Uses for dried Catha material???

[indigo264nm]

Hey all... back at my parents house where all my vascular plants live happily in the ground there lies some serious pruning that needs to be done - especially things like Calea, Heimia and also my Cathas.

As far as I know Cathinone decomposes fairly quickly in heat but there are other actives in there that are more stable by memory... pretty sure they are just different stereo-isomers of ep hed rine or something.

Is there much else in there of value from dried material that is known i.e. to promote well being, flush out body systems etc etc

Does the ketone component cathinone degrade into cathine (or whatever you choose to call it) within the plant or does it just metabolise when ingested???

Either way it'd probably be handy to have that material stashed away for the cold n flu season now its cooling down but I'm hesitant with dosing as it could potentially become as uncomfortable as eating a pack of nasal decongestants if the dosing was wrong...

So on that note does anybody have any information on dried alkaloid analysis of Catha material from any of the main strains spread around Aus??? The only info I really stumbled across were taken from fresh samples obviously for the cathinone content analysis and in different parts of the world.

Edited May 14, 2010 by -=IndigoSunrise=-

[planthelper]

good topic!

i know that dried catha at times get used as a tea, smoke and as priem.

naturaly the effects would be rather modest as compared to fresh stuff.

i wonder aswell about the legal situation here, as i have pondered around with the thought to start a catha tea production.

fresh catha get's imported to OZ and chewed here, so i guess if the police and other authoryties allow this grey area in practice, we ought to be allowed to trade aswell the dried material.

i would go even further, if people from the middle east are tolerated to chew fresh qat, so should we all!!

[naja naja]

1000mg of dried plant material, should contain at most ~10mg of cathine and 2 mg of noreph ed rine. Cathinone degrades into the dimer, not cathine as many papers erroniously state.

[Illustro]

personally, i would buy a couple bottles of cheap high proof spirits and just store your fresh leaves from the prunings in a large jar full of the alcohol until you wish to use it. the alcohol should kerb much of the oxidation and will hopefully absorb a large portion of the alkaloids. after a few months just filter out and throw away the leaves (you could probably still chew them if you wish) and enjoy a nice cathinone tipple to sooth that runny nose.

[naja naja]

I have found 2000mg of dried khat in capsule to be more effective and quicker at releaving the symptoms of cronic hayfever than 120mg of pseu do eph edrine. By my calculations that is ~25mg of non racemic PPA in 6:1 ratio of R and S enantiomers. In experimentation, a liquid xtract was tried with 3000mg of dried material in lemon hot water ala cuppa tea style with almost zero relief of hayfever symptoms. It appears capsuled dried material is most effective of these two methods.

P.S. this was green strain

P.P.S. PPA was removed from OTC sales and even script in 1982 in Australia, and just last year for the US I believe due to the fact that it causes heart problems with excessive recreational use.

Edited May 13, 2010 by naja naja

[indigo264nm]

Naja and PH... both the answers are the two things exactly I needed to hear

Would have to say PH that mass production of dried Catha tea bags should by logic be fine, but we have some whacked out government rules about ethno herbs. Sally, Kava, Kratom..need I go on ;).

[Alice]

this was green strain

 

Just to clarify please naja naja - narrow or green broad?

[indigo264nm]

Naja - Have you tried a PPA extract before on dried material???

Edited May 14, 2010 by -=IndigoSunrise=-

[naja naja]

No, but would be intersteing to try.

And it was green broad leaf, not narrow.

Dried khat would never be legal if push comes to shove. For that matter, neither would fresh, but there are importations legally in place in some states. Weird, deff grey area. The way I read the law says illegal, but it all comes down to interperatation

Edited May 14, 2010 by naja naja

[Atlas]

Does making a high alc tincture with fresh catha leaves let it degrade, or will this store most of the cathnione and other good things

[naja naja]

I hear stored in dilute acid ethanol is best. Unsure of how quick degredation takes place under these conditions though. Look up how they store medical, synthesised cathinone for hints.

[indigo264nm]

Yeah it's strange with legalities because I don't really see the big deal with chewing fresh Catha... you have to consume a fair bit of fresh material to which I'd probably get stronger effects from a red bull - although a less healthy alternative.

