Incidence of 'mental disorders'

[wandjina]

Heya folks

In the next month or so, even if i don't start my research next year, I have to narrow down the area I will be studying. Thought I'd start with a quick poll and get an idea of what's 'out there'.

I'm curious to see what the incidence of 'mental disorders' may be in the community.

More, if anyone you know has suffered from any of these conditions, have they ever used psychedelics to address them? If so, in what way? I.e. to escape, to alleviate symptoms, to address underlying causes? What was the result?

All comment welcome and appreciated.

Please excuse terminology.

Edit...I just noticed you can only choose one option in the pole...pls select the most represenative

[Amulte]

um.. i cant choose more than one?

[wandjina]

um.. i cant choose more than one?

sorry! I assumed multiple selections were a given, but i was wrong, I guess I mssed something...and I can't figure out how to edit poll. Can anyone advise here?

[mescalito]

Can't help you with editing polls on this software but you might want to add panic-disorder too.

[Torsten]

Not sure, but it looks like multiples are not allowed. kinda stupid.....

[Evil Genius]

I can´t decide which one i should choose...

[wandjina]

you might want to add panic-disorder too.

yeah, but have had to employ a summary classification of necessity. IMO current diagnostic criteria are inadequate, but the four categories I've listed represent what are considred the four main classes of mental illness. panic disorder would fall under anxiety.

so how about some input re self-medication folks?

Here's the scenario:

I'm a straight-laced 'normal' conducting research into regular users of psychedelics.

Although I intend to approach the project objectively, I have presuppositions nonetheless, I.e. that psychedelics are potentially dangerous illicit drugs. I am also assuming that the reason(s) people use this particular class of drugs will be similar to the reasons why people use other kinds of drugs, including heroin and cannabis, and I will also be expecting to find adverse consequences of drug use...social, psychological and 'biological'.

This is the approach alot of 'legitimate' drug research takes.

So if the 'me' characterised above asked you why you use psychedelics, or why a friend of a friend uses them, what would you say? More specifically, if you (or a friend of a friend) have ever, or currently, suffer from mental illness, how do psychdelics fit in? 'Self-medication'? If so, what are the consequences?

In your opinion, what do psychedelics do? Why do some people continue to take them regularly when the majority of users stop in their early 20s? Is there anything distinctive/unique about long-term users of psychedelics?

Can you see where I'm going here? I need some material to work with guys...

I know these questions seem simple and obvious, and we've all probably argued many of the points I've raised here many, many times...but pretend I know nothing. Educate me. Show me that these substances are more than 'drugs'.

I need empirical evidence of the 'community's' opinion.....pretty please? Cheers folks

[ramon]

Show me that these substances are more than 'drugs'.

I would think that the long history of mankind's association between these substances and the divine. Would help greatly to do this.

[Rev]

its funny but i dont want to tick any of those

i dont think any of those things above happen to me and yet i cant say they dont

rather i think in the right happy healthy situation i am very balanced and normal

when i am in a poor situation those things can happen - but i would hesitate to call that MY problem!

i would argue there uis still nothing wrong with me but rather i am responding in a proper way to the situation at hand

when i was a teenager i was at my worst mnetal health state but looking back i think i was actually healthy!! i was Deeply affected by the injustice and lies and hypocrisies of the world because i was young and purely naive.

in the unreality of our contrived society is schizophrenia unjustifiued

in the overstimulated envoironmnet we inhabit are not manic episodes encouraged

if you are under threat is not paranoia a valid attitude?

If your life is dictated by others and your needs are not met then is depression unusual?

thus when i feel shit i would never medicate myself because that proportins blame to me for being healthily disturbed

better to fuck off the root cause and get back to a healthy living situation

To me the analogy is exactly like taking painkillers to dull the pain while some bastard continues to hit you with a cricket bat

[wandjina]

I would think that the long history of mankind's association between these substances and the divine. Would help greatly to do this.

what about womenkind? I personally prefer the terms humankind or humanity

re millenia of use, yeah, you'd think that would be persuasive, not in all cases. However, long standing use by a respected contemporary Brasilian 'religion' seems to be acceptable 'evidence' in some conventional circles. I suppose i'm after more personal reasons for use, which the aforementioned might be i suppose.

thus when i feel shit i would never medicate myself because that proportins blame to me for being healthily disturbed

better to fuck off the root cause and get back to a healthy living situation

To me the analogy is exactly like taking painkillers to dull the pain while some bastard continues to hit you with a cricket bat

doesn't it depend on what one takes 'self-medication' to mean? If it's sedation, or some other generalised numbing of symtoms, then yeah i get the cricket bat analogy. But what if the 'medicine' is taken not to address symptoms, but to heal/resolve underlying causes?

I'm kinda angling for 'unexpected' answers to the 'usual' questions asked in orthodox drug-use research...

for example: anticipating the kind of 'self-medication' associated with heroin (and associated social/psychological problems), but 'finding' something else.

