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Ishmael Fleishman

Options For Potent Anti-Anxiety Botanical

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On 9/7/2022 at 4:53 PM, Glaukus said:

I just bought 200g of Vanuatu kava from an online Australian retailer,

 

Fingers crossed...been years since I've had a decent kava session! 

Please let me know I really find good Kava helpful and used to enjoy it in the past. 

And yes the crap from the chemist warehouse is useless.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 9/7/2022 at 12:57 PM, Alchemica said:

simple water/alcohol dual extracts

 

Can you explain this - I have access to food-grade 70%ABV alcohol. I am thinking of doing an extraction of the mix of suggested herbs.

 

Can anyone tell me about hops - I used to homebrew so I am familiar with hops in brewing but never used hops otherwise. 

Edited by Ishmael Fleishman

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I have decided to no longer use cannabis to help with sleep. For the following reasons.

  • As I understand with current laws those caught with THC in their system will be charged even with a medical exemption. This should change in a year or two in Victoria. But I cannot risk losing my licence for 6 months.
  • I have tried edibles and honestly, I'm not too fond of the body load, or couch lock. I am now stuck with a large number of brownies that I might just throw in the bin.
  • I enjoy the act of smoking and the sedating effect but my lungs do not like regular use. I am an ex-tobacco smoker and I hate that burning feeling in my lungs. Vaping might be the way to go in future but I will have to try.

Once legalisation rolls around and options open up I might look at cannabis again.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Ishmael Fleishman said:

 

Can you explain this - I have access food-grade 70%ABV alcohol.

 

Can anyone tell me about hops - I used to brew beer so I am familiar with hops in brewing but never used hops otherwise. I have read that it was used to reduce sex drive.

 

Just a simple extraction using both alcohol and boiling water as two different solvents (ie doing the extraction once with alcohol, then following up repeating with water). Most of the constituents in things like Passiflora and Skullcap seem to be flavonoids so it seems to suit such.

 

Only do it if you like the effect of the particular herb - try it in unextracted form as a higher dose first - just makes dosing more convenient.

 

Hops I used to just eat the hop brewing pellets, either as is or boil them for awhile to isomerise it

 

Here are some of my notes, sorry for the over-detail.

 

Hops increases GABA levels. The typical use for hops is for sleep disturbances and mood disorders, such as anxiety and restlessness. Data from in vivo studies in rats have shown that a hops extract and its fraction containing alpha-bitter acids (humulones) exert significant sedative and antidepressant effects, whilst hops beta-acids (lupulones) appear to also exhibit antidepressant activity with fewer sedative effects, probably by affecting gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) neurotransmission activity. Moreover, in vitro binding experiments have shown that hops interact with certain serotonin (5-HT6) and melatonin (ML1) receptor subtypes, which are involved in various CNS functions related to stress activity, relaxation, circadian rhythms and sleep.

 

Zanoli et al. have investigated the in vivo and in vitro effect of hop beta-acids on central nervous system function and suggested an antidepressant-like activity. Behavioral effects of beta-acids fraction were explained by a modification in the GABAergic activity. That said it contains a highly potent phytoestrogen 8-prenylnaringenin)]. Terpenes likely add to the effect eg myrcenol, which is produced from myrcene during boiling hops

 

Iso-α-acids

 

Iso-α-acids prevented hippocampal inflammation and cognitive impairment and seem particularly effective for the suppression of inflammation-induced depression-like behaviour and appear to do this in part via activation of the vagus nerve, which can in turn improve depression-like behaviour, as a safe and novel approach for treating depression
 
Generally the bitterness induced by effective doses of iso-α-acids precludes their acceptance but they have been shown to a) safely reduce body fat  B) improve cognition in metabolically induced cognitive impairment and c) improve working memory 
 
I used Galaxy 15.7% α-acids
 
"The rate of conversion of α-acids to iso-α-acids was highly dependent on temperature. For typical 100°C boiling conditions, 77% of alpha acids were isomerized within 120 min. Temperatures of 130 °C isomerized 100% of alpha acids within 30 min of heating. A 90 min boil at 100 °C corresponded to a final iso-alpha acid concentration equal to 60% of the starting alpha acid concentration" 
 
