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Meditator

Lets talk metaphysics

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Why is there something, rather than nothing? 
 

an old question.. my thoughts below:

 

the possibilities of a reality have existed always in the (Platonic philosophy) realm of forms.

numbers.. are.. infinite. Then bring in how many different ways you can divide them and then how many decimals and their individual values.. DMT level there lets get into pure philosophy.

 

numbers are mental in nature. To comprehend a number as pure consciousness you have to enter the luminous mind/invisible consciousness! In this state all you have is silence and the void which is.. pure (literally) clear sight with nothing behind.. yet only the clarity of seeing nothingness itself. In this state you see no boundary for your vision (hence the concept of infinity being possible!) because.. there is nothing to see relative to. Look beyond your visions boundary in any direction.. Thats what its like but from the nonexistent centre (which is you!... but you probably exist) hahaha. Clarity of void, clarity of silence (potential of sound). But they are of an alike essence. Total inactivity. Yet the potential for a type of expansion into an ‘altered state’ which would be consciousness beyond your sense of “I AM” to “I perceive this” such as sound. I say altered state because mind can operate with consciousness to develop many different ways of thinking and perceiving.

 

now, because of the realm of forms, the potential for the (keep in mind quantum physicist now say the old philosophers saying all is mental are wrong, all is consciousness) unconscious birth of reality might have spontaneously been touched by the simplest platonic solid. The tetrahedron! Fire! Light! 
 

 

 

 

 

 

heres a rather magical thought...

 

nothingness... and pure consciousness... the consciousness slowly merges with the nothingness.. the nothingness gains something, a substance of light (consciousness) and the consciousness gains nothing.. ness.. anyone know how to do math cuz this sounds almost quanta-fiable HAH! Anyone get that pun xD?

 

i sound like a crack head. Anyone else have any insights or theories o_O?

 

edit: in Zen its called luminous mind, and in yoga its called Sa asmita samadhi. Not trying to brag, but it is very cool to enter the void.

Edited by Meditator
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god is electricity in the brain. we are hardwired like that.

what interests me a lot as an atheist, is what replaces this in the atheists mind in some form of non-religious spirituality. 

 

also, do theists and not theists 'light up' the same parts of the brain with the same intensity, when for example they are having a fantastic time dancing to their favourite artists live gig?  

Do different style of music light up different parts of the brain, like psychedelic music, hardcore rap music, extreme metal music, jazz, classical... that's some questions I have which I find interesting. 

 

God? god is only one name. spirituality, esoterism, transcedence are all neurochemistry..  Clearly, in my mind, the study of "god" should be the study of the  trancedent experience in humans while doing electro scans of the brain. 

 

But most people dont like the idea, neither atheists, nor theists. oh well. 

Edited by sagiXsagi
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Bro i said metaphysics not theology lol

 

the science of God must be taken into account nonetheless. And i whole heartedly believe true atheists will have a different mode of perception from those inclined to believe there is more. 
 

like a psychotic atheist wont have visions of angelic realms, and certainly wont have enough psychotic energy to reach the realm of mystical consciousness..... they would probably just hallucinate paranoid concepts such as doctors conspiring against them.... dont get me wrong that shit happens! Take it from me!!.... jk lol

<.<

Edited by Meditator
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On 04/05/2020 at 7:34 PM, Meditator said:

Bro i said metaphysics not theology lol

 

 

Bro its the same thing and the same discussion from the atheist perspective.  Metaphysics are the same kind of stuff as religions and gods, you know,  the same as psychedelic theism (f.e. cosmic entities etc).  Largest difference is one of scope, metaphysics refer to beliefs not as powerful and as organised like a true organised religion. One could say that metaphysics is all the same mumbo jumbo without the political power that true religion has.  But you said it yourself, a discussion on metaphysics needs mention of god.

 

I admit, shamanic-inspired/derived neo-religions (meta-religions?)  are a lot different in terms of quality in that the believer talks and experiences his 'god' directly, unlike the majority of the believers of established large religions.  And then you have all kinds of hybrids, like for example a psychedelic theist which is also a christian. The possibilities are virtually endless. 

 

On 04/05/2020 at 7:34 PM, Meditator said:

the science of God

well its only science if we are measuring and monitoring with an EEG. Which would make it neurobiology and not theology. Lets hope in the future theologists will be more open minded (I doubt it) and will collaborate with neurobiologists, so that theology becomes a true science. That kind of ideal theology would examine meditation, psychosis, psychedelic experiences, mystical experiences etc the same way and would compare them. That would be awesome! 

 

********

 

 I like it that you brought the psychotic mind in the discussion. It's interesting what you say, that the psychotic atheist would have different types of hallucinations than a believers. You didnt state this clearly, but you seem to imply that a believers psychosis is more valid, more credible, more powerful and truer than an atheists. This is really interesting to think about.  Makes you wonder if the tendency to be a rationalist is hard-wired in your brian and not coming from conditioning. 

 

Its also interesting that all states of mind like psychotic episodes, deep meditative states, apocalyptic experiences and psychedelic experiences  all share the same neurobiology, they 'light up'  the same passages in the brain. 

 

Could religiousness (belief in any form of metaphysics) be a direct or indirect product of different degrees of phychosis in the history of humanoids? Could this be a more complex phenomenon led by the evolutionary need of the species to believe in otherworlds?  Is psychosis (and related pathology) the way of nature and evolution to create spiritual ideas and spiritual leaders?  I have long wondered with this 'dangerous' question, what is psychosis "use" from an evolutionary perspective?  What's the point of it?  Is religion a milestone invention of humanity towards creating societies?? an inevitable step of apes that grow conscious brains? 

