One teensy step for mankind, one slightly larger step for me

[inpsyght]

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Edited November 23, 2010 by inpsyght

[apothecary]

This thread has made me think about some things, and I'd like to share them.

Some of you have probably seen some posts by me mentioning ganja sometimes has a really powerful (occasionally hallucinogenic) effect on me.

What comes with this powerful effect is a dry little voice inside my head that has no issues pointing out what I'm doing wrong in my life, what I'm doing right, and that maybe I'm smoking too mch ganja. Sometimes it says other things, like reminding me about some cool thing that happened or reminds me of a friend I haven't seen in a while, but mostly the three things I mentioned.

So it always seems that the more I smoke, the less I want to smoke, and I taper off, if that makes sense. For example, for a while of this year I was smoking a fair bit, feeling pretty good, but the voice in my head would always show me the sunshine, show me the love of the universe and I'd end up slowing my intake for at least a week or two.

I don't know if I'm the only one who gets such an effect, but generally it seems my brain knows when to lay off for a while.

The one thing that this voice has imparted to me that I hold most dear is the beauty of life, the importance of being a good person, and that being depressed is going to get me nowhere.

This may sound like more than "one thing" but to me it's just one thing, and a very important one at that.

[gomaos]

So it always seems that the more I smoke, the less I want to smoke, and I taper off, if that makes sense. For example, for a while of this year I was smoking a fair bit, feeling pretty good, but the voice in my head would always show me the sunshine, show me the love of the universe and I'd end up slowing my intake for at least a week or two.

I don't know if I'm the only one who gets such an effect, but generally it seems my brain knows when to lay off for a while.

The one thing that this voice has imparted to me that I hold most dear is the beauty of life, the importance of being a good person, and that being depressed is going to get me nowhere.

I wouldn't worry abou that little voice to much.

In time, when you get a bit older, that voice will shut up (finally!) and you can smoke all you want.

Until your lungs fall out...

[gomaos]

Our parents grew up and lived in a black and white world. gender,sex, race, religion, history, drugs, morality, transpersonal relations.

a few revolutionaries broke down some barriers but the makority still see and resist or unable to alter their core tendency to see things in black and white.

To them to do something that is illegal is either wrong or seen as a rebellion caused by some psychological problem - they might lable it a 'cry for help' or 'escapism'

"its my choice" doesnt compute

sounds like something I may have written 35 years ago.

and someone else will write the same thing in 35 years, for sure.

it seems the majority of people, "the mainstream', will never change.

They will keep voting for Bush and Howard or their equivalentsd in 35 years.

Sad, but true.

the only changes in society, if they happen at all, take a very long time.

For example, that after all this time, Cannabis is still illegal, is hard to believe andf is only so because those in power are morons.

And they always will be morons.

Because the majority of society are morons, and they vote for someone like themselves, of course.

Yeah and why the hell is mdma illegal?

It gives you the stimulation of the same part of the brain as acid does (which is very nice) without having to be scared of confusing hallucinations and uncontrolled actions which MAY happen on acid.

I'm not saying acid is bad, it just requires more inner personal strenght, which some people may not have.

With MDMA however there is no need to be scared...

it's only illegal because our lives, our countries, our everythinmg is run by morons who get elected by morons.

Such is the sad truth.

nothing to do with generations I'm afraid... although I wish it did...

[inpsyght]

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Edited February 7, 2012 by inpsyght

[Rev]

 

quote:

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but...

 

have their uninformed choices actually stopped you from indulging in your life the way you like?