The α-acids fraction can be considered as the major responsible constituent for the enhanced GABAergic action and for the antidepressant property
 
The bitter iso-α-acids:
- improve health by influencing lipid metabolism, glucose tolerance, and body weight
- could be effective for improvement of working memory potentially through enhancement of dopamine release
- consumption prevents inflammation in the hippocampus and ameliorates age-related cognitive decline
- can suppress hippocampal inflammation and improve hyper neural activity
- suppress neuronal damage and depression-like behaviour induced by inflammation 
 
Hop β-bitter acids (lupulones) also show antidepressant-like effects. Lupulones are activators of TRPC6, which mediates antidepressant activity

 

The fraction containing β-acids needed a dosage approximately 6 times higher than that of α-acids for sedative effects

Edited by Alchemica

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this is a fantastic thread!:wub:

i want to add, that i have a book, which is about kava, before the pharma companies stuffed this herb up (by not lisening to the pacific islanders, and than when they realised ther mistake, thru the baby out with the bathwater). than stupid ill adviced howard made it illegal....

waka grade kava is very expensive, if you get 1kg for 180aud it's cheap.

i go into more detail what according to my knowledge happend with kava. and it left a stain on kava, where still some health care proffessionals think, kava is bad for the liver and dangerous. the greedy pharma companies bought kava the islanders don't use, i mean above ground parts of the plant, and used this for ther kava boom.

the islander knew, above ground kava is not good to use, but the pharma companies found good ammount of bioactives in thos parts so they were happy.

only years later they conceeded that above ground kava, does contain as well, unwanted active substances. the same happend with pituri by the way....

i like this stroy because it tell us, "traditional use, knows sometimes more than, new studies with sience equipment"!!!

 

so kava is save and good, and this book i mentioned, earlier mentioned that kava was extracted with water and with alcohol, same a alchemica said.

now i don't understand some things as well as alchemica so i ask you to spoon feed me.

subject: withania root.

methode: dry root or use fresh wet root? first simmer/or boil in water, than take leftovers and extract in high proof alcohol. than combine extracts?

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, withdrawl clinic said:

 

subject: withania root.

methode: dry root or use fresh wet root? first simmer/or boil in water, than take leftovers and extract in high proof alcohol. than combine extracts?

 

 

The main actives are normally considered to be withanolides which are steroidal lactones ie more fat soluble so it's likely to primarily be the ethanol that extracts them. 

 

For a very crude extraction:

 

Drying and powdering the root first helps. I'd do alcohol first as that's likely to be the best solvent and maybe the only one needed? Sit the dry, powdered root (weigh it first) in sufficient warm ethanol and leave to extract. As for how much, depends how much you have to spare! Pour off the ethanol filtering through something - I use a hop  brew straining bag to filter it, if you fold it over itself a few times you get a good filter for bulk herbs -saving the filtrate and repeat again, extracting the root material, if possible with a second lot of alcohol. Wash the material in the filter with some alcohol too.  Carefully evaporate it and dry to resin/powder. You could repeat using boiling water to extract (boil it in water, filter, evaporate to leave resin, dehydrate to powder)

 

Filter bag:

See the source image

 

 

 

That said, it seems the best solvent is 50:50 alcohol:water as a single extraction solvent: "The maximum extract yield and the total withanolide and phenolic content were obtained from aqueous alcoholic compositions at 50:50 (v/v), 70:30 (v/v), and 100:0 (v/v), respectively" so maybe a single extraction with 50% ethanol is better than doing two separate extractions!

 

On Ashwagandha, if you're not averse to alcohol, you could also try  an ashwagandharishtha-style preparation [1]. It's a really pleasant way to take the medicine, if you don't mind the interesting flavour.

 

"Emerging evidence suggests the ability of fermentation to enhance the bioactivity and therapeutic potential of traditional medicines. Indeed, the fermentation was shown to increase the availability of the active molecules and to eliminate the undesired compounds."

 

Ashwagandharishtha is a liquid polyherbal formulation traditionally prepared by fermentation process using the flowers of Woodfordia fruticosa. It contains roots of Withania somnifera as a major crude drug. Alcohol generated during the fermentation causes the extraction of water insoluble phytoconstituents. Yeasts present on the flowers are responsible for this fermentation.

