Duboisia germinations anyone? (JumpedAngel's)

[Happy Cadaver]

SO has anyone had any germinations out of the Duboisia seeds JA sent out a few weeks ago? I thought it might be interesting to track successes and failures.

I've put 2 batches down, one of straight fresh seed and another with a treatment. Nothing yet. I'll update if i get something or nothing in the future.

darcy

[JumpedAngel]

what kind of treatment was it Darcy?

i havent had any movement yet and i have tried a number of fermentations, freezings, smokewater etc.

what shits me is that u often get a quote saying, yes the seed germinates quickly but does not survive. yet no one ever tells ya how long it took, or what treatment was effective, i'm willing to go with patience and a watchfull eye for the moment.

the prisoner that i brought home with me has died boo-hoo

[hebrew]

with the seed i recieved i planted in course sand and lit a fire above the planted seed i let the fire die and then watered

at the moment nothing has germinated, i planted both seed removed from the drupe and whole drupes containing seed

will see how it goes

[ 20. December 2004, 17:30: Message edited by: hebrew ]

[Bolwarra]

no emergence to date.

sown 15.12.04 into 2/3 CSS 1/3 Peat.

Will update if/when necessary..

[ 21. December 2004, 19:27: Message edited by: Bolwarra ]

[JumpedAngel]

it is the silly season, and it's always so difficult to find a bit of clear headed quality time during this part of the year, so many parties, so many distractions, so many idiots on the road, for now all i can say is that the plant has taught me a few new lessons, most significant being to do with its association with water, it will take some time to make full comparisons, most of it is still drying after fermentation although i have had a little taste, for those of u who are ignorant, dont smoke it unless u want to give up smoking tobacco, it will not get u stoned anyway, as for chewing it, i am beggining to see how some individual might have decided that it would make an anaesthetic as there is a vague, 'almost there' numbing of the tongue, however if your chewing it and watching the cricket (oi, oi, oi), you wont even know it's there until u rush out for another cold can during the commercial break, i still find it disorienting, i have yet to try it on a long trek, s-o-o-o-o-o-o-n, there has been no anxiety and the pulse rate has remained low and steady.

i had hoped by now that i would have honoured my intention to provide a sample of the fermented herb to those who completed their trades with me, however, the plant is its own teacher, and the teacher is not working to my timetable but rather his own, somehow you just have to grin and accept this, but i hope to have some more stuff written up for all concerned soon and those lucky people mentioned above should be grinning merrily by the end of the year?, i hope, s-o-o-o-o-o-o-n anyway.

as for the prisoner, well, it was tiny and doesnt warrant consumption anyway as it was not 'fermented', but i will dig it up and have a look at its joints, interestingly, i had a dream about it the night after i acknowledged its passing, i saw it in the dream and it seemed to be speaking to me and telling me that it was not really dead, go figure, not being superstitious i am able to look past the dream into my own subconscious desires and accept them as such but non-the-less will be carefull when i dig it up, and hopefully will have the time to record any significant information photographically at least.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by JumpedAngel:

all i can say is that the plant has taught me a few new lessons, most significant being to do with its association with water

LOL, that exactly the way I felt a week after my trip

But I remeber you saying that you do not accept anyone's knowledge until you have tried it your own way. Pity that it was at the expense of the plant though.

i am beggining to see how some individual might have decided that it would make an anaesthetic as there is a vague, 'almost there' numbing of the tongue

I think the aneasthetic aspect lies a lot deeper than a simple chew. I believe it is possible to make two very different preparations from pituri. One for recreation and one for ritual.

And I hope I am right, cos imagine doing a subscission without an anaesthetic

as for the prisoner, well, it was tiny and doesnt warrant consumption anyway as it was not 'fermented'

There is little purpose in doing the fermentation until we know why it was done. It's like putting grapejuice in a jug and leaving it for 5 days to see if we get a Grange Hermitage 1969.

I think there was a specific purpose for the fermentation/preparation/processing, but it is related to pharmacology and not taste and appearance.

but i will dig it up and have a look at its joints

May I suggest that you don't? I presume you got a root section with some suckers on it. The suckers died. I had the same problem, except some of my suckers recovered several weeks later. If I would have dug it up it would have certainly been their demise. I will try and learn more about what happened once I propagate from the current suckers, but until then I am not digging them up.

On the other hand I had another rootsection and it did nt recover, so it is certainly possible for them to die.