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yes they have

in regards to international travel and freedom of speech and right to association with many organisations

They are also undermining our social structure through industrial reforms, Free trade agreemnets, changes to welfare and introduction of taxation (GST- loss of 10% of purchasing power)

and of course there is the matter of scheduling of BZP, TFMPP, kratom and salvia and others in the recent past

but this really belongs in another thread

[ 14. August 2005, 10:45: Message edited by: Rev ]

[Hagakure]

inpsyght - never delete something cause someone might disagree with it.

technology like the internet allows people to form an opinion then only read stuff that helps them keep that opinion.

its a dangerous spiral - always look at other side and keep a questioning mind.

i think on the topic of drugs it is pretty clear that a lot of problems stem from its illegalisation. various criminal and health issues could be remedied a lot more efficiently with a more enlightened policy. i wont go into details here.

i think you could say that people are moronic on the issue of drugs - the level of misinformation and bullshit the average person will regurgitate when questioned about drugs is worrying.

but this can be fixed though education.

[inpsyght]

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Edited February 7, 2012 by inpsyght

[Hagakure]

i like your ideas there man.

im trying to convince as many people as possible but its a slow process.

need some mass media infiltration

[inpsyght]

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Edited November 23, 2010 by inpsyght

[onz]

Originaly posted by T:

 

quote:

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That said, it does worry me though that I have not met a single late 30's adult who has been a regular pot smoker and does not have some pretty severe (and definitely somewhat disabling) mental problem. I would feel a lot better about regular cannabis use if there was more evidence that people are still balanced after 20 years of it. The lack thereof should make people think about the quantity and frequency of their use.

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Very, very surprised at this. My dads been smoking for 25+ years, only short term negtv effects noticed if smoking during or before work instead of after.. I now of MANY invdividuals who don't smoke or do drugs who have some pretty servere mental problem, or are ultimately depressed. When I was young and first began chronicly smoking I once started to believe it was helping me cope with my depression (that was when mother became aware'nd I didnt care). that lasted bout 2-3 months. Eventually that would collapse into shit wen I was dry, otherwise it would manifest into hard anxiety.though i had dep and anxiety b4 smoking. The point is, and as apoc shows us, it is under the user's entire control, direct or indirect.

Arguing about weed is a battle I hardly ever enter in anymore, just the same stuff ovr'nd ovr.

I will always argue for mary, but the time I had (volitionly) quit weed I felt more inclined to debate for weed than when i'm smoken.

Originaly posted by Rev:

 

quote:

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why else afer all this time is MDMA illegal????

 

it does far less physical harm than all the old guard of drugs, does not lead to non-functionality in society or antisocial tendencies, is not addictive, does not lead to unwanted pregnancies and so many other points

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I disagree. LONG term affects; gives the heart, liver, and kidneys a run for thier money. Certainly gives serotonin depletion and anxiety in most users.. I agree its not (physicaly) addictive. Unwanted pregnancies for sure.

We don't need a new better leader(although that would be nice), we need no leader. Depoliticize the world!

I've order some zonk, so hopefuly I'll be quiting soon

.... excuse me, (Inhale`)

[apothecary]

After a while I didn't try hiding my love of plants, ganja, etc from my workplace, and it hasn't been detrimental at all.

My boss brought back a "Hash Mill" souvenir from Holland, and his boss doesn't really seem to mind at all! One time he said "you smoke too much" but he didn't seem to mean it or really care, possibly his European background (I won't name the country) puts the stuff in a more tolerable light in his eyes.

The other guys at work always say "I'm glad theres someone I can ask about drugs and plants etc", I often field questions about random things from coworkers like how opium is produced, what ayahuasca is, endorphins, etc.

I'm just as glad to answer as they are to ask, and I try my best to give an unbiased, informed answer

[Torsten]

Originally posted by onz:

I now of MANY invdividuals who don't smoke or do drugs who have some pretty servere mental problem, or are ultimately depressed.

Oh yes, I know. I was just relaying my own observations, which may well be skewed due to my location and my circle of aquaintances.

And I did not say that all non-smokers are sane. Obviously there is a lot of depressiona and anxiety in the general population too, but I just noticed a worrying concentration thereof in the older pot smokers.

When I was young and first began chronicly smoking I once started to believe it was helping me cope with my depression

That's because it momentarily fixes the problem, but then leaves you depleted in the long run.