 

On 04/05/2020 at 7:34 PM, Meditator said:

like a psychotic atheist wont have visions of angelic realms, and certainly wont have enough psychotic energy to reach the realm of mystical consciousness..... 

 

So, according to your thinking (correct me if I am wrong), psychosis and psychedelic drugs can have similar results, but the non-religious people cannot reach the same 'heights' as believers.

 

Do 'metaphysics' , or any form of religious spirituality, or  "mystical consciousness"  REQUIRE  that one is either a psychotic or consume psychedelic drugs?  And if yeah, how does the rationalist / atheist fit if he is excluded from the "club" of the 'mystical'?  If my train of thought about your assumptions is right, that would mean that his (the psychotic atheist's) lack of belief in the 'other' would be the only thing that prevents him from 'seeing'. Is believing a conscious choice?

 

And also, are there REALLY psychotic atheists?  

 

So, leaving the psychosis arguement aside, what's the difference between a non-psychotic believers "mystical consciousness"  and non psychotic atheists "spiritual trancendence" ?   Is it only the metaphysical element?? And why would the metaphysical experience is superior to the non metaphysical one?? Can't an atheist have a 'mystical' experience, and btw what's 'mystical' ??  Why is the "wow" experience more worthy when its about cosmic entities than when its about another "type of wow"?  

 

Then again, if metaphysics / mystical consciousness require either you be a psychotic or the use of powerful hallucinations, or both, then how is any of it reliable? how do we know its not an illusion??  Do we even care?  How do we tell the true OG shaman from a random bloke with illusions and hallucinations? 

 

**********

 

I also find it very interesting when I see how physics of the microcosmos fascinates people, notably religious people. With the popularisation of quantum physics and the large publicity of science's expensive attempts to find particles, we have seen the rise of a new school of meta-religious narrations. Clearly this whole new world of a microcosmos ruled by propabilities, a completely different kind of physics, fascinates people who believe in metaphysics.  

The same thing is propably happening and will happen more in the future with lots of cosmology's theories and concepts, like dark matter, dark energy, and more interestingly, different types of multi-verse's (various theories on multiple universes existing).  

 

Maybe its a matter of personal aesthetics, or maybe its my atheism, but I dont find the study of the structure of matter (microcosmos) that interesting. I dont feel it has so great existential power. 

Instead, I find it immensly interesting in the chemical level how a planet in a suns habitable zone can be like a huge machine that produces new elements and new minerals from the same building blocks. And how, like some poetically say, we are made from 'cosmic dust' , literally. 

 

Maybe I instictively stick to what McKenna had said because I am a realist: we need tangible ideas, not ideas as tiny that will go through the nets (microcosmos) or so big that we cannot process (the "cosmic whole").  Medium ideas/fish  to take ashore and discuss/eat  with the other folks. 

 

Peace

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Hold up im on my phone. Starting my laptop.

 

theology is more of a field swayed and lead by religious beliefs. For example in Kabbalah God is androgynous. This has many implications. Theology is more of the nature of God. Metaphysics is the science of things. So to understand a religions beliefs is different from the branch of metaphysics im talking about. I forget the name of it.

 

 

But im talking about how the creation (God included if you wanna call God the creative force) may have started. 
bits of metaphysical theory. Not theology. Ok my laptops nearly open.

 

edit: lol btw im with you on the true shaman vs just some guy who trips on ayahuasca or something. They dont have the icaros or a trained lineage teacher. Shamans can guide a person to certain levels of awareness for healing through the icaros and i would bet they understand the levels of mind better than some guy who, even as honest in his approach to understanding, is learning by themselves.

Edited by Meditator

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6 hours ago, sagiXsagi said:

 

 

So, leaving the psychosis arguement aside, what's the difference between a non-psychotic believers "mystical consciousness"  and non psychotic atheists "spiritual trancendence" ?   Is it only the metaphysical element?? And why would the metaphysical experience is superior to the non metaphysical one?? Can't an atheist have a 'mystical' experience, and btw what's 'mystical' ??  Why is the "wow" experience more worthy when its about cosmic entities than when its about another "type of wow"?  

 

 

Well i never said my metaphysical experience which was a form of transcendence (could be called mystical) of the void (which i have heard people on ketamine can experience quite easily with meditation) was superior. Infact i believe the average psychedelic trip would be slightly more interesting. CERTAINLY more euphoric. So youve blatantly put words in my mouth there.
An atheist certainly could have a mystical experience. Holotropic breathwork can indeed bring about states such as turiya (pure consciousness) and more. But when we talk of mystical dimensions.. Theyre usually linked to archetypal things such as God, so a concrete atheist is probably not gonna get there. I said certainly but now that i think of it, psychosis can cause a very rapid change in perceptions and beliefs. Mystical consciousness is a broad term though. But if the archetypal forms of God and angels dont sway the mind they probably wont catch the psychotic into a state of delusion that theyre seeing God. 
Also i never even brought up "cosmic entities". Youve come into this as if its an argument against something..? Dude im agnostic lol.

edit: also a religious person has probably read many more books on spiritual topics than an atheist. So take you have to take that into account.

 

However you do bring to the table some interesting thoughts.

But the metaphysical theories i put forward are not at all about God. If you ever enter Sa asmita samadhi through meditation you will understand what the hell im saying. 

 

But yeah man, psychosis can bring on states of consciousness drugs cannot. They have shown that stress and psychosis raise endogenous DMT through the roof. 
 

