Egyptian EthnoBeer

[Monk]

Hi. I posted this in the 'Ethnobotanical Beer' thread, but got no responses. Forgive me if you've already seen it, but damn I need answers...

Just ordered some new ethnobotanicals (hooray!) including 125 g Nymphaea caerulea plumules, 25 g Mandrake root, as well as various others for my next root beer batch etc. I've not tried to even make tea from the blue lilly before, but it sounds as though it may make a nice floral bittering agent for an ethnobeer. 100 grams are reserved for this purpose after experimentation. I got the mandrake on a whim because it was cheap and the combo with Nymphaea would be something of an Egyptian theme. Does anyone have any experience with appropriate dose for this plant? I'm looking for synergy with the blue lilly, but with minimal side effects...Recommendations are desperately needed as info on safe use of this plant is severely lacking.

[Conan Troutman]

Your lack of responses might have something to do with the fact that as with other tropane plants, dosing is really a guessing game I imagine it may take you a awhile to get the dose where you want it. Saying that....

Smoked doses about the size of a match head are said to be active, for oral dosing with synergy from EtoH and other herbs, you would suspect the dose to be minuscule, make a standardised batch and test it..God Speed

[Monk]

Thanks for the response, Conan! Good point about needing standardization. I guess I was just looking for the easy way out, but your 'match head' comment gives at least a general guideline for testing of said extract. Shit though, that sure isn't much! I'll have to take 'er sleezy with this ally for sure. I suppose the best thing to do would be to make an extract and dilute several times to produce a sort of homeopathic mandragora tincture...that way the dose/response curve will be less steep. Also, a diluted tincture would be better for the threshold effects/flavor that I'm seeking anyway. Thanks again for puttin' me on the right track, Conan

EDIT: So I just found this: eMandrake.com

It's an interesting site, though not much of a forum. Also, the dose is listed as "less than 30 grains" in red wine. That would come out to just under 2 grams according to google calculator. Sounds like the above mentioned standardized tincture is the way to go, but this gives a good starting point. Maybe I'll start out with 25% of that and work up for safety's sake.

Edited August 29, 2007 by FeloniousMonk

[nothinghead]

25 grams per 20 litres of liquid would be a good starting point - effects should be noticable to strong at 0.5 to 1 litre. Start small with your dosing and test the waters before drinking this amount though, as Conan said the alkaloids can be variable.

[Monk]

cough, is this info from personal experience or otherwise? Regardless, I will exercise great caution and make a standardized tincture and start small before adding it to anything else as you and others have wisely noted. However, if you have actually utilized this plant I would like to hear your experiences with it. Feel free to post it in this thread if you like.

[Monk]

25 grams of European Mandrake was ground to a powder in a coffee grinder and covered with 200 ml vodka (40%ABV.) After several days of soaking/swirling/shaking, it was time to test it. This makes for a 1:8 tincture, meaning that 1 ml should be equal to 0.125 grams of root. At first, 1 ml was consumed in 6 oz. of a fine Scottish Ale. The flavor impact was minimal, earthy, and pleasant, IMO. Subtle, mildly stimulating effects were noticed. 1 more milliliter was consumed similarly after 30 min. Stronger effects that were more sedating, but only subtly different from alcohol. 2 ml more consumed. Now the total dose was up to 4 ml or about .5 grams root. Again, effects were like alcohol alone, but stronger than the amount consumed and with certain perceptual differences. Vision at night was fuzzy and focus came slower with changing view of surroundings. The walk was quite enjoyable. On returning home, 2 ml more was consumed in 6 oz. ale. The flavor was growing on me, too. Sitting still, watching a movie, effects beyond alcohol are barely noticable. Upon standing, shifting perspective, and moving around, however, the same effects as before are noticed but stronger. Sleep came easy, which is strange for me. Vision on waking was much more blurry than usual and skin felt tingly/prickly though not unpleasantly. Now it's all cleared up. All in all, I had 6 ml of the tincture, which should be the equivalent of about .75 grams of root. Next experiment (to come later) is 8 ml in 12 oz. ale at once.

FM

[Conan Troutman]

break out the broomstick

might pay to be careful next time, as with continuous dosing you would suspect some sort of tolerance

[devance]

European Mandrake, or belladona.