This is why anxiety and depression escalate so quickly (after onset) with pot smokers.

MDMA - LONG term affects; gives the heart, liver, and kidneys a run for thier money.

Any references for this. You be hard pressed to find individuals who have consumed more mdma than me and none of these organs have been affected according to my doc.

Certainly gives serotonin depletion and anxiety in most users..

I agree this is a major problem, but I can't say that "most users" would be appropriate. Most of my rave buddies do not have anxiety issues or ended up on prozac. In fact, only one did.

Unwanted pregnancies for sure.

Man, where do you get this stuff? If there is one thing MDMA is well known for then it is that it does not increase the risk of pregnancies. There is even a study done on this issue.

[inpsyght]

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Edited February 7, 2012 by inpsyght

[onz]

Originally posted by T:

 

quote:

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That's because it momentarily fixes the problem, but then leaves you depleted in the long run.

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As does every quik fix solution to lifes problems. "Anti-depressants" are the absolute worste way to cure/help depression. They further negate the minds capacity to solve the problems which lead to the depression.

 

quote:

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This is why anxiety and depression escalate so quickly (after onset) with pot smokers.

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Sure, if you already have anxiety and/or depression and start smoking, 9 times out of ten u'll find yourself with more problems than when u started. But nearly everyone I know/knew who didn't have anxiety b4 they started smoking didn't have it develop afterwards. Its wierd how MJ is meant to be relaxing but has that paranoia edge to it.

 

quote:

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Any references for this. You be hard pressed to find individuals who have consumed more mdma than me and none of these organs have been affected according to my doc.

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http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_faq3.shtml and http://www.urban75.com/Drugs/drugxtc.html

 

quote:

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Man, where do you get this stuff? If there is one thing MDMA is well known for then it is that it does not increase the risk of pregnancies. There is even a study done on this issue.

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Are you refering to the temporary impotency issue? One finds it easy to have sex, but harder to cum.

[Hagakure]

been thinking a lot about cheebs nowdays.

think its time i put it away for a while.

i have a great time on it but thats partially the problem. when you can have a better time at home making some beats than going out you can become rather antisocial.

now i dig it and think it should be legal but i am going to cut my use down to once a month i think.

[ 15. August 2005, 13:39: Message edited by: Hagakure ]

[Rev]

 

quote:

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but I just noticed a worrying concentration thereof in the older pot smokers.

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I was discussing craziness with my partner last night and we came to the conclusion we do not know a SINGLE one of our own or friends mothers who is not neurotic.

In fact i find it hard to find many people at all without neurotic tendencies. most appear normal on the surface but tilt their comfort zone and 'issues' spill out

there exist the possibility that pot smokers are self medicating having unconsciously selected themselves for treatment

 

quote:

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You be hard pressed to find individuals who have consumed more mdma than me

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showoff

 

quote:

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like in the neurotoxicity issue, where mda (i think) was "accidently" used instead.

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i believe it was methamphetamine actually

 

quote:

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i'd love to see a study on teh original theraputic users of mdma and how their brains are at now.Are you refering to the temporary impotency issue?

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if theyd consent to vivisection

the studies i saw at uni during our neurobiology lectures was that the famous study used several primate species and rats and gave them fairly large doses of 'MDMA" (which as we know now wasnt)

vivisection showed that there was significant damage to the neurons and that in the primates it didnt grow back, However.. in the rats it DID

so the whole thing was debunked anyway cos the y used the wrong drug. however it leaves many questions open even if the drug was the right one.

1. can animals be reliably used to do this study?

2. What are our brains more like? rats or primates? - Human brains are unique in other ways so no assumption can be safely made. Because our brain is such a large organ our metabolism has evolved to support it in ways that many other animals cant.

"In 1967, circulating ketones were discovered to replace glucose as the brain's major fuel during the marked hyperketonemia of prolonged fasting. Until then, the adult human brain was thought to be entirely dependent upon glucose."