Edited by Meditator

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Metaphysics by definition are a branch of speculative theory. There's no definitive proof to show that any of the topics exist anywhere except in people's imaginations. So... all religion and self belief, universe belief, and to a large extent quantum theory fall into this broad topic.

 

Being an Flying Spaghetti Monster acolyte I'm fairly well versed in why my pitiful beliefs are just as valid as anyone else's. Through meditation, psychosis, fasting, plant medicines and being simply quiet I've dived deep into complex dreamlike states that include massive complex and somewhat meaningful geometry, temples, guardians, light tunnels, space and time itself. All these things have shown me is that I know absolutely nothing.

 

I could claim that my visions hold some sort of validity, but I don't really know that. I do know that monotheistic beliefs are clearly nonsense. Nowhere in my travels in the mind have I encountered and all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent, single point of creation. Everything appears as duality always. The only time I have encountered entities that appear God-like I've finally come to the realisation that these things are just me. They are a product of my consciousness. As difficult as it is when these states of mind go sideways and and the experiences become difficult the inverse applies as well. Everything went so swimmingly well, I was left with a sense of peace and awe, wonder and perhaps even contentment. But, am I willing to accept these givings on face value? Am I willing to lie to myself about the fabric of existence just because it makes me happy? Unfortunately not.

 

I'm not convinced there is such a thing as a true shaman. Is there a shaman certificate you get for taking loads of plant medicines and then sitting with the spirits and finally getting more than 70% of the test right? I think not. Same as there are no true mystics nor true prophets. I get that the more you look at the nature of reality without reservation the more inclined you are to accept it's infinite realities, but that is a working of self forgiveness, release of fear, empathy, serenity and compassion. The more you understand your own nature the better you are able to understand others as well. But this isn't a form of mysticism or shamanism. It's just plain old logic applied to the topic where you learn about yourself, by listening to yourself.

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cool replies. 

 

Hey Meditator, dont take this personally dude, my arguments might seem agressive at times, but it's just an attempt to compile the human experience under a single umbrella and then discuss. Part of what I was asking was coming from trying to compare the shaman way and the rational (atheist) way.  Does it matter what colour transcendence has? 

 

I guess I might be wondering "how many different types of trance/exctacy/epiphany  are there, and how do they compare?"   . And since you mention euphoria, that's an interesting note (northerner says something relevant too) ,  what role does euphoria or dysphoria play in the way we perceive transcedent / mystical  states of mind ?? 

 

Sorry if I took it too much into the atheist realm.  But I think its cool even for such a topic to have an atheist perspective.  Sorry if I came out as disrespectful to your thinking and beliefs. 

 

Keep it up, I will return to this thread..  

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I am not offended lol. Youre just telling me your view. But fair enough, to compile this huge topic needs an energy to describe ones own point of view. 
 

I believe euphoria/ecstasy has an integral part to play in mysticism and what not. All yogis and mystics describe bliss upon transcendental experiences.

 

there is the path of suffering though..... but upon transcendence there would of course be bliss. 
 

they say the “source” Recharges you from inside. Daoist masters charge up with chi from their lower dan tien and use that energy to do internal alchemy (nei gong). Its like plugging into the matrix of energy.
 

Northerner, there are true shamans. Definitely. There are true yogi masters. I dont understand why youre saying there arent.. could you tell us why?  Like sure there are no certificates.. but thats like saying someone whos been meditating in the mountains for years isnt a meditator. A true meditator you could call them.

 

 

 

Edited by Meditator
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I guess somewhere still there exists a true Shaman in the traditional sense. There aren't 1000s of self deluded druggies claiming to be Yogis in the west like there are Shamans though. Every self proclaimed shaman I ever met was just a self deluded tripper, bought into their own illusions. Even shamanism in South America is a dying religion, it's dying with tribalism and capitalist globalism. I would challenge that very few so called shamans that practice capitalist drug industry for western visitors are little more than plant cooks and narcotic bartenders. It doesn't take great skill to trip sit and guide people on psychedelic journeys, I know that from experience. Call me cynical if you wish though. The study of yoga on the other hand is an ancient religious practice. It does take a hell of a lot of study, practice, practise and determination to achieve the elevated states of mind that can be found within. But be aware these practices are dogmatic in nature as well, so absolutely not comparable to shamanistic practices which are more a discovery of self and "reality" through altered states that don't have defined theism. 

 

I find that much of our lives and society is based around illusion. These illusions can be self created or forced into us by others. But there is a point where we as individuals choose to accept them or not. In that act as create these things as tangible realities, yet they are in reality fantasies. We even deem some of these fantasies as integral parts of our psyche whilst others are labelled as illness. I've been looking deeply again at these perceptions and illusions that make our society what it is and how I relate to them. I'm less convinced than ever, but more aware of what it is that I'm less convinced of now. 

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Lol this thread went no where fast..

 

If God is actually our collective mind then this thread was doomed from the beginning. We/you/I/? may have planned this thread to end up as a fail.

 

But i shall still add a metaphysical thought just for effect ;)

 

Reality.. its a concept.. comprehendable to mind. Same with consciousness.. the light.

I believe mind is a form of empty substance. It isnt made of anything. Its made of what is within it! The thought itself.. unless there is a thinker...

 

With that said, we must beg the question.. can we turn that emptiness inside out so to say.. Is consciousness made of mind? The Buddhist masters say the mind is “pure white light”... and as i said.. physicists now believe everything in this physical universe is actually consciousness ;) white is the colour of purity................ 