Lets face it, I'm positively biased, and have expectations of my own, but I can't be seen to be approaching this as if i'm trying to prove what i already believe to be true...that prudent use of psychedelics is beneficial.

I don't think i'm gonna get the kinda 'data' I'm after here, but if people could still do the poll I'd appreciate it.

[Rev]

d'oh

theres my bias

like some dont see alcohol as a drug i overlooked psychedelics as drugs

i was just referring to masking pharmaceuticals

[spiders]

when i drink I like to pick on people = perhaps kill them - this is apartently normal for someone of scottish extraction so Im lucky Im sane

Nah really i dont think I have a problem - yet...

I wonder why there are so many posts on sites regarding psychotropic drug use where these issues are raised - maybe psychotropic drug use bring out more than latent problems? Gees I hope not, but when I watched Batman Begins I got major bad-mushroom repeats in my mind...

Edited October 29, 2005 by bluemeanie

[spiders]

hey by the way I know a guy who was married to a bird who had a personality disorder - she used to bring guys home from the supermarket and make him watch while she fucked them - and then not even remember the episode.

Apparently Psych. nurses loath personality disorders above everything else - they are the most fucked up of all aparently - ouch...

[mescalito]

I totally agree with Rev in so far as I suffer certain things at certain times but these can always be alleviated with the right lifestyle/surroundings or whatever.Unfortunately "the right ilfestyle" happens to be out of my reach atm and therefore I suffer some of these illnesses frequently but i wouldn't say they sum me up as an illness-sufferer per se.

But for the sake of the research I'll add my 2c to the poll

[faustus]

pretend I know nothing. Educate me. Show me that these substances are more than 'drugs'.

no matter how sacred psychedelics are to the people on this forum, if you did research into the wider community, i think your original hypothesis "that psychedelic drugs are dangerous" would be supported.

this is unfortunate. but for every user on this forum that feels they've derived some benefit from psychedelics, i'd be willing to wager that there's another 20 in the wider community that's either not gained anything, had a bad experience, done bad things under their influence, or just completely fucked up.

given that you hope to find people that have taken psychedelics and derived positive benefits, for instance, helped them with their mental illness, what sort of objective measures do you hope to use to determine that this is the case? if you use the DSM criteria, then you get into trouble, given that 'hallucinogen abuse' is one diagnosis that would have close to a 100% prevalence rate on SAB

in terms of why users quit, check out this survey on LSD: http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs/Tryptamines/L...users_quit.html

bluemeanie: personality disorders such as borderline personality disorder are hated by the psychiatric community because the patients have a tendency of playing mind games with the therapist and try to trap them in their spiderweb. for instance it's recommend 2 therapists treat those with BPD just so the therapists can keep an eye on one other. patients might call up the therapist at inappropriate times with a "crisis" just to get attention, or when there's 5 minutes to go, bring up how they were sexually abused so they can go overtime with more therapy.

[wandjina]

but for every user on this forum that feels they've derived some benefit from psychedelics, i'd be willing to wager that there's another 20 in the wider community that's either not gained anything, had a bad experience, done bad things under their influence, or just completely fucked up.

perhaps, but I'm not interested in every user, but regular users.

When heroin is studied, research usually focuses on regular users (i.e. addicts), as opposed to recreational users. Every user is not counted/represented.

More, the consequences of regular vs. 'recreational' use differ, as do the 'kind' of person engaged in the behaviours respectively. Ditto alcoholics vs. those who have a few glasses of wine on the weekend.

I do not mean to equate regular use of psychedelics with addiction, just to pint out there are different 'communities' of users one may study, as opposed to every person who has ever popped a trip or eaten brug flowers in high school.

if you use the DSM criteria, then you get into trouble

Not necessarily

I do not know at this point how exactly I will conduct my research, which methodology I'll use, theory, diagnostic criteria etc, but I do know the DSM (DSM IV?) is not the only model available. I've been reading some epidemiological literature focusing on comorbidity of mental disorders and substance use disorders, and there are a number of approaches currently applied.

Re 'objectivity'...even the most rigorous methodological reform cannot eliminate bias, even the 'gold standard' of empirical evidence: randomly controlled clinical trials (RCTs).

As far as I'm concerned RCTs and the DSM are tools...even when investigators all 'follow' the rules for utilising them, conflicting results/interpretations may, and do, occur. what ends up being counted as 'true' is sometimes determined by socio-cultural and political forces.

IMO science is plastic, and can accomodate even the most 'extraordinary' knowledge/opinion if the content is presented in an acceptable 'format'. Being perceived as adhering to extant norms is key to being taken seriously, and something i am profoundly aware of (hist. and phil. of science major )

When it comes to the crunch, i can come across as 'objective' as the next guy.

personality disorders such as borderline personality disorder are hated by the psychiatric community because the patients have a tendency of playing mind games with the therapist

I have read, and been told, that many psychiatrists find narcissists the most difficult to work with. Mostly because therapists find their personalites repulsive...arrogant, patronising, malicious etc etc. Secondly, NPD is often considered an intractable condition unamenable to traditional treatment modalities. (That is if one subscribes to the notion of personality disorders in the first place.) Borderlines, by contrast, are considered by some psychiatrists as interesting and rewarding to treat, for a variety of reasons. I do not agree that the psychiatric community 'hates' working with people sufferring from personality disorders....in addition to affective disorders (depression), that's their bread and butter!