 

I simply fermented ashwagandha root etc with added yeast and sugar.

 

No photo description available.

 

 

[1] https://doi.org/10.1016/j.imr.2013.04.002

[2] https://www.ayurmedinfo.com/2011/06/27/ashwagandharishta-uses-ingredients-dose-and-side-effects/

Edited by Alchemica
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7 hours ago, Alchemica said:
"The rate of conversion of α-acids to iso-α-acids was highly dependent on temperature. For typical 100°C boiling conditions, 77% of alpha acids were isomerized within 120 min. Temperatures of 130 °C isomerized 100% of alpha acids within 30 min of heating. A 90 min boil at 100 °C corresponded to a final iso-alpha acid concentration equal to 60% of the starting alpha acid concentration" 
 

 

Stupid question but how do you get water to 130ºc?

 

So you are suggesting cooking the hops in 100ºc water for 120 minutes to isomerize the alpha acids. - Just like you would when boiling wort to make beer.

 

No alcohol required?

What dose do you suggest?

Do you suggest blending it with valerian?

 

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1 hour ago, Ishmael Fleishman said:

 

Stupid question but how do you get water to 130ºc?

 

So you are suggesting cooking the hops in 100ºc water for 120 minutes to isomerize the alpha acids. - Just like you would when boiling wort to make beer.

 

No alcohol required?

What dose do you suggest?

Do you suggest blending it with valerian?

 

Either they had it in a sealed vessel under pressure, or were using a different solvent.

 

I'd personally suggest, if you want to explore, just downing a few high α-acid hop pellets and seeing if it's your thing. I used about 3g dried pellets, not sure the best dose to use but you want to skull them down to avoid tasting them at all personally

 

I was just giving you my notes, I was interested in the iso-α-acids for a bit for their different CNS profile but they are SO BITTER at the required doses you'd have to be really masochistic. The brew was horridly hard to drink! Maybe if you isomerised them, dried it out and capped it up it would be ok

 

No photo description available.

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Personally, I prefer my hops in a solution of fermented maltose...

B)

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2 hours ago, Alchemica said:

you'd have to be really masochistic. 

 

I have eaten a pellet of hops and yes it is bad but might try it again.

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Hey mate, don't throw them in the bin. Bag them up n freeze them. You might find there is the very odd occasion where you need to call on their medicinal powers in a time of great need.

 

My understanding is that if you have a prescription then a judge will usually let you off. Just don't go driving when you're affected.  Give it a couple days and then you're pretty right. That's what most people have told me.

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Posted (edited)

i can't obtain lab grade ethanol, most spirits are ~33% alco so i go for that, i would have tried stroh rum with 80%, but i learned 50/50 seems better.

 

i hope, non chemists are not put off by the sience talk, and those herbs mentioned are all legal to experiment with, and the process is very simple.

i hope many readers get inspired to, do thereB) 1st extraction!!

 

i add one more question, about withania. i have seen it cultivated in cold central europe and it grew in the outdoor fields, to a height of 2m. i never seen the roots of those plants.

i cultivated withania, around byron bay, and at my current location, both times the plant seemed to go into heat dormacy, and my current plants died down over summer and re shooted once it got cold. my qustion to people in vic or tas, 1, how tall does your withania get? 2, does it grow over summer where you live? 3, are there different strains around, which affect height of the withania, or are my plants stunned by the heat?

 

i only bio assayed the root i grew in around byron, and it was a small, struggling plant, but i boiled the root in water, and had good effects.

 

late edit:

i want to add a plant which we havent mentioned yet, a very, very good anxyolitic, Lagochillus inebrians!

Edited by withdrawl clinic

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4 minutes ago, withdrawl clinic said:

 

 

i add one more question, about withania. i have seen it cultivated in cold central europe and it grew in the outdoor fields, to a height of 2m. i never seen the roots of those plants.

i cultivated withania, around byron bay, and at my current location, both times the plant seemed to go into heat dormacy, and my current plants died down over summer and re shooted once it got cold. my qustion to people in vic or tas, 1, how tall does your withania get? 2, does it grow over summer where you live? 3, are there different strains around, which affect height of the withania, or are my plants stunned by the heat?