Best absorbed through the uterious or anal.

[broomstick]

Possibly females can become insane with fertility rituals.

Beware the pagans.

And also the pagans that controll the pagans.

[apothecary]

break out the broomstick

might pay to be careful next time, as with continuous dosing you would suspect some sort of tolerance

I think it's actually reverse tolerance (but that's probably what you meant)...depending on how soon you reuse there will be a definite cumulative anticholinergic effect.

[Monk]

might pay to be careful next time

Do you mean 'careful again' or 'more careful than this' bioassay? I felt that these stepwise doses were fairly conservative considering the fact that a more typical dose is considered to be around 2 grams. Now that I know, from this experience, that my root (haha) is not some extraordinarily poisonous version, I think 1 gram should be safe in a sitting. I will, however, pay head to caution and refrain from bumping this up until the following time (with plenty of time between to prevent tolerance.) According to info over at eMandrake.com, you are quite right about the tolerance for CNS effects, conan. The deleterious effects, though, do not decrease with tolerance so caution is quite necessary. Devance, you refered to 'European Mandrake' as 'belladonna.' I know that herbals of old had some confusion over the naming of solanaceous plants, but this one was also labeled as 'Mandragora officinarum,' not Atropa belladonna. This vendor tends to be right on with his stuff, but I have seen a similar mistake before i.e.'brazilian sassafras' labeled S. albidum, when it was likely Ocotea cymbarum. I think it is likely, though, that if there is a mistake in the labeling, it lies with the common name on the package.

But besides that, fuck yeah, "beware the pagans." Oh, and I'd like to think I've outgrown the stage where drugs go in the 'out.' That's all your gettin' from me on that subject. And furthermore, Possibly females can become insane with fertility rituals?!? I think there must be some typo here. I believe you meant to say, "Likely females will become even more insane with fertility rituals." Now that's some scary shit right there. (Sorry, honey, if you're reading this, but you know it's true )

FM

[MORG]

I believe you meant to say, "Likely females will become even more insane with fertility rituals." Now that's some scary shit right there. (Sorry, honey, if you're reading this, but you know it's true )

FM

I thought he meant she'll go insane if she finds you shoving a mandrake-treated broomstick up your clacker.

Fair point I thought.

Devance for President!

Edit: Oh, and beware of pagans.

Edited September 14, 2007 by MORG

[Conan Troutman]

I would suspect that after frequent dosing like u did, the effects from say half of what you had in one single dose might be a bit different...only one way to find out i guess..

[Monk]

Last night was a double brew night A slightly modified recipe for an extract+steeped grain Belgian Triple was used as follows.

6 lbs. pale dry malt extract

3 lbs. fresh avocado honey

1 lb. pale crystal malt (steeped)

0.5 lb. torrified wheat (steeped)

1.5 oz. stryian goldings (bittering)

1 oz. saaz. (aroma)

Flameout:

1/4 tsp. ground cardamom

1/4 tsp. ground ginger

.4 oz. coriander seed

Added to brew bucket:

vodka soaked 100 g. dried Nymphaea caerulea

25 g. Nelumbo nucifera plumules ('cuz I had them right there )

Pitched WLP 530 abbey ale yeast ('cuz its a tasty barn burner of a yeast)

I decided to not add the mandrake to be conservative and also to allow me to consume just Nymphaea beer alone if desired. If the full "Egyptian" theme is desired, I will simply add measured amounts of my tincture to the brews at pouring.

FM

[MORG]

Wow dude. That's mouth-watering. I'm impressed. That's some creative brewing.

What's your set-up? A regular plastic carboy? Do you require heating? What temp is optimum for that abbey ale yeast?

I might have to give this one a go myself if I can source all those ingredients. I don't even know what torrified wheat or styrian goldings is!

How long before you'll give her her first try? 6 weeks? More? Please let us know how it goes.