[mescalito]

So are you assuming we are all regular users and not recreational?

What about those who are here for interests sake/collectors or maybe actually use these plants semi-regularly specifically for ailments or insight?

If the poll software would allow multiple choices I'm sure you could get an even more refined poll to help in your research by adding many more questions regarding the motives behind usage of psychotropic substances for example.

[psycho0]

its a shame u cant pik more than 1

does hearing voices in ur head , only bout 4-5 times in my life count as schizophrenic whatever?

[wandjina]

So are you assuming we are all regular users and not recreational?

What about those who are here for interests sake/collectors or maybe actually use these plants semi-regularly specifically for ailments or insight?

good points mesc.

re the first, well, yes, i am making some assumptions, but the difficulty is in determining what defines 'regular' vs. 'recreational' use. I guess i'll need to do some actual quantitative and qualitative research to establish my criteria. But I'd still argue there's a difference between those with a 'special interest', regardless of frequency of use, and those who experiment in their teens, or whatever, then leave it behind.

re the second point, this is who/what I'm really interested in, and something I'm grappling with at the moment. If I approach my study from an epidemiological/'medical' perspective, some 'sociological' aspects will be minimised, so I'm thinking I may try to do the PhD with two schools so i can really get my teeth into the 'less sciency' bits. But I havn't even handed my hons thesis in yet (just finishing conclusion...submit on Friday!!!), nor is an APA scholarship guarenteed (without that I won't be able to study next year). So evrything is very much up in the air. I've made no decisions as yet, just throwing ideas around. My topic may end up being very different from anything I've written here.

However, it is your last point re 'semi-regular use for ailments/insight' that is of particular interest to me, just not sure how best to tackle it.

If, for the sake of argument, I take the results of the poll as representative, I could surmise that psychedelics are being used 'regularly' by some people to treat affective disorders. who knows? I guess there's only one way to find out.

Keep the input coming guys, I know I can be defensive (workin on that ) , but Im finding the criticism very helpful...keep it comin!

[Darklight]

[(just finishing conclusion...submit on Friday!!!),

Best of luck with it Wandjina, I'm sure it will be well received.

I don't know if this is a relevant point for your study or not, but speaking personally as having suffered from previous depression and at least one other of the conditions on your poll, I was wondering whether you were going to draw a correlation between the illnesses outlined and drug use?

Certainly I've worked my way through them, but drugs were definitely not a causal factor. In one case when I was using waaaay too many drugs and going under I stopped the drug use so I could sort out my stuff, because rather than masking or self medicating problems, they were a possible factor stopping me from thinking clearly, which is to me linearly to a large extent.

And yes I've certainly found that occasional use has been of benefit when going through the filing cabinet of what is laughingly referred to as my mind.

What I've found is that free and clear discussion and research into the wholistic notion of drugs such as takes place here- that includes social interaction, scientific research and other surrounding issues as opposed to simple consumption- has markedly reduced my drug intake. I like drugs, I like a lot of things about them and around them, and even those I don't like fascinate me as a phenomenon, and in an effort to understand them better I prefer these days to keep my mind available so that I can assimilate information and undertake practical projects

Mind you I can't party as hard as I used to and recovery seems to take longer than the uptime That's just me getting older and busier.

If I was approached to explain my position to your straight laced normal researcher, I think it would be that their notion of 'drugs' is skewed and doesn't allow them to encompass a much wider set of issues, that their negative set of values needs to be taken into account when framing their questions and at least be admitted to, and that I wouldn't be much comfortable answering questions which could not incorporate a wider scope into the study view

But then again, if you're going for funding, is a broader view even possible?

Edited October 31, 2005 by Darklight

[wandjina]

Best of luck with it Wandjina, I'm sure it will be well received.

thanks DL

I was wondering whether you were going to draw a correlation between the illnesses outlined and drug use?

Certainly I've worked my way through them, but drugs were definitely not a causal factor.

yes, this is something i want to look at, and rings true in my own experience. With the possible exception of mj, had to say goodbye unfortunately: she may not have been the cause , but certainly exacerbated pre-existing symptoms.

their notion of 'drugs' is skewed and doesn't allow them to encompass a much wider set of issues, that their negative set of values needs to be taken into account when framing their questions and at least be admitted to, and that I wouldn't be much comfortable answering questions which could not incorporate a wider scope into the study view

But then again, if you're going for funding, is a broader view even possible?

so true. and yes, I intend to incorporate a wider view...somehow. I must admit I havn't exactly been forthright in my applications for postgrad and the APA but then no one ends up studying exactly what they set out to.