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ilsi...000010/art00001

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/HTSFDS.php

3. How does the dosage relate to actual amounts ingested by humans

[ 15. August 2005, 09:12: Message edited by: Rev ]

[apothecary]

lol, tonight mother suggested I might need to go to rehab.

[gomaos]

sorry gomaos, but demonising the masses for not being able to escape from the prison that was built around them doesn't sit with me.

I didn't say they were demons, I said morons...

and I don't believe that this "poor little" majority of all people in oz are all sooo innocent...

most of them have chosen to do as they are told because it is so much more comfortable and practical...

or so they believe...

but if "morons" is very offensive, I'll think of another word to replace that one...

that could take all night but...

[gomaos]

That said, it does worry me though that I have not met a single late 30's adult who has been a regular pot smoker and does not have some pretty severe (and definitely somewhat disabling) mental problem

hey do you mean me?

ok I'm not late 30s rather early 50s so i must be much worse?

if i have a mental problem (if that's how you see it)

I've always had that, made school hell for me etc.

nothing to do with pot but

[gomaos]

lol, tonight mother suggested I might need to go to rehab.

--------------------

lol indeed...

what they're going to do to you in rehab?

give you methadone against cannabis?

makes me think of one example of an extremely ill-informed citizen:

Cartoon character Hank Hill ( a bush-voting faschist)meets a pot smoker, unknowingly(!) shares a joint with him, inhales...

and then when he realized it was cannabis he went to the bathroom stuck his finger down his throat:

"Must induce vomiting..."

what a moron....

[ 15. August 2005, 14:19: Message edited by: gomaos ]

[Torsten]

Originally posted by onz:

As does every quik fix solution to lifes problems. "Anti-depressants" are the absolute worste way to cure/help depression. They further negate the minds capacity to solve the problems which lead to the depression.

Often all that is required for depression to receede is a small window of clarity. A few months of sanity to get life back in order. If antidepressants were prescribed with this in mind then they would be the god sent they are advertised to be. But sadly they are used as long term solutions which all too often fail.

Also, let's not dump all antidepressants into the same basket. I do not see much wrong with extended use of MAO-a inhibitors for example if there really is an imbalance that needs a chemical solution.

Sure, if you already have anxiety and/or depression and start smoking, 9 times out of ten u'll find yourself with more problems than when u started. But nearly everyone I know/knew who didn't have anxiety b4 they started smoking didn't have it develop afterwards. Its wierd how MJ is meant to be relaxing but has that paranoia edge to it.

That the answer to the last sentence actually contradicts the middle one. Sure, people who are depressed and start smoking will quickly become more depressed. But what about the vast number of people who are not depressed, but have slight imbalances (ie a predisposition to depression)? The same depleting action that pot has on depressed people will also throw many predisposed people over the edge - quickly. This is why you see so many people who only just started smoking and then suddenly crash. The problem is that they actually feel better at the time of smoking so they smoke more etc etc.

If you accept that pot has a depleting action then you also have to accept that it will cause problems in all individuals except for the very balanced and resilient.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_faq3.shtml and http://www.urban75.com/Drugs/drugxtc.html

I thought as much. Do you have any idea how many years ago Lamont wrote that? Let's say, it was one of the first documents I found on the internet! Sure, it has been added to over the years, but sadly a lot of the superfluous and downright wrong information has not been removed.

You will also find that the document does not mention the word kidney even once. As far as the heart is concerned, the problem is a matter of the load it puts on it. This does not mean it hurts the heart or causes any sort of damage to it. Just like a healthy game of soccer can put too much load on the heart, so can MDMA. It is regarded as a risk factor, but not as something causing damage.

As far as the liver is mentioned, this only applied to certain individuals who have enzymatic anomalies. These individuals should already be aware of the problem as it affects many drugs, including pharmaceuticals.