Edited by Meditator

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maybe it went fast to nowehere because your theism is so specific!  

 

if reality is a concept,  lets see people walking though a wall

 

PS: "physicists now believe everything in this physical universe is actually consciousness "  NO THEY DONT! 

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Metaphysics by definition are a branch of speculative theory. There's no definitive proof to show that any of the topics exist anywhere except in people's imaginations. 

 

Northerner's post is very good (except for the part about no true shamans, which is completely false, culturally speaking).

 

If you combine Northerner's quote, above, with sagis: "if reality is a concept,  lets see people walking though a wall", you have essentially the foundation for Kant's "science of metaphysics" (Critique of Pure Reason, 1781), which is the key work of the Western metaphysical tradition, and basically concluded metaphysical knowledge is not possible and remains a matter of faith. If something cannot be given in sense experience ("if reality is a concept,  lets see people walking though a wall"), it cannot be said to be objective. Metaphysical concepts represent incorrect use of physical concepts ("There's no definitive proof to show that any of the topics exist anywhere except in people's imaginations"). Indemonstrable metaphysical concepts are, e.g. god (theological), the beginning/end of the universe (cosmological), the soul (psychological), prelife/afterlife, even the idea that nature is systematic (since it is impossible to cognize the whole of this system). We need to think these things in some way (in Kant's term they are "regulative" of experience), but they remain outside of the possibility of objective cognition (where objective cognition is the "constitutive" use of concepts in sense experience).

 

The eastern tradition is a bit different. Where the Western tradition says all you can know are objects of sense, the eastern tradition says all there really is are objects free of sense (empty of content), i.e. the sensory manifold is an illusion. I prefer the Western tradition for its internal deductive logic and positivist spin, but the eastern has some definite value.

Edited by Micromegas
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On 18/08/2020 at 2:20 AM, sagiXsagi said:

maybe it went fast to nowehere because your theism is so specific!  

 

if reality is a concept,  lets see people walking though a wall

 

PS: "physicists now believe everything in this physical universe is actually consciousness "  NO THEY DONT! 

Lol settle down mate, ive read many sources saying the universe is conscious. And things of the like. And i cant site it but i was watching a few quantum physicists [youtube video] talking on one topic and he was explaining that a lot of them after doing a fair amount of digging into the nature of the energetic truth behind qunata, and in essence many were starting to be convinced that the whole of reality is conscious. Ill say less.
 

as for walking or putting things through solid walls, ive heard of it being done by “super psychic” children in China. If you dont believe you dont believe, youre seemingly a skeptic with a confirmation bias so im not here to change your mind. I myself believe it is possible. Padmasambhava (and other advanced yogis) have printed a handprint into cave walls.. ive seen videos of it ^^ 

 

with that said, if youre not going to dig yourself all i can say is dont point any fingers when youre the ignorant one.

 

i dont say things for no reason. Im not a bullshit artist haha.  
 

my theism was too specific? i didnt come here to talk about the nature of the creative force as a personality holding being that has inteded for the laws of nature to implement order from chaos or anything. Its everyone else who brought God into this. I just elaborated a bit with my thoughts...

Edited by Meditator
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dont take it personally mate.. talking to a strong atheist about your theism is pretty brave so kudos to you. 

its just an arguement between our belief systems. 

 

ok let me try to get into your thing 

conscious universe:   the concept of the universe, lets take the standard expanding model is definately impressive. the physics in it are different, the sizes are different... how ever we tend to know more about it, it doesnt   get less mysterious.. but its another scale. and another timeline. 

 

our REAL world here on earth is not less impressive! but its directly linked to us, our evolution, our scale, our timeline

 

from where I am looking it would be much easier to accept that the earth is a conscious organism,  than with the universe.. Earth has tons of magic things about it.. carbon circle, water circle, earth crust, crystals, minerals, its fucking wild!  and the whole timeline, and direct or indircet relations are tangible. 

 

PS: that must not what you were talking about, but cave prints 

 

plus I am not sure if you know about the so called fermi paradox.. I personally dont find it that paradox that we havent met aliens, and I tend to believe that the notion of us being the only that much evolved  beings in the conceivable universe is not that wild. 

 

you might find interesting the several theories about parallel universes proposed in cosmology. 

 

and then we have , quantum physics and microcosmos...  this is the new trend in neo-theism...   I get it.. you see the physics on microcosmos and you are like what???  but again different scale, different bahaviour, different time-line, when matter becomes waves . 

 

Sure if you take quantum physics and you project them to real life, you can image someone passing through a wall.. but the physics of microcosmos apply only to the microcosmos.. 

 

To sum up, I am a strong atheist, but if I were into a belief system where some higher being or conscious entity would be, man that would definately be earth... the rest of the universe seems cold and uninhabited.  the microcosmos, well its not all that interesting to me.. but how this 4 billion year old planet has such a self sutaining system to the point we evolved,  thats wow, thats the magic for me ... 

in that sense I feel closer to pagans and what not than to any other religious system. 

 

PS: say more about the kid in chine that could pass through a wall.. lets say he did it.. what does this prove?  how did he do it??   and why no camera has ever recorded something like that without experts of videoediting debunk it??  

 

by the way, this is an awesome  youtube channel of a dude creating awesome entertaining videos debunking  supernatural vides

 

Edited by sagiXsagi
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I see what youre saying..  This is what i came here to talk about lol

 

Well lets think about this from my thinking.. let us say that God is consciousness (and for fuck sake i dont believe in any form of theism, i dont believe everything is conscious, maybe mind, but not consciousness itself..) and because that energy is all pervasive, everything is conscious..