Furthermore with dried Catha, which has less stimulating properties without the cathinone, I don't understand why they could possibly see it as a threat when you see 12 year olds walking around with those ludicrous size Mother cans.

[planthelper]

and i think to know, that catha leaves are full of beneficial trace elements and minerals and all that stuff, which is said to be good for you, hehe.

in my opinon, chewing qat is as healthy as eating an apple!

if one would dry catha herb, i would seperate the tips and young leaves from the rest of the material, as they would be regarded as the "more potent stuff".

young leaves of all sorts of plants, often have this reddish sheen on them, and if dried, this leaves almost look a bit "glossy", well with catha i think they would make the best tea.

the same parts of the normal tea plant, make in fact the most expensive tea sold.

i wonder, how much fresh material one could add to some high proof alcohol?

back in austria, i would sometimes help to pickle plums in rum, and the jar contents never turned bad,

so i guess one could pack quite an ammount of material into the alcohol.

[Illustro]

Alcohol will keep a large concentration of leaves fresh for a very long time. Even honey will keep them fresh for decades (if using honey you may need to dehydrate them a bit), but alcohol is much easier to deal with when it comes to ingestion.

If you are using normal proof spirits, you could probably get away with about a 70:30 khat:alc ratio. Even fresh leaves, alcohol becomes septic at around 10-15% with a general threshold of around 2% - so just consider how concentrated your spirits are and how much water your leaves will add to the mix.

I remember reading an amateur research article on khat in general, stating that it contained notable amounts of l-ascorbate (vit. c) and other interesting nutrients. Hardly sounds like the demonic curse that it has been made out to be, remember kiddies - everything in moderation.

I have access to over 230 research papers on Catha edulis, i mean to read them but i simply do not have the time - i feel kinda guilty having access to this great information and not sharing!

Here is the introduction and a figure from an article which i think is very relevant to this thread:

Chappell, J.; Lee, M. 2009. Cathinone preservation in khat evidence via drying. In. Forensic Science International, volume 195 pp 108-120. Drug Enforcement Administration, Western Laboratory, 390 Main Street, Room 700, San Francisco, CA 94105, USA.

A primary concern with the forensic analysis of the khat plant (Catha edulis) has been the need to

preserve the principle psychoactive component, cathinone, which converts to the less-active substance,

cathine, after harvesting. The loss of cathinone has serious legal implications since it is a Schedule I

controlled substance under federal regulations in the United States, while cathine is Schedule IV. A

common misconception is that cathinone is highly unstable once the plant is harvested, and may be

undetectable upon drying and prolonged storage. However, drying the plant material will preserve

cathinone. Numerous seizures of a dried form of khat (referred to as ‘‘graba’’ in the United States) have

been made in recent years, suggesting that drying the plant material is a viable approach to preserve khat

evidence for both storage and reanalysis. A qualitative and quantitative study of the composition of khat

samples seized as dried plant material has found the khat alkaloids to be relatively stable for a monitored

period of 3 years, and cathinone has remained identifiable while stored at room temperature for over 10

years. Studies of green khat (received moist) have also determined that drying the moist leaves at either

room temperature or by the application of heat are suitable methods to preserve cathinone in the dried

material. These findings demonstrate that cathinone persists in dried khat for a time frame of several

years, and simple drying techniques are an effective means to preserve seized khat evidence for longterm

storage.

It appears you would be safe just drying the leaves at room temperature! It makes sense when you consider how robust plant cells are, it is easy to be sucked in by common knowledge sometimes. But common/social knowledge should never underestimated! There are many things that science is entirely capable of over-looking, this article may prove that these alkaloids are entirely stable but there may be some grain of truth to the rapid oxidation argument.

Indigo; how about you do a bio-assay for us? I'm sure you wouldn't mind getting high in the name of science? If you end up with a significant amount of leaves, perhaps you could dry some out then in one years time compare the effects of two doses of equal leaf count? (fresh leaf vs. one year old dry leaf)

Edited May 15, 2010 by solvo.vestri

[naja naja]

cathinone does NOT degrade to cathine! It degrades to (most likely inactive) Dimer.