[JumpedAngel]

 

quote:

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LOL, that exactly the way I felt a week after my trip

 

But I remeber you saying that you do not accept anyone's knowledge until you have tried it your own way. Pity that it was at the expense of the plant though

---

ke?... you're trippin dude, i never commented on your desert trip, i dont remember seeing that much of a write-up on your trip or any images either, as for the expense of that plant, well, someone had to do it, and the fact that i have shared this information may mean that someone else may not need to kill another plant unnecessarily to find out the same information all over again, so i guess it is a pity that u were unable to make images available back then otherwise i may have been saved from doing what i did , also, i have yet to locate any sensory organ on the plant, let alone a brain, so im not sure that it suffered any more than that lettuce that i had for dinner yum-yum-yum.

seriously dude, your looking at the biology of the plant and how it has adapted to its environment, and perhaps even some speculation as to its evolutionary origin?... i on the other hand am not a botanist and couldn't care less about a bunch of inane stamp-collector-type theories, i view the plants association with water from a survivalist point of view, my speculations can be put into practice, i can go out there the next time and by then will have constructed the necessary tests that i need to determine the usefullness of the storage vessels, and yes i may need to kill more plants to do this, please excuse me, my theories of the plant are concerned with the plant representing the difference between life and death out there, that is roughly where i want to take this, as for not accepting anything that i can't prove or demonstrate, well, i hope i never have to make an apology for that, thats the difference between knowledge and belief, science and religion, repeatability and regurgitation.

theories are a bit like sMelbournes weather, if you dont like it just wait five minutes.

 

quote:

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And I hope I am right, cos imagine doing a subscission without an anaesthetic

---

dont assume that it is a drug that helps them mitigate the pain of subscission, i am certainly no expert on secret aboriginal practices and i dont pretend to speak for aboriginal people or in their defence either but my suspicion is that subscission was a ritual lesson in the management and tolerance of pain which proved an individuals claim to manhood, i would be so diaspointed if i was to find that this rite of passage turned out to be something that u cheated your way through with the use of drugs, also, try to be mindfull that these people chucked spears at one anothers legs to settle arguments so i would expect that they had a different threashold and understanding of pain to u and i and a different way to deal with pain in general.

 

quote:

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May I suggest that you don't? I presume you got a root section with some suckers on it. ...

---

cheers, i was gonna leave it go for a while anyway, although i can balance my desires against superstitions, i have yet to account for the many examples of intuition which have saved my bacon on so many occasions. i guess it can wait till i get back out there with my butchers knife, hehe.

[planthelper]

hurray,

i think i got one of jumping angels pituri seed's up!! :cool:

germination time 33 days,

the 9mm wingspan embryonic leaves look very pitury like.

nothing special was done to the seeds,

planted onto very fine sandy media, and sprikled with more sand to cover tham only slightly.

i will post a pic to tort maybe he can post it here.

[Torsten]

so no special treatment eh? I thought that might be the case. Did you remove the berry or did you plant the seed with the berry?

would the seed have been exposed to light or was it buried too deep? what lights did you use?

you can post to the gallery yourself quite easily. it's pretty straight forward.

anyway, I've uploaded it there (click for high res image):

http://www.shaman-australis.com.au/gallery...?album=17&pos=6

[ 03. January 2005, 13:22: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[planthelper]

1, i opend all the capsules, more than halve were empty, and an other halve too moldy which got discharged.

2, the potting mix was prepared with washed soil from my current location, which consists of fine river sand.

3, the seeds got placed on top and a bit mor mix was added and flattend out, burrying the seeds maybe ~ 1,5mm.

4, placed on a hot westerly facing verandah, which recives only a few direct sunlight hours.

5, watering might have washed the seed up or down, but i have a huntch that, pituri seeds indeed need light to germinate an as such have to be sown close to the surface.

6, yesterday, i moved the pots to an easterly aspect, which recieves more light.

the pots are/were sheltered from rain at all times.

funny, how the roots seem to crawl on the surface.

late edit:

regarding my statment of 40.000years of usage of pituri... this is not unrealistic if you imagen that thousand of years ago, humans chewed and ate a lot of stuff, we have lost contact with, looking at it "now", only through our microscopes and sientific views...

40.000 years ago humans would have known far more about how to harvest leaves and how to prepare and consume the same, without getting sick. hot stones or/ and charcoal was used in microwave/ earth oven type set ups "to cure" the material.

i think they used fresh material for this procedure.but none of, "our material" has been prepared the traditionell methode, so ther will be lots of room for discussion.

[ 04. January 2005, 11:33: Message edited by: planthelper ]

[planthelper]

 

she carked it.

 

[Torsten]

What a pity!!

Next time try to put it out of direct sun. No seedling really likes to be cooked. A cover of 50% shadecloth should be just right.

If my theory is right then the plant needs to send a strong tap root a long way down to survive in nature. For the radicle to stay on top does not seem right. It could simply be that it got confused and weak (happens with lots of plants) or that it can't cope with the coarse sand grains. Desert sand is extremely fine and much easier for a root to penetrate.

If you get such an exposed radicle again try buring it gently. It would be best to bury it vertically, but if that is not suitable for some reason then piling sand on top of it may just do the trick.

[planthelper]

congratulations darcy,

i wish the baby all the best!