Edited September 17, 2007 by MORG

[Monk]

Thanks for the interest, MORG. Lessee. My setup is ghetto-tek extraordinaire. Food grade 6 gallon bucket with stoppered airlock for primary. 5 gallon glass carboy for secondary. Temps are around 65-75 deg F (sorry, stupid American here ) so no need for heating. White Labs says the optimal temp for this yeast is 66-72 (http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp530.html) so I'm okay with ambient temps right now, but I do have a brew belt heater if necessary. The thing about belgian yeast strains, though, is that they like higher temps and just make more esters up there. My last swing at the root metheglyn used temps in the 80s and made for some serious ester profile that was quite nice, but I may just see what happens at these more moderate temps. I'm hoping this comes out okay, cuz it's actually my first attempt at a belgian ale. The recipe was pulled from Radical Brewing by Randy Mosher, but the spices were added for some extra character. I was originally going to use Grains of Paradise (Afromum sp.) but couldn't find them around brew time. I had read on a beer forum about someone having success with these herbs in a belgian ale, so tossed 'em in. Besides, the Belgians themselves are all about improvisation and self expression in beer making. As many of us know, the Nymphaea has some significant bittering properties, so I went light on the hops (styrian goldings, saaz) to make room for this. There should be the equivalent of 5 grams Nymphaea per liter of ale, so psychoactivity should be a nice balance btw the lilly and the expected ~8% alcohol by volume. The flowers were very high quality and retained good coloration so I'm thinking this should be a potent beverage. I think it'll probably be about 2-3 weeks in primary and another 3-4 in secondary (I like to err on the side of longer for good mellowing.) I always taste test at every racking and at bottling so I'll post the results. Sorry for my typical block-of-text response and I will keep records of the progress in this thread.

p.s. I didn't know what torrified wheat was either 'til I looked it up for this brew Apparently, its just wheat that has been heated 'til it 'pops' to gelatinize the proteins. This allows the wheat to be used as an adjunct to provide body/head retention while preventing the grains from mucking up the steeping/mashing process with soluble glutens.

Fingers crossed,

FM

[MORG]

Sounds grand.

The most complex brewing I've done was a Hoegaarden Witbier imitation with pre-mixed wort and coriander and orange zest. You've got me wanting to get more serious now. I've got a good source of fresh Nymphaea which should be going bezerk about now too.

Is there any reason why you couldn't do this with a single 25L carboy? (i.e. is your secondary fermentation step totally necessary?)

[Monk]

The only advantage of racking to secondary is to assist in clarification, yeast separation etc. Also, getting all those flowers in and out of a narrow opening may be a bit of a challenge and bottling off the top of all that yeast/flower stuff may be a little tricky. Other than that, I don't see why you couldn't do it in one glass carboy. Make sure you sanitize the flowers with boiling water or vodka (I prefer the latter) prior to adding them as I'm sure they are covered with little organisms that would love to make your beer home I love good witbier, by the way! Creamy, estery, fruity, floral goodness, YUM! I'm thirsty.

FM

[Monk]

So I couldn't possibly be happier at this point with how this brew is turning out! I racked to secondary tonight so I had my first taste. I tastes like a belgian tripel! "No shit," you may say, "that's what you brewed." Well, I was concerned that the lilly would over bitter things, but that's just not the case. The floral smell goes great with the estery yeast profile and herbs and the bitterness is just right so far. This could be a winner, but I've still got my fingers crossed 'cuz it aint over 'til I'm pouring it into pint glasses The problems I've encountered with this brew are as follows: All those flower petals really fucked with my racking process! Some were floaters, some were sinkers, and some were right in between! This made for many clogs while racking. When I got down to the last 2 liters, I got so many clogs I just quit racking and poured that portion threw mesh and a funnel into a 2 liter growler and stuck it in the fridge. Waste not, want not, eh? I'll just drink that stuff still and sweet. Next time, I'm gonna put all the flowers (or whatever) in a hop bag in the fermenter. The other thing is that the brew is very cloudy. I'm not sure if it will clear, but it's gonna need time in the secondary to do it. If the flowers clouded it up and it won't clear, so be it, but it would be nice for this to look like I know what I'm doing. (Shh, don't tell anyone I'm totally winging it ) Some time soon, I'm gonna drink a liter of the cold crashed stuff and see what happens Woohoo!