[Alchemica]

Seems to be plenty of information regarding the enzymatic reduction of cathinone to cathine/norephedrine in the fresh plant material [young shoots exibit a NADPH dependent enzymatic reduction of (−)-cathinone to (+)-cathine and (−)-norephedrine] ... dimerisation to 3,6-dimethyl-2,5-diphenyldihydropyrazine (and the pyrazine on exposure to air) is also rapid, making the dimers to be the most likely product to form in conditions not favouring the enzymatic reduction. I assume rapid dehydration of the leaf after picking (in the paper mentioned above) prevents the enzymes from reductively degrading the cathinone but in the absence of a strong acid to stabilise it as a salt, dimerisation would likely become the major degradation pathway.

Developmental patterns of phenylpropylamino alkaloids accumulation in khat, R. Krizevski et al., Journal of Ethnopharmacology 114 (2007) pp. 432–438 is worth a read.

 

 

khat.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

khat.pdf

khat.pdf

[Atlas]

Nice info all, thanks

[naja naja]

Seems to be plenty of information regarding the enzymatic reduction of cathinone to cathine/norephedrine in the fresh plant material [young shoots exibit a NADPH dependent enzymatic reduction of (−)-cathinone to (+)-cathine and (−)-norephedrine] ... dimerisation to 3,6-dimethyl-2,5-diphenyldihydropyrazine (and the pyrazine on exposure to air) is also rapid, making the dimers to be the most likely product to form in conditions not favouring the enzymatic reduction. I assume rapid dehydration of the leaf after picking (in the paper mentioned above) prevents the enzymes from reductively degrading the cathinone but in the absence of a strong acid to stabilise it as a salt, dimerisation would likely become the major degradation pathway.

Developmental patterns of phenylpropylamino alkaloids accumulation in khat, R. Krizevski et al., Journal of Ethnopharmacology 114 (2007) pp. 432–438 is worth a read.

 

 

 

khat.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

Corrected. Upon standard air drying cathinone does not degrade to cathine or noreph edri rine, but rather the Dimer. So that just makes me think once again. What a wonder full world it is with yeast Been pondering this for a while now. That paper suggests I might be thinking along the right lines.

Eddit: Khat beer anyone??

Edited May 15, 2010 by naja naja

[Illustro]

I just had a skim through the DEA article i quoted last night, i didnt really read anything more than the intro at the time - here what it says about dimerization.

Chappell, J.; Lee, M. 2009. Cathinone preservation in khat evidence via drying. In. Forensic Science International, volume 195 p. 109. Drug Enforcement Administration, Western Laboratory, 390 Main Street, Room 700, San Francisco, CA 94105, USA.

Cathinone undergoes other reactions that may further complicate

its analysis. As a ketoamine, cathinone undergoes dimerization

and auto-oxidation to form 3,6-dimethyl-2,5-diphenylpyrazine

[7,14]. This degradation reaction readily occurs when cathinone is

extracted as the base form and is subsequently evaporated to a

concentrated solution or a solid residue. However, dimerization is

not observed in strongly acidic solutions [5,14], where cathinone is

protonated and exists as a solvated ion-pair. Enolization of the

ketoamine segment also facilitates racemization at the C2 sitewhile

cathinone is insolution, particularly inpolar solvents [3]. These sidereactions

do not occur in vivo, but their products often appear as

artifacts resulting from the extraction and preparation steps.

Racemization can also occur during the drying process after the

plant is harvested [15,16].

EDIT: and this is interesting.

The conversion of cathinone into cathine in the fresh plant can be

retardedby several techniques.Refrigerationor freezinghas become

a common protocol for scientific studies and forensic analyses

[16,18]. Refrigeration slows both the conversion to cathine, as well

as decomposition of the plant, and may allow cathinone to be

detected for several weeks [22]. However, the conversion is not

completely halted at freezing temperatures. A time study of freshly

harvested material found that a refrigerated sample degraded to

comparableamounts of cathinone and cathine after 14 days at2 8C

when initially no cathine was detected [22]. The cathinone content

was also not maintained in samples stored frozen at 11 8C, which

continued to show an increase in cathine levels up to 48 days of

storage. Another established approach for preserving perishable

substances involves freeze-drying, although this method has

inherent limitations. Freeze-drying requires expensive equipment

that can process only limited quantities at a time, and this

equipment is not commonly available in many crime laboratories.