 

i only bio assayed the root i grew in around byron, and it was a small, struggling plant, but i boiled the root in water, and had good effects.

Not sure if Adelaide is what you're after location wise. I haven't personally noted it dying down except if it got sunburnt then it stunts. I tend to get plants like this:

 

No photo description available.

 

I keep the leaf as it seems useful (but tastes horrible) - I make a glycerite to cover the taste a bit

 

 
The leaves possess higher content of active withanolides, Withaferin-A and Withanone, as compared to the roots [1]. Nootropic and CNS therapeutic properties of the leaf have been claimed [2]. 
 
Withaferin-A is a potent leptin sensitiser with additional antidiabetic actions and resulted in a 20-25% reduction of body weight in overweight mice [3]. It improves insulin sensitivity [4].
 
Anti-neuroinflammatory properties have been ascribed to the leaf [5] along with neuroprotective properties [6]
 
Withaferin-A shows anti-neuroinflammatory [7] anti-Aβ properties [8] and dopamine-restoring [9]  properties. Improvement of cognitive dysfunction has been ascribed to Withanone [10] including inhibition of AChE, anti-Aβ, protection against oxidative stress and anti-inflammatory effects.
 
Many toxicological studies have demonstrated that Ashwagandha, in its reasonable dose, is a non-toxic, safe and edible herb - despite that, there is sometimes movement away from the cytotoxic constituents towards root extracts which may be less effective

 

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Posted (edited)

thx, alchemica!

 

adelaide is much cooler, and your plant looks lusher than mine, your input supports my, idea, this plants go into heat dormacy.

 

i will experiment with the leaves as well now.

i found this link, researching plant used to induce fermentation, i think you might like it, it inspired me to say, whay about withania kefir, or kiwi fruit to start fermentation? one lifetime is never enough...:)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4458060/

the list it gives, Leontopodium as a fermenting help, wau edelweiss, it helps to know latin names...

 

late edit:

only few people grow this plant currently, send me a pm if you want some seeds, but only if you will grow it!

Edited by withdrawl clinic
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On 7/7/2022 at 8:06 PM, Halcyon Daze said:

There are good vapes for dry herb for under $100.

 

Can you recommend a brand/model?

 

 

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On 11/7/2022 at 7:00 PM, Halcyon Daze said:

Hey mate, don't throw them in the bin. Bag them up n freeze them. You might find there is the very odd occasion where you need to call on their medicinal powers in a time of great need.

 

How long will they last - a search says that 6 months max before they go off even in the freezer.

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On 11/7/2022 at 11:53 AM, Alchemica said:

it seems the best solvent is 50:50 alcohol:water as a single extraction solvent:

 

I have some Aqua Vita left over and I had some Nelson Sauvin Hops - I filled up the bottle and will put it away for 6 weeks to see how and if it works.

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Posted (edited)

My female friend has been using the herbal tea for two weeks now - she feels it helps however when she has excitement or stress then the herbs do not help her sleep - I feel that this is mostly a placebo - she does however enjoy the tea flavour and drinking it gives her a nighttime routine that helps.

 

Also, her Prurigo Nodularis (a skin condition) has come back with a vengeance even with the herbs. It seems that only cannabis is able to treat her anxiety, insomnia and Prurigo Nodularis. A quick search shows that Prurigo Nodularis is effectively treated by cannabis and is recommend were it is legal.

 

She has come around to the idea of getting approval for medical cannabis. 

 

 

Edited by Ishmael Fleishman

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On 11/7/2022 at 7:00 PM, Halcyon Daze said:

Hey mate, don't throw them in the bin. Bag them up n freeze them. You might find there is the very odd occasion where you need to call on their medicinal powers in a time of great need.

 

My understanding is that if you have a prescription then a judge will usually let you off. Just don't go driving when you're affected.  Give it a couple days and then you're pretty right. That's what most people have told me.

 

That is interesting - about the judge.

 

Giving it a couple of days after dosing is not an option I need nightly dosing to sleep. I really need a new job.

 

I work in an industry where even with a prescription I would be fired - let’s just say there are special federal and states laws that apply to my profession (major government department) because we are supposed to be above reproach. If it was found out that I was taking medical cannabis I would be fired. I came out as having mental health problems due to my work and the department continues to try to bully me quiet because people with mental illness are dangerous and cannot be trusted in the kind of work I do.