 

consciousness itself is a conceptualizable thing... so is a wall.. it has shape and qualities (such as density, and location in relation to other 3D objects such as the earth and moon).. and consciousness due to vision has a location in the head (disputable, but most people subjectively hold this belief strongly due to our vision being centered behind the eyes.. and our brain and therefore our mind/consciousness is affected by psychoactive drugs) 

 

NDEs often have people floating above their body looking down.. even astral projectors.. in sleep paralysis i see whats infront of me and i damn well know my eyes are closed..

 

anyway, lets say there is a consciousness grid.. we simply leave the head and see with this astral vision because we are connected to everything through this conscious grid (the third eye can see the astral and physical according to your internal frequency) and i can link a Buddhist who had an OBE as a kid and he saw his brother drop a jug of milk or something and he reentered his body and went downstairs and he saw exactly what he saw out of body!!1!!!0.0!!!!!!! He dropped the damn milk bro

bruh the CIA have released the documents of their experiments on remote viewing.. they still use it today. If you believe the US G. found Osama then i would bet they remote viewed him.. 

 

now think about this.... maybe our consciousness is just veiled from the fullness of reality/cosmic consciousness due to mind.. maybe when we attune to the right levels of insight we unlock the full experience of what is called “God realisation” or “cosmic consciousness”? I mean vipassana (insight) meditation is the key to enlightenment in Buddhism. Although Zen often goes straight for satori through anapansati.. although they use koans (which give direct insights into the workings of the mind) as well but satori comes in meditation.

 

 

anyway. Lets take another thing into account. 
 

the wall has density and location as well as colour and thickness.. if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? When no one is looking.. whos to say the wall is there? Whos to say the wall has the same properties when we all look away?

 

unless there is an observer, there is a definite change in the result of an outcome! We have proven this through the double slit experiment. We know that subatomic particles behave differently under an electron microscope.


say Milarepa knew (as some ancient Indians and therefore Tibetans would as well) about the philosophy of the 3 part atom(the ancient Indian philosophy of vaisesika).. he could have used his wisdom (which in Kabbalah is the active power of one of [chockmah] the highest three sephirot [the supernal triangle]) to believe! And knowing his oneness with the cave wall, he manipulated the outcome of him pressing his hands into the wall that he would push into the wall and make a handprint..

 

at a subatomic level there is a thing called non-locality, with wisdom and a lot of training you could manipulate matter.. 

 

talking of sephirot i was contemplating it (not just the tree of life but the entire philosophy of Kabbalah) the other night and realised a way to manifest light using the power of intention and thought (as well as ain sof)..and I accidentally thought about it and accidentally thought the thought.. i damn near blinded myself! I cant visualise (aphantasia) and i certainly cannot visualise a flash of white light that literally hurt my damn eyes lmao.. placebo? I really really doubt it.. as soon as i shat myself due to the flash i forgot what the process of creating the flash was.. so youll have to either take my word for it or call me crazy ^^ all i remember was i was contemplating using the thought of nothingness (“ain” which is an infinite source of mental energy you can tap into) as well as the qualities of tipharet.. man my brain shit itself for a few seconds after the flash..

 

ive done telekinesis bro.. its real bro..... or am i just fuckin with ya.. lol....... im not.. swear to the God i dont even believe in.. its real. I am be a joker at times.. but sometimes im dead serious. 
 

if you can manipulate a mind to not believe someone that they did something (brainwashing/common beliefs) whos to say you cant make a wall believe youre not there and jump right through it? 
 

i believe the mind is probably the essence of the universe. I cant imagine consciousness ever escaping the essence of mind.. no matter how altered it is.

 

i also believe in magick. But i hate religion. Ive done many blasphemous things.. burnt bibles.. worse than that too.. as i said i didnt come here to talk about theism. Pure metaphysical thoughts lol


 

edit: making a wall (the mental structure) not believe physical matter to be existing (in a certain place or at all) and jumping through it sounds too airy fairy even for me..

 

youve seen how you can have a fake hand brushed at the same time as a persons in the same anatomical place a few times with the person looking at said fake hand.. then they hit the fake hand with a hammer and for a second the subject feels very real pain?

 

if you (lets say youre a mentally evolved and spiritually evolved being knowing what youre doing) identify with the wall.. and become one with it (like someone in cosmic consciousness becoming one with the whole universe and seeing everything in the cosmos down to the atoms) and make your body pass through the wall by making your body of the nature of sound and the wall being non-locally oblivious to the physical body as if it were light passing through the air, there would be little resistance.

 

and again. Ive done telekinesis! I identified with the object and quite literally felt it as a part of myself and i moved it EXACTLY as i wanted it to move. And i wasnt on drugs..

 

second edit: there are videos of telekinesis.. and there are videos of people healing cancer with chi transference (basically reiki) from China. 
 

But do you believe earth to be conscious? I mean it would make a lot of sense.. humans being so disconnected from nature we have started to destroy it like a fucking cancer for one.. everything was sweet until humans started making weapons.. but does the wise Gaia have a plan.. i mean nature has wisdom in all alchemical metaphysical systems..

Edited by Meditator

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Hey, sorry for delay, I come here only from time to time. 

I have to read your post more thoroughly with more time, but for now here are some fast points: 

1)  you go all over the concept of consciousness, but you never bother to define it..  consciousness is a pretty "thick" and not so simple concept to grasp.. its seems only natural to think of consciousness like a "grid behind the eyes"  but I feel its a very big discussion on its own .  