In recent years, numerous seizures of dried khat have been

reported by domestic crime laboratories [23–25], where the dried

material has been called ‘‘graba.’’ The precise manner of drying

used to prepare the material is unknown, but cathinone and

cathine were readily identified. Historically, dried khat has been

consumed as an ingredient in food or as a tea [26], and there are

isolated reports of the dried leaves being smoked [27]. The

availability of a dried form suggests that simply drying the plant

material in a timely manner, with or without the application of

heat, may be an effective method for preserving khat evidence. The

present study examines several simple methods of drying khat,

and quantitatively assesses the long-term stability of cathinone in

the resulting dried material.

Edited May 15, 2010 by solvo.vestri

[naja naja]

It's interesting how diff scientist/ research comes up with diff results. How can we agree if they don't?

Chemistry

The environment and climate conditions determine the chemical profile of khat leaves. In the Yemen Arab Republic, about 44 different types of khat exist originating from different geographic areas of the country [7,8]. Its taste varies from one kind to another and depends on

the tannic acid content. Khat leaves have an astringent taste and have an aromatic odour. The young leaves are slightly sweet.

Many different compounds are found in khat including alkaloids, terpenoids, flavonoids, sterols, glycosides, tannins, amino acids, vitamins and minerals [9-11]. The phenylalkylamines and the cathedulins are the major alkaloids. The cathedulins are based on a poly-hydroxylated sesquiterpene skeleton and are basically polyesters of euonyminol. Recently, 62 different cathedulins from fresh khat leaves were characterized [12]. The khat phenylalkylamines comprise cathinone [s-(–)-cathinone], and the two diastereoisomers cathine [1S,2S-(+)-norpseudoephedrine or (+)-norpseudoephedrine] and norephedrine [1R,2S-(–)-norephedrine]. These compounds are structurally related to amphetamine and noradrenaline. The plant contains the (–)-enantiomer of cathinone only; the (+)-enantiomer is not found [11]. Thus, the naturally occurring S-(–)-cathinone has the same absolute configuration as S-(+)-amphetamine. Cathinone is mainly found in the young leaves and shoots. During maturation, cathinone is metabolised to cathine [(+)-norpseudoephedrine] and (-)-norephedrine. The leaves contain [(+)-norpseudoephedrine] and (-)-norephedrine in a ratio of approximately 4:1 [11].

Other phenylalkylamine alkaloids found in khat leaves are the phenylpentenylamines merucathinone, pseudomerucathine and merucathine. These seem to contribute less to the stimulant effects of khat [10,13,14] and will not be reviewed here.

Cathinone is unstable and undergoes decomposition reactions after harvesting and during drying or extraction of the plant material [10,11,15,16]. Decomposition leads to a 'dimer' (3,6-dimethyl-2,5-diphenylpyrazine) and possibly to smaller fragments. Both the dimer and phenylpropanedione have been isolated from khat extracts [15]. As cathinone is presumably the main psychoactive component of khat, this explains why fresh leaves are preferred and why khat is wrapped up in banana leaves to preserve freshness.

The phenylalkylamine content of khat leaves varies within wide limits. Fresh khat from different origin contained on the average 36 mg cathinone, 120 mg cathine, and 8 mg norephedrine per 100 gram of leaves [7]. Toennes et al. (2003) found 114 mg cathinone, 83 mg cathine and 44 mg norephedrine in 100 gram of khat leaves confiscated at Frankfurt airport [17]. Widler et al. (1994) found 102 mg cathinone, 86 mg cathine and 47 mg norephedrine in 100 gram of fresh leaves from Kenya confiscated at Geneva Airport [18]. Al-Motarreb et al. (2002) reported higher levels of cathinone in fresh leaves: 78 – 343 mg/100 gram [8].

Khat leaves also contain considerable amounts of tannins (up to 10% in dried material) and flavonoids [8,19].

A. Chemical Names: cathinone: S-(–)-cathinone; S-(–)-α-aminopropiophenone; (S)-2-amino-1-phenyl-1-propanone;

cathine: 1S,2S-(+)-norpseudoephedrine; 1S,2S-(+)-phenylpropanolamine; 2-amino-1-phenyl-1-propanol;

norephedrine: 1R,2S-(–)-norephedrine; 1R,2S-(–)-phenylpropanolamine; 2-amino-1-phenyl-1-propanol;

The effects of khat are obtained by chewing the tender leaves and shoots. Fresh leaves are preferred as the psychoactive properties decrease after harvesting, in particular during drying of the plant material. This is caused by the decomposition of cathinone into an inactive 'dimer' [15].

