Syriab Rue/Ayahuasca & MAOI: Are the Dangers Real

[Ishmael Fleishman]

I have been reading up on Syriab Rue and MAOI.

 

The history of MAOI's in medicine is interesting and their use an an effective anti-depressant in the 1950's/60's caught my attention.

 

However their is such a strong message that are dangerous with the risk of having a hypertensive crisis make their use unattractive.

 

Now with MAOI's the general advise is to avoid Tyramine rich foods.

 

However -

video argues that Tyramine is not a real concern.

 

Because Tiramine is a product of Putrefaction of foods - this is why cheese, cured meats, wine, beer, and sauerkraut, contain Tyramine have been recommended to be avoided.

 

However it is argued that this is no longer a major concern because modern food production limits the production of Tyramine.

 

As for the dangerous  - 14 deaths in 1.5 million were recorded from patient using MAOI's in the 1960's This is 0.00093333333333333% of patients.

 

When normal portions of Tyramine rich foods are eaten they should not pose any risk of hypertensive crisis.

 

Now I think about ayahuasca and the Dieta. In a hot and humid environment of the Amazon. Putrefaction of food is a real problem and the production of Tyramine could be a problem. This makes sense as to why the dieta for ayahuasca avoids specific foods.

 

My question is are we the victim of an old wives tails around the dangers of MAOI's or worse an orchestrated scare campaign?

 

Do you know anyone directly who had a negative effect from the administration of an MAOI's in any of its forms and what was the outcome?

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Ishmael Fleishman

[Trip]

You should read up on the difference between pharmaceutical MAOIs and harmala which is a RIMA. 

 

The dangers are not the same. Having said that harmala will still have potential dangers when mixing stimulants/ amphetamine etc.

[withdrawl clinic]

9 hours ago, Ishmael Fleishman said:

 

 

Do you know anyone directly who had a negative effect from the administration of an MAOI's in any of its forms and what was the outcome?

 

yes!

[Strontium Dawg]

I was on some antidepressants in the 90s, didn't realize at the time that they were MAOI class, not SSRIs. I drank some ephedra tea and that sent me into 12 hours of the most intense migraine like headaches and nausea. And I imagine my trial was mild compared to what could have happened. At no point did the prescribing doctor tell me the medication was an MAOI or to watch my diet etc. I was well aware of MAOI interactions at this time, I just didn't make the connection with what happened to me until years later.

[Ishmael Fleishman]

6 hours ago, Trip said:

harmala which is a RIMA.  

 

So it looks like harmala is a MAO-A inhibitor.

 

I am not a chemist so my grasp on these things is crude.

 

Harmala is an MAO-A is a monoamine oxidase enzyme Inhibitor only. Not a MAO-B.

 

Beyond this I do not understand much.

 

So the Dr. claims are semi -true in part because modern pharmaceutical MAOI's are more targeted not only because less Tyramine in our foods.

 

I started to dig on drug interactions and this the list I came up with:

• Beta-blockers > I have taken them in the past to reduce he
• ephedra > cold & flu tablets > diet pills > Ephedrine
• stimulants > I do not like stimulants and have even cut out tea and coffee
• amphetamines > this includes the Mescaline (3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine) & San Pedro
• pharmaceutical MAOIs
• rasagiline for Parkinson disease;
• Amifampridine for muscle disease
• Anticholinergic drugs
• Corticosteroids > this would be a concern because GP's inject like they are handing out candy > GP suggested an injection to me today.

• SSRIs

• Serotonin-Norepinephrine Reuptake Inhibitors (SNRIs)

• Triptans > migraine or cluster headaches

• Tricyclic Antidepressants

• BuSpar (buspirone)

• Eskalith (lithium)

• Desyrel (trazodone)

• Analgesics like Codeine, Fentanyl, Tramadol > I was in hospital two months ago for surgery and got Fentanyl & panadeine forte

• Antibiotic/Antiretroviral Drugs like Zyvox (linezolid) & Norvir (ritonavir)

• Dietary Supplements like St. John’s Wort & Ginseng

• Other Drugs That Affect Serotonin - Amphetamines - Cocaine and LSD and Mescaline

https://www.drugs.com/npp/syrian-rue.html

https://www.verywellmind.com/medications-and-serotonin-syndrome-2584342

 

Quote

MAOIs have highly dangerous and sometimes fatal interactions with many common drugs. They can cause serotonin syndrome or hypertensive crisis when combined with almost any antidepressant, stimulant, common migraine medication, certain herbs, most cold medicine (including decongestants, antihistamines, and cough syrup), nicotine, caffeine, etc. Sedatives are likely easier tolerated, but potentiation should be expected.   https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Harmala_alkaloid#Extraction

 

However honestly with a good measure of caution and sense you should easily avoid most of these interactions.