2) there are many interesting patterns, from NDEs to very similar myths across the ancient world among unrelated civilisations. A sceptic / atheist, can only  assume we visualise similar things / make up similar stories/myths because we have the same perception systems, or the same faults in our perception. Think of how tropane (datura)  trips are typically  identical, regardless of age country etc.  Does it prove the metaphysical? no

3) "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"  of course it does!! and the sound will  scare off any birds around.  sound is waves traveling through the air. you dont need an observer to have sound - you only need air.. I think you are overfocusing on what you have read about the physics of the microcosmos.. Nothing from quantum physics is true in the real world..  impressive, yeah, but nothing to do with the real world...  While in microcosmos the observer affects the experiment, in the real world it doesnt matter if we have an observer or not.  quantum physics is about the nature of matter, which is another size of world.  its not the "real" world where mammals exist and evolved.  In that sense, there's no way to "be the wall" in any real sense. I do see its fascinating, but I cant understand how people justify using scientific data to project on our real life other than theist desires and existential questions.. And I also dont really understand that degree of fascination in the microcosmos of quantum physics, and not f.e. in the much more real but also fascinating microcosmos of microorganisms. 

4) needless to say, claims bout magic healings of cancer, telekinisis etc  I dont believe. I dont know how to respond. 

5) "if you can manipulate a mind to not believe someone that they did something (brainwashing/common beliefs) whos to say you cant make a wall believe youre not there and jump right through it? "  well thats easy, people can be either brainwashed / manipulated to believe something crazy, or even make it up themselves.. BUT it doesnt make it true in a physical sense... Its never true - its only true in their minds.. Conspiracy theorists, say  flat-earthers really do believe what they propose.. But why?? how??  what are the mechanics of  believiing in irrational things???   The base of all this is belief . Just like religion. Just like theism. just like metaphysics. if you truly believe something, then its a true story - but only in your mind.. Even millions of people believing tha same crazy shit doesnt make it true.. 

6) "But do you believe earth to be conscious? " No. I said that to me it makes more sense to think of the earth like a conscious thing, than, say the universe,  as we know that earth is a magnificent self-regulating system..  But in my eyes,  comparing a conscious earth with a non-conscious earth  ,  the non-conscious one seems more fascinating!!  And more real.. Of course this is in part becasue I find  belief in anything metaphysics philosophically  and aesthetically lazy.  There's a certain pride in an true atheists point of view :  we never believed in non-existent stuff so our point of view is always consistent with reality.  

 

PS:  you know about that?? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge

do you really believe that there are people who can actively produce metaphysical events and they are all hiding?? 

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This is good, critical thinking and valid points against “magical thinking”. And that question about the tree falling making no sound, ive always had the same view. But i raised the question because when there is no observer, there is a difference in outcome. Consciousness (a conscious mind observing phenomena) affects reality. You say in the microcosm alone (which is debate-able, because we are both ignorant of the true nature of reality at this point) but what about doing telekinesis? I have done it. When i say i “identified” with the object, i meant that i literally felt it as a part of my energy/body. I felt the metallic texture of the aluminum. Now when i did this, i saw an aura around my hand that was green and i connected it to the object and felt its metallic nature, at which point i felt like i could move it as if it were my body. So i did move it exactly how i wanted and then i was a bit shocked that it worked so easily and the object actually fell off what it was standing on. It broke the connection between my mind and itself. The aura disappeared and i couldnt reconnect the same way. So youll have to take my word on it. I cannot visualise eyes closed or open, so when i made the auric feild i couldn’t possibly have made such a VIVID colour with eyes open and then manipulate it into going to the object, once it was connected and i was identifying with the object i moved it exactly as i wanted. Something metaphysical science could explain. Just science. 

 

now belief is a powerful thing. It is of the nature of mind and has the power of consciousness. I believed it was possible, but doubted i could do it honestly, was just screwing around and it happened. Once I identified with the object it was as easy and clenching a fist or opening it to move it. 
 

The fact that people have made handprints on the walls of caves and mountains is something we cant ignore. I have read a book by a scientist/doctor (Joe Dispenza) that was very very well educated. He said the handprints made by Milarepa (Tibetan yogi, very famous in Tibet) on the cave walls were definitely real because scientists have never found a way to replicate them. 
 

Hermetic science believes that everything is mental in nature. So im just postulating that if you can identify your mind with the mind of a physical object (with accuracy and not a mere delusional sense of it) then you can manipulate it. Whether its physically move it, or say make waters temperature change ect. 
 

To do these things though, you would need to have mental strength. No doubt, calm, and clear intent.

 

Ive heard of a person having kundalini awakening and feeling like they could feel the couch they were on as a part of them. Literally like their body awareness had expanded past their body and started identifying with the couch as a part of them. This is different from “feeling one with everything”, but i believe that level of awareness would help to identify with a physical object. 
 

i dont know what youre trying to get across with the second point though, if you could elaborate that would be good. 

 

but with the first, thats a good thing to point out. Consciousness isnt a simple phenomena.. it implies mind, it implies a reality to be conscious of or in, it implies time and knowledge.. emotions, how conscious (like sleepy or alert).

 

But like.... what do you have to say about the metaphysical science/system behind elevating consciousness to the spiritual worlds above the physical world in Kabbalah? If it didnt work, it wouldnt be in use. Its based on the idea that the creator of the universe is real. But thats not what im getting at, im just sayin, bruh this stuff is metaphysical and has been used since before the common era (ei before 1AD).