4.4KhatCritReview.pdf

Edited May 16, 2010 by naja naja

[Illustro]

The fact that cathine and cathinone break-down is undeniable, but how much affect this has on the psychoactive yield is something to be debated.

The article i have been quoting basically said that if you dry the leaves carefully a significant amount of alkaloids will degrade, but the majority of psychoactive alkaloids will remain stable - and once dried the future degradation is negligible.

I cant link the article, its on a private database - i am probably in breach of copyright for even quoting it

Edited May 16, 2010 by Illustro Verum

[Atlas]

I just had a skim through the DEA article i quoted last night, i didnt really read anything more than the intro at the time - here what it says about dimerization.

Chappell, J.; Lee, M. 2009. Cathinone preservation in khat evidence via drying. In. Forensic Science International, volume 195 p. 109. Drug Enforcement Administration, Western Laboratory, 390 Main Street, Room 700, San Francisco, CA 94105, USA.

EDIT: and this is interesting.

 

I believe looking into this "graba" is the best answer, does it also mean that a vinegar extraction would be better than an ethanol?

[naja naja]

Cathinone undergoes other reactions that may further complicate

its analysis. As a ketoamine, cathinone undergoes dimerization

and auto-oxidation to form 3,6-dimethyl-2,5-diphenylpyrazine

[7,14]. This degradation reaction readily occurs when cathinone is

extracted as the base form and is subsequently evaporated to a

concentrated solution or a solid residue. However, dimerization is

not observed in strongly acidic solutions [5,14], where cathinone is

protonated and exists as a solvated ion-pair. Enolization of the

ketoamine segment also facilitates racemization at the C2 sitewhile

cathinone is insolution, particularly inpolar solvents [3]. These sidereactions

do not occur in vivo, but their products often appear as

artifacts resulting from the extraction and preparation steps.

Racemization can also occur during the drying process after the

plant is harvested [15,16].

EDIT: and this is interesting.

Quote

The conversion of cathinone into cathine in the fresh plant can be

retardedby several techniques.Refrigerationor freezinghas become

a common protocol for scientific studies and forensic analyses

[16,18]. Refrigeration slows both the conversion to cathine, as well

as decomposition of the plant, and may allow cathinone to be

detected for several weeks [22]. However, the conversion is not

completely halted at freezing temperatures. A time study of freshly

harvested material found that a refrigerated sample degraded to

comparableamounts of cathinone and cathine after 14 days at2 8C

when initially no cathine was detected [22]. The cathinone content

was also not maintained in samples stored frozen at 11 8C, which

continued to show an increase in cathine levels up to 48 days of

storage. Another established approach for preserving perishable

substances involves freeze-drying, although this method has

inherent limitations. Freeze-drying requires expensive equipment

that can process only limited quantities at a time, and this

equipment is not commonly available in many crime laboratories.

In recent years, numerous seizures of dried khat have been

reported by domestic crime laboratories [23–25], where the dried

material has been called ‘‘graba.’’ The precise manner of drying

used to prepare the material is unknown, but cathinone and

cathine were readily identified. Historically, dried khat has been

consumed as an ingredient in food or as a tea [26], and there are

isolated reports of the dried leaves being smoked [27]. The

availability of a dried form suggests that simply drying the plant

material in a timely manner, with or without the application of

heat, may be an effective method for preserving khat evidence. The

present study examines several simple methods of drying khat,

and quantitatively assesses the long-term stability of cathinone in

the resulting dried material.

[Atlas]

The method for graba seems very hard to find but i will find it, its done in ethipoia mostly so it can't be to hard!!

I just found this article its a bit off topic only mentions graba once but it has some pretty cool busts of plants etc

http://www.justice.gov/dea/programs/forensicsci/microgram/mg0404/mg0404.html

[Illustro]

I would assume they simply leave it out to dry?

If you wanted to get fancy you could get a food dehydrator or a vacuum pump.

Or put the leaves in the oven at ~50'C