 

Oddly enough my interest in MAOI's are not is its psychotropic effects but rather things like Pancreatic islet cell proliferation. The more I read about harmala the more I would love to get it from my GP.

 

For the moment I am just burning it as incense as a cleanser. The funny thing is that it is not a sweet smell like roses and sandalwood. Its more akin to really good BBQ - tempted to use it in the BBQ smoker. It also reminds me of the smell that a room gets from tobacco smoking. Not the tobacco smell but maybe its the harmala I am smelling. I am also very familiar with this Syrian Rue incense smell. I have encountered it many times up and down Sydney Road in Melbourne. Keeps the evil eye away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Trip]

Both harmine and harmaline are reversible inhibitors of monoamine oxidase A (RIMAs).

The mechanism of action is different to irreversible MAOIs like: Isocarboxazid, Phenelzine or Tranylcypromine. The bonds for reversible inhibitors are more easily broken as they are bonded through  non-covalent mechanisms.  Irreversible MAIOs permanently inhibited and altering the receptor site they target. Which is why pharmaceutical MAOIs have more dangerous interactions, whereas many who have extensive use with harmala will tell you the fears are offstated. Ofcourse mixing harmala with stimulants, certain pharmaceuticals, amphetamines etc isn't a good idea and there are ofcourse other factors such as half lives etc, but generally interactions with harmala are overstated.

 

Now THH found in caapi is a bit different. It is thought to be a SRI with minimal reversible MAO-A activity. But i believe this is still controversial.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Trip

[Ishmael Fleishman]

3 minutes ago, Trip said:

Both harmine and harmaline are reversible inhibitors of monoamine oxidase A (RIMAs).

The mechanism of action is different to irreversible MAOIs like: Isocarboxazid, Phenelzine or Tranylcypromine. The bonds for reversible inhibitors are more easily broken as they are bonded through  non-covalent mechanisms.  Irreversible MAIOs permanently inhibited and altering the receptor site they target. Which is why pharmaceutical MAOIs have more dangerous interactions, whereas many who have extensive use with harmala will tell you the fears are offstated. Ofcourse mixing harmala with stimulants, certain pharmaceuticals, amphetamines etc isn't a good idea and there are ofcourse other factors such as half times etc, but generally food interactions etc with harmala are overstated. 

 

Thank you so much for the explanation -

 

There is surprisingly little information on effects and use of straight harmaline.

[Trip]

Nexus might be worth checking out.

[Ishmael Fleishman]

What are people thoughts about possible interactions between Cocoa and harmala considering that Cocoa is a source of caffeine and Phenethylamine.

 

Also it looks like cocoa is a powerful MAO-B inhibitor.

 

However

 

Quote

MAO inhibitors in cell culture, their rapid metabolism, poor BBB penetration, and relatively low natural abundance make them hundreds to thousands fold less effective than selegiline per milligram in humans.https://bluelight.org/xf/threads/mixing-maoi-with-cacao.660439/

 

 

[Ishmael Fleishman]

2 hours ago, Trip said:

Nexus might be worth checking out.

 

Nexus is interesting and I try to read it at times however its focus on extractions and chemistry is not my thing.  I start reading something and within a sentence I need a dictionary, Wikipedia and duckduckgo.

 

I am more into the culture, history and the spirit of the plant.

 

Also the site is just so visually painful to look at.

[Alchemist]

A friend from Alaska took harmala seeds and felt that he could not fall asleep any more for a whole year!  Up all night for a year. I guess he must have go some micro naps but he vowed to never ever touch them again.

[Ishmael Fleishman]

11 hours ago, Alchemist said:

A friend from Alaska took harmala seeds and felt that he could not fall asleep any more for a whole year!  Up all night for a year. I guess he must have go some micro naps but he vowed to never ever touch them again.

 

Harmala does have this strange affect. It is not a buzz, or stimulant effect it is not jittery like caffeine. It is not monkey brain chatter or anxiety that stops you from sleeping.

 

It is like your body forgets how to sleep. You know you should be sleeping.

 

This I think this contributes positively to the all night ayahuasca experience, however if you plan to sleep it is not recommended to take it after midday.

 

The Harmala expedience is also a very much an active dream state that you experience while awake.

 

Recommend watching  ESPD55 -

 

There is a growth of interest in Persian use of Syrian Rue - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=+Shauheen+Etminan

 

If you do not listen to the medicine it will haunt and torment you.

 

 

 

Edited January 8 by Ishmael Fleishman