FM

[planthelper]

i stopped drinking 2 years ago, and i used to do a bit of homebrewing, now i have alcohol very rarly and only in small ammounts... one time a friend said to me, no more booze, this is a tough call, what are you now looking forward to?

well, i said other things are now what, i'm looking forward to, simple things like, a nice shower, or a walk, or a cup of coffee. in short, i have other things now giving me those natural highs and one of them is reading about your brewing, in short it's the closest i'm getting to experiencing the brewing and tasting scene this day's. your stile and descriptions are so convincing, i sometimes can almost taste your stuff!! some people stopp drinking and think they can return to it in a moderate fashion, as long as they stick to, just some special drinks or brews, but mostly this fails. if any brews would deserve the title "very special" than it's probably your drinks, hence i put my hand up and say, if possible, i would'nt mind trying one of your creations, when ever it might happen.

[Monk]

planthelper, that's a really nice thing to say I would love for you to have the chance to try this one in particular. I'm not sure how that could happen as California and Australia are pretty far apart, but I guess where there's a will, there's a way...

About the cloudiness I mentioned, I'm now thinking it might be due to the wheat addition. Maybe I heated too much or something. Anyway, I guess it's now a 'tripel wit' MORG, looking back at your post and your intentions to make a similar ale, I wanted to emphasize the need for a hop bag for the flowers. It will make your life much easier when it comes time to rack! I think I'm looking at two weeks in secondary and 4 weeks bottle conditioning til it's ready, but I can't wait

It's funny, I feel like I've got a bunch of friends I've never met on the other side of the world ...Thanks for the interest and feedback, guys. If I ever take a vacation to Oz or vice versa....

FM

[MORG]

You've got a couch to crash on here in Oz, FM! (Or a spare bed, a sofa bed or maybe a mattress on the floor, but bedding nonetheless).

Sounds like a beautiful beer mate. I'll be coming to you for guidance when I get my shit together and brew my own

[apothecary]

Yeah I'll add my vote in there too FM, our household is cranking out the homebrew this Spring with renewed interest and some inspiration from your posts.

[Vertmorpheus]

I was a bit too busy last brew season to get much started up at all... hadn't really thought about this time around, until I dropped yeast into some left over apple juice a couple of weeks ago and forgot about it til yesterday.... even at the crudest level, nothing beats homemade All those hillbilly-preferred higher alcohols etc. Complete lack of synthetic clearing agents, stablisiers, pasteurisation, glycerine and anything else added for "mouth feel"... lovely!

I have a bigarse jar of freshly dried jasmine flowers, some recently and kindly arrived Nymphaea stamens and a bunch of other things, the usual suspects...time to get cracking methinks , cheers for the inspiration FM...though you'll have to wait til I finish moving house<grumblegrumbleshit>Growing a lot of lemon balm and valerian this year, sure some of that will find its way into something eventually too. I keep getting funny dreams about a mace enriched ginger beer .

I find that I get drunk more when I am brewing, but somehow care less about running out than I do if its something I have paid retail for... but then I don't find drinking all that entertaining a lot of the time, whereas I DO like the look of worry-confusion-discovery-joy on the faces of people I serve tasty things to. Maybe alcoholism by proxy, or something... Sizlaks Syndrome?

VM

[Monk]

Frankly, gentlemen, I'm flattered especially considering my newbee-ness to the sport. I suppose I've just approached it with the same calculatedly reckless obsession that I approach all of my fascinations It's great to hear that the inspiration is spreading! Because of geographical constraints, inspiration and information are about the only ways I can contribute to this community, so that feels good. Vert, it sounds like you've got some very interesting raw materials for hillbilly brewing! I can't wait to hear about those brews. I've been pondering a hard lemonade (say what you will about it being a chick drink ) accented with tinctures of homegrown lemongrass, lemon balm, lemon verbena, Tagetes lemonii, etc.. I think any or all of these herbs could really add character/depth to to a lemonade. Add some crystal malt and some citrus blossom honey and blammo! Good lovin'. But I digress...Thanks everyone and MORG, I hope I'm able to take you up on that offer in the not too distant future More updates to come...

FM

[Monk]

Bottled this one last night. It smells exactly like cotton candy(?!), but fortunately doesn't taste like it. It's pretty damn good with just enough alkaloidal bite to balance the extreme floral/fruity smells and tastes. After having a couple of beers during the sanitation/bottling process, I had about 8 oz of this. The effects were pleasant and my buzz increased quite sharply and I became much more relaxed than I had been. It can't wait til they're bottle conditioned.

FM