[planthelper]

she's a tricky customer obviosly,

if there is a next time, we try the absolutest driest dessert scenario on them, with loph like light conditions?

one would need a system that removes moisture from the growing area...

anyway, it's still a nice feeling to know that those seeds did germinate to some degree, maybe more will pop up.

[Tryptameanie]

Might this be a candidate for the pitcher plant treatment to increase germination rate? (See my post on EA).

[planthelper]

i don't think pituri needs this treatment,

but thats just a guess.

[Torsten]

Pituri does not seem to like humidty, but it does not mind water. In fact it loves water.

So I will try and raise one in an airconditioned room with plenty of water available.

[Rev]

dont lose sleep

far too many of us experimeters in the one climatic zone trying too hard with species from other climate zones.

Im sure at least half the problem is your tryin to push shit uphill

if theres more seeds they should go to people in the outback who have the right conditions

in point: Pituri and A phlebophylla

Ive never had access to seed but i can scarcely find it believable its as hard to grow as its made out to be.

main reason is the reports and attempts ive seen and the localities most of its been done in are innapropraite.

Give WD some seed or somebody like him down south, up high and cold.

If they cant succeed (and without significant drama) using standard potting mixes used for local reveg of wattles in tubestocks just as theyre commercially done then ill eat my hat.

not a dig at all at in vitro attempts which are something else entirely. just expressing disbelief at the dogma generated by less than proffessional piecemeal experimnets in totally the wrong place

[Torsten]

rev, such phlebo experiments are already underway and have encountered similar problems we've had up here.

re pituri - my plant is doing splendidly even in the humid conditions we've had recently. I personally doubt humidity is a problem - at least not for a plant that is a few weeks old.

[Rev]

bah humbug

im a skeptic

id like to see a control

that is - getting a pro nursery that farms out 000's of trees run it through their system of seeding, soils, pricking out, hardening off etc and planting by the due date. and who doesnt have any idea about its value or rarity so isnt inclined to give it extra care

this way they get all the treatmnet they need when they need it and none they don't

at the moment selling me the idea they r really a troublesome species is nigh impossible as no-one ive met who has been involved - not just SAB and friends but mulga and crew also - has worked in or operated the above mentioned scale or form of nursery management in the right climates

Wandjina nursery is coming on nicely but the potting media, climate and rotation are less than ideal for phlebs since its geared to tropicals

And i can imagine mulgas setup was more primitive

Ive seen back yard ops in Perth by people growing a whole range of species for 'men of the trees' and local etland reveg that run facilities better suited to natives. as well ive seen small scale commercial farm tree nurseries run by friends of mine (and which ive worked in at grass roots). These guys churn out tens of 000's of high quality farm trees of easy and difficult species year in year out for over a decade. And i can say ive never seen anyone over heres setup that even came close - in effieciency, formulation of mixes, success and overall vigour and volume of tubestock produced

as i was saying gearing up to grow subtropicals is one thing but growing natives from the southern half looks very different

Its neither expensive nor difficult to get a good grower to grow a batch on contract.

[ 30. January 2005, 20:54: Message edited by: reville ]

[Torsten]

I gave some seed to a commercial natives propagator in Goulburn last year labelled as A.alpina.

None survived.

My best guess is that they don't like pots.

[Darklight]

reville:

Ive never had access to seed but i can scarcely find it believable its as hard to grow as its made out to be.

I used to think that, but guess what- it is. Lots of very competent people have had lots of good goes at it worldwide over a range of climates.

Given the bizarre metabolic pathway I had to use to get it to produce large leaves and roots, I'm not surprised it is proving difficult to cultivate in vivio.

Perhaps instead of criticising current and past efforts you could put some time into using your expertise to look at possible mycorrhizal associations- and not just the possible Agrobacterium stuff, as we've discussed before. It could have potential applications for agriculture as we also discussed.

that is - getting a pro nursery that farms out 000's of trees run it through their system of seeding, soils, pricking out, hardening off etc and planting by the due date. and who doesnt have any idea about its value or rarity so isnt inclined to give it extra care

That sounds like an excellent plan to waste thousands of seed of an endangered species, I mean really...

[planthelper]

Darklight:

 

Originally posted by reville:

that is - getting a pro nursery that farms out 000's of trees run it through their system of seeding, soils, pricking out, hardening off etc and planting by the due date. and who doesnt have any idea about its value or rarity so isnt inclined to give it extra care

That sounds like an excellent plan to waste thousands of seed of an endangered species, I mean really...

absolutly right dl,

aswell with this 000's aproach,

if you do a mistake it wipes out ooo's of seeds not just 10 or 20, like in small trials.

pest's, wrong cultivation, unforseen factors, this all means,

don't put all you egg's in one basket.

as a probagator, i rather bet 50 times on 20 seeds, or 20 times on 50, but never to plant once, in a single action (1 in a 1000) all of my 1000 seeds.

only if we try different aproaches, we can study what a certain plant like's or what it dislike's.