeb in the body rather to be passed through urine: http://www.dmtsite.com/dmt/information/sources.html sorry, if you already know it as I am really dummy and learn everyday new things Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 amanito Posted June 4, 2012 Hey LadySwan, we're well aware of that , this topic is to determine an ID on a plant which is also used as ayahuasca, but isn't Banisteriopsis caapi. It might contain beta-carbolines or most likely other substances. Informative site, though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Torsten Posted June 4, 2012 great pics. Those cilia are just like mine. I'll try and take the same type of pics so we can compare, however they are not actively growing at the moment as it is cold, so the young leaf pics may not happen. Your young leaves are very bronze, which I am pretty sure mine aren't, but that could certainly just be an individual variation. This does look like the same plant I have. I am pretty certain it is no S.ciliata as ciliata has cilia all along the margin. Ciliata does have quite variable leaf shape [probably depending on degree of shading], but it seems the MANY cilia on the margin are not negotiable for that species. Have you done a UV test with the stem? or used this plant in any way? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Torsten Posted June 4, 2012 see this pic: http://www.botanic.j...sa/sticil_2.jpg is a ciliata with an unusually wide leaf that looks very similar to our plant, but with the usual number of cilia expected in ciliata. I have never seen any pics of ciliata that have just a handful of cilia. I wonder if there is a key for Stigmaphyllon that gets to the trait of cilia and then differentiates by number of cilia. That would be most useful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Zaka Posted June 4, 2012 Irie, Well that leaf looks a fair bit different from mine....Much more ivy leaf shape. Yes mine have a distinct copper/bronze colouration. A key would be great! I came across some descriptions of the cilia in the field notes of various herbariums. I'll try to post links later... Respect, Z Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Torsten Posted June 4, 2012 I found a species that matches mine quite closely. S.auriculatum syn S.aristatum. It has just a few cilia. My leaf can be heart shaped to ivy leaf for mature ones, and oval acuminate for young ones. These extreme variations are also well represented in the herbarium specimen online and in the illustrations. I also have several seed grown individuals and there are differences in leaf shape between them. I don't think the leaf hape is that important. The cilia are a much more distinct trait which does not seem to be common at all. I've just looked at 2 different malphigiaceae genera and have not found cilia on any others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Zaka Posted June 4, 2012 Irie T, The reference to a tuber, nudged the grey matter & I remember studying, a vine that grows locally... Stigmaphyllon convolvulifolium More later! Respect, Z Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 amanito Posted June 4, 2012 Zaka, slightly offtopic ... have you tried any of the local acacia's already? An extraction could give you an idea how much alkaloids they contain. I really wanna visit your country next time I'm in the region, shit so many interesting plants on the list Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Irie,
So I've grown this vine for the pass 2 years.
Grown from seeds, from Peru, that were labled "White Caapi"..
I'm pretty much sure it's Stigmaphyllon sp.
My question is what is it used for???
I've seen it in the back ground of a few shots of Peruvian shamans gardens, but no info!
But it's now taking over & is choking a couple of citrus trees.....
I'm gonna have to hack it back soon!!!
Respect,
Z
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