 

If you look at the Kabbalistic tree of life, the complexity and knowledge it holds is a science. Disputing its credibility based on scientific facts after years of study (which is necessary to learn enough about it) is something id love to hear but have never found this. So i guess you cant do that. But if you want to look into it thats up to you. Debating its validity without studying it for years would be a bit laughable. Sort of how i would seem to you saying “bruh just identify with the wall, and tell it youre not there, you can jump through it” haha i even find that funny.

 

but before you say anything about how Kabbalah has some “belief in God”, i will have to say that the Kabbalists idea of God isnt theistic. From what i know, the creator is more of a force. The creative force. i dont believe in God per se, just that there is something. And that something  would probably be the “creative force”. And that to me is true metaphysics. All the other stuff ive said is tip toeing around the core idea of this. 

 

 

 

 

As for the last PS. Bit, i have heard about it. It ended years ago though. I just double checked and yes it ended in 2015. 
 

people who are enlightened dont show off power it is said. Im not enlightened so i just say what i say for mere fun/speculation. I havent managed to do telekinesis since so for all you know im just trying to make others believe me for some kind of attention. Which is fair, a lot of BS is spread on the internet.

 

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I dont want this debate to become useless point against point like arguing lol

But you say things dont exist and therefore aren’t reasonable to believe. But we dont know the mechanics of reality itself. We have evidence and a lot of it, of the big bang. But we are fuqin rekt when trying to explain the creative force behind it!

 

heres my theory though. Everything that’s possible to conceive, every possible thought, action, intent, situation, state of consciousness.. literally EVERYTHING POSSIBLE.. in its form of potentiality (potential existence) forms a reality. All that mental energy existed already. You cant say before the big bang nothing was possible without ignoring your own ignorance on the dimensions of what was before the big bang. But time itself is a way of these timeless essences (potential realities such as forms and shapes and consciousness) to exist. So the energy of reality is coming from a place of mind. And its evolving through the hand of consciousness. This is my theory.

 

before the big bang was nothing? Nothing is the polar opposite of something. That something was every possibility! Before the big bang implies time. Time existed before the big bang? Well that implies mind. That implies consciousness. Yin and yang. They probably collapsed on eachother to create this universe. Only a theory to the riddle of existence.

 

But,

Ill just say look into Kabbalah and see for yourself, because its useless to talk or debate something which even i havent touched deeply enough to know enough to base anything off. Making a point beyond “well what about Kabbalah” is as far as i can reasonably mention it. That flash when contemplating the sephirot could have been psychological. I was thinking very hard lol.. but i cant visualise at all.......

 

Im here just saying ideas. metaphysical dynamics. Sparking the light in the unknown. 

Edited by Meditator

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The perennial philosophers mention the unmanifested principle underlying all manifestations -- the Vedic conception of the Absolute. The unchanging, immutable is inferred by the existence of its opposite (constant dynamism, change, evolution). Anything that can be conceptualised, imagined regarding the Absolute ... is anything but the Absolute Itself, which cannot be spoken about with any degree of fixity or certainty (only ever allusively, intuitively, if at all). 

 

No doubt such conceptions flunk the test of western metaphysics (e.g. logical positivism). But they do have spiritual power. Human being is extremely limited in its grasp of the All, in part due to our limited sense/perception and cognitive capabilities. The notion that human reason might comprehend, accommodate, and eventually master It -- through, say, technology -- is truly wishful ("magical") thinking.

 

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.

 

Do atheists describe the non existent god as a being taking some familiar form? 

 

Take away the physical sensory world and you're left with conscious experience which seems to reside within something else. Even the physical world, you're here, you reside within the physical universe. 

 

Whatever the system is that houses your conscious experience, that is your god whether you like it or not. 

 

In the physical, the universe is your god, however illusory it may be. You are at its mercy.  

 

In deep meditations I've sometimes experienced a feeling that we were in sort of a simulation that was bound to occur, but far beyond what we consider that word to mean of course. However unfortunate and panic inducing it is, if true, I am at the "simulation's" mercy and it is (also unfortunately) my god. 

 

This is just an opinion and I'm not here to argue, just curious. 

 

 

Edit: a scenario that could make this untrue is the Gnostic idea of Sophia or her offspring having created the impure material world and that there are layers of consciousness. So the layer we reside in is untrue, and although we are primarily at its mercy, it is not our true god. 

Edited by Pedro99

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Yeah i didnt even want to mention gnosticism.. but if we were to interpret this religous belief as allegory, and see the creator (who is the son of sophia, a bastard child as he is described) of this universe (which scientists often think probably is a simulation, theres literal computer code in reality! But i found an arguement against this idea but it was too complex for me to understand honestly..) to be some kind of force beyond/above our universal laws and beyond human comprehension, then it makes more sense to me. Jesus told the serpent to tell Eve to eat the apple.. so Jesus could possibly be an entity/force/law above our world that induced a reaction to the force of Eve and Adam to go against their creator and become aware of the impurity of this creation. 
 

ive always seen the first man and woman to be akin to an allegorical reference (like a Kabbalistic text, speaking in code) to the forces that caused our existence. Pretty much metaphysical description, but thats not my belief, just a possibility. Genesis is told both dogmatically and allegorically. I have no firm beliefs around it.... 

 

edit: the ego and the world we are seemingly trapped in, would be our God makes sense. Satan means “the light bearer” so light is consciousness, and our consciousness is trapped in the ego.. we are all under Satans mercy until we can i dont know, liberate ourselves or something like that. Liberation and enlightenment are often used synonymously. And in advaita (nondual) vedanta, samadhi is a state of nondual awareness where the ego is no longer a thing. What the hell that feels like im at a loss to even think.. without a observer there is no ego. So to me being without ego means being without point of reference, and that means no sense of “i am conscious”... 