The other link does not prvide any back up info on it's statement about the strain MDMA caused to heart, liver and kidneys. The strain on the heart is quite obvious, but as mentioned above, there is a big difference between strain and damage. The liver damage is probably a misunderstanding by the author, and the kidney issues are extrapolated from the amount of urine that is passed. I'd like to see something a little more credible about whether this is damaging or not before taking it as gospel.

Are you refering to the temporary impotency issue? One finds it easy to have sex, but harder to cum.

MDMA was once protrayed as a drug that causes youngster to have more sex and more risky sex. These studies found that MDMA slightly decreased the incidence of sex compared to sober people and

decreased it dramatically when compared to people drinking alcohol. It also found that the risk taking behaviour of straight couples was insignificantly elevated, but that the risk taking behaviour of gays was quite dramatically increased. This was the cause for education campaigns and free condom hand-outs at gay events all over the world. Several european governments formulated policy around these findings and also confirmed the research in their own studies.

Having sex on MDMA is easy enough for most, but many simply chose not to. And yes, it is quite difficult (yet not impossible) to cause a pregnancy without ejaculation.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by gomaos:

hey do you mean me?

The point of what I said was quite clearly that it applies to ALL over 30's pot smoker I know.

ok I'm not late 30s rather early 50s so i must be much worse?

Quite the contrary. There are changes in the brain in the late 40's that seem to balance many things like depression, paranoia, anxiety etc. Don't understand what it is, but many menopausal people are very relieved when it happens.

if i have a mental problem (if that's how you see it) I've always had that, made school hell for me etc. nothing to do with pot but

Any problem with the brain is a mental problem. I use the term with no stigma. About 20% of the population has a DIAGNOSED mental problem. Considering the majority of people I know who have depression, anxiety or some other mental problem are not actually diagnosed or are no longer in treatment, I would presume the number of mental health cases to be well above the 20%.

But your example is quite significant in that it highlights the problem of distingusihing between those who smoke because they have a mental problem or those who have a mental problem because they smoke. On top of that we have the confusing situation about those who do not have a diagnosed mental problem, but who might be drawn to pot because of the latent problem and who then precipitate it.

btw, just so you know, I have a mental problem too. I know the term scares people and is often used with stigma attached, but I hate beating around the bush and simply call the kettle black.

[ 15. August 2005, 15:31: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[Torsten]

Originally posted by Rev:

I was discussing craziness with my partner last night and we came to the conclusion we do not know a SINGLE one of our own or friends mothers who is not neurotic.

Interesting you say this, because this is how my realisation of what I said actually started. Realising how nuts my mum is and how all her friends are delusional, depressed or suffer from anxiety, I was examining my own circle of friends and friends parents to discover most of them weren't any better off. Then I realised there was a steep gradient of more sane people amongst the non-pot-smokers. But who know - maybe they are just better at hiding their valium/prozac addiction because they are embarrassed about it. After all, when I chat to straight people about their prozac use they still whisper and don't want to share their experiences because of the stigma attached and the orry the neighbour might find out. In the alternative community people are much more open about the fact they can't cope without their happy pills.

there exist the possibility that pot smokers are self medicating having unconsciously selected themselves for treatment

My thoughts exactly.

showoff

Hey, I gotta be experienced at something Because I change my profession and lifestyle every few years, I realised that taking ecstacy for 14 years was the most consistent thing I've done in my life

But even that came to an end a few years ago. My parents were right - I just can't stick with anything.... :D

[gomaos]

But your example is quite significant in that it highlights the problem of distingusihing between those who smoke because they have a mental problem or those who have a mental problem because they smoke

so where would you class me?

also since you call the kettle black, what mental problem would I have?

I was actually referring to my (over-)eating disorder...

(hope you don't mind me asking, nothing wrong with playing a little sigmund freud or wilhelm reich (to hell with the fbi and cia![who tortured reich!])

[ 16. August 2005, 02:02: Message edited by: gomaos ]