 

The funny thing is a 1/4 of the staff are drug/alcohol dependent and we have had two suicides in the last 4 years. Several staff members use cannabis/MDMA/LSD/heroin regularly. But they hide their problems well so fly under the department’s radar.

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Interesting, I've found that 1/4 of the staff are drug/alcohol dependent no matter where Im working. 

 

Anyway,  one step at a time, but make the legal prescription a top priority. Just tell the doctor that you tried a friend's oil and it was a life changing moment for your sleep and anxiety. You have to sell your case a bit, and make sure he realises it's medicinal all the way, and you're 100% serious, no funny business. 

 

Anyway acceptance of medicinal cannabis is getting better by the month, people can't discriminate against you over a legal medication. How dare they!

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Mulungu (Erythruna mulungu) can turn off anxiety almost instantly. Start low 1-2g to test strength of brew as potency varies exceptionally. Have had batches where up to 25g used for nothing more than an anti-anxiety effect, while have had batch where 10g brew resulted in tunnel vision and weird dissociative effect, so intense the day had to be surrendered to the experiment. Happened to 2 of us so not just me. Felt like a cross between DXM and a migraine headache without the pain.  Very strange and unexpected effect.

 

Vanuatu kava is my daily relaxer. 100g mix of Palarasul and Bir kar strains @ 4pm on empty stomach. Use a stick blender to thrash it in luke warm water and strain through tea towel and nylon cloth. For those prone to paranoia or anxiety from weed this is the time to blaze it if ya got it. The kava will eliminate that issue for you.

 

Remember anxiety is anticipating the future while depression is reminiscing the past, so connect with the present can help. Kava is great here. Mix your brew and then drink it in a nice spot as close to nature as you can get and try to stay in the moment and connect with the now.

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42 minutes ago, tryptamine said:

Mulungu (Erythruna mulungu) can turn off anxiety almost instantly. Start low 1-2g to test strength of brew as potency varies exceptionally. Have had batches where up to 25g used for nothing more than an anti-anxiety effect, while have had batch where 10g brew resulted in tunnel vision and weird dissociative effect, so intense the day had to be surrendered to the experiment. Happened to 2 of us so not just me. Felt like a cross between DXM and a migraine headache without the pain.  Very strange and unexpected effect.

 

Vanuatu kava is my daily relaxer. 100g mix of Palarasul and Bir kar strains @ 4pm on empty stomach. Use a stick blender to thrash it in luke warm water and strain through tea towel and nylon cloth. For those prone to paranoia or anxiety from weed this is the time to blaze it if ya got it. The kava will eliminate that issue for you.

 

Remember anxiety is anticipating the future while depression is reminiscing the past, so connect with the present can help. Kava is great here. Mix your brew and then drink it in a nice spot as close to nature as you can get and try to stay in the moment and connect with the now.

100g of kava is quite a lot, especially if that's your daily routine!

I've been getting nicely relaxed on 25-40g of the borogu Waka, but it feels like it's lacking some of the euphoric qualities of the old stuff I used to buy, so I'm hunting for a good heady variety now. 

I add a little coconut milk to the water as the kavalactones are oil soluble, and the added benefit is the taste is greatly improved.

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11 minutes ago, Glaukus said:

100g of kava is quite a lot, especially if that's your daily routine!

 

High stress lifestyle. I love my kava and like to get well soothed once I get got the chores out the way.

 

But yeah 25g is a god starting point for good Vanuatu kava. For anti-anxiety fx. Have consumed 150g (having prepared some for a friend who did not make it so drank there's too) without nausea or other side effects. Where with lower grade commercial Fiji kava, a mild nausea begins at doses over 50g, especially until a meal is consumed. The last Tongan kava I tried was bad with strong nausea at 50g. Smelt very stale. Have had good Tongan a decade or so back though. Some Fiji can be cut with flour so that could have been a factor there. Be good to have a test for this. I am yet to try Fiji kava that is as clean as the Vanuatu but there kava should in theory be good if you can get it fresh enough / early enough in the supply chain. Good Fiji waka can drink 100g without side effects.

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