 

that post brings up good questions Pedro99

 

we are made in Gods image in the bible.. weve probably all seen the pictures of the universe and how our bodies are identical looking in structure to certain parts of galaxies. 

Edited by Meditator
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Very interesting stuff @Meditator

I like the idea you wrote about Jesus giving the knowledge of good/evil through the serpent. After my deepest and most unsettling meditation that had an air of "simulation" to it, or perhaps it felt more like the depths of the layers of a program, I had the idea/feeling that maybe Jesus was hacked into our lower plane from a much higher one. 

 

Say if you or I made a game like lemmings. It would be nigh on impossible for someone on our relative higher level to communicate anything of meaning to the lemmings within. Our best bet would be to program in another lemming that held some of our higher ideas with the hope it could communicate them.

 

All very absurd and silly stuff until you really embrace the paradoxical absurdity of anything existing at all. This is all vague ideas, I don't hold onto anything as absolute. 

 

Sorry to hijack your thread with "religion" but I think it's possible that religious texts hold a key, like a needle in a haystack with the rest of the stack being misdirection. 

 

This quote from the gospel of Thomas (nag hammadi Gnostic) hits home to me on how unsettling peering inwards has been. 

 

Jesus says:

(1) “The one who seeks should not cease seeking until he finds.
(2) And when he finds, he will be dismayed.
(3) And when he is dismayed, he will be astonished.
(4) And he will be king over the All.”
 
another translation:
 

1 And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

2 Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will rule over all."

 

 

The being dismayed/disturbed is interesting. One would think from a glance that if there was any form of salvation that it would be all sunshine and rainbows! Apparently not.. 

Edited by Pedro99

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@Pedro99 its not bad to talk about scripture as a reference point of thought here i guess. Kabbalah is Jewish mysticism so id be a hypocrite to be an ass ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and scriptures often do hold truth. Whether we understand them truely or not is the thing.

 

When we look inward though, we may find different kinds of experience. Some just find the third eye (our visual ego point in the head) and see a bright as fuck flash of white light. Atleast that happened to me once while meditating. But then theres looking inward towards the levels of other layers of ourselves, such as emotions, the truth of how we think about ourselves, our inadequacy and short comings.

 

the Hindus say that looking inward we find ourselves. We find the Self.. the Atman. Atman is Brahma. Atman/Brahma is pure consciousness. And turiya is the samadhi of pure consciousness. Turiya/samadhi is bliss... others describe the Self as peace.. even God as peace... but hey.. who is looking and how they are looking makes a difference.. if you look into the void and have a negative energy, youd probably think “this is boring and pointless.... fuck it im going to leave this state.” but if you look into the void in a happy state youd probably think “man this state of consciousness is quite interesting... im conscious, but of nothing at all.. except me.. ill stay here and see if something happens.” And being that you are happy, youll probably start to feel yourself in joy. And to enter the first jhana (Buddhist samadhis) you direct your (trained) attention to a pleasant sensation in your body. And it grows and you “explode” into bliss. So if you enter the void and are happy, sensing only yourself, in theory your happiness will grow into FULL euphoria. 
 

Christianity is very....... its a fucking guilt trip (pun intended) of a religion if you ask me. I dont believe it to be truth. All Abrahamic religions are fear and guilt and control it seems.


So what im getting at is, maybe through the seeking (seeking is often seeking the self or inner divinity, “The seeker is the sought!”) Jesus was quoted saying, was just a part of his system of finding the truth.
 

Looking deeply within can mean a lot of things. Maybe he was just speaking on psychological terms. Like if you look at yourself with objectivity, and are Christian, you could think of all kinds of negative shit (which makes you want to seek more) such as “I only want to know God because he will protect me, im selfish, i dont truely love my creator”

as for what ruling over the all means, i dont know what it means. But “The All” is a hermetic reference for the mind that created reality. Reality is the all. And their belief in “Mentalism” states that Gods mind is “The All”

 

The forces/mechanisms/systems within ourselves (all layers) reflect outwardly. The microcosm is reflected in the macrocosm. “As above, so below, as below, so above”.

 

lol i never played lemmings though, i Wikipedia’d it and i couldnt really understand the gameplay.

 

Edit: tell me more about this meditation experience though

 

Edit 2: i just read up on the stuff about Thomas writting about what Jesus said. After the marvelling stage of seeking, comes rest. Rest with the Lord in the sense of “united with him, and him in you”... in biblical terms the wicked never enter Gods rest. And the gnostics believe that the rest is the true salvation..... hm.. sounds like being in eternal samadhi. Samadhi at its highest level (Nirvikalpa) is union with God. And the rest is described as “from now on” meaning forever. Sounds like “sahaja samadhi”. But nirvana is said to be the most blissful.. but most people never want to return from nirvana. Samadhis are distinguished from nirvana.. nirvana is described as the end of all concepts. 
but just like the scriptures, the true meanings have been Chinese whispered and even purposely twisted. So nirvana might just be a samadhi/union with God. And that samadhi is what they’re referring to as “rest”.

i say this also because i have read of a master of yoga describing samadhi as “one second in samadhi is equal to 10,000 years of deeply restful sleep”.

Edited by Meditator

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@fyzygy i didnt see your post until just now.

 

i forgot about that (philosophers saying the absolute is unspeakable). Even the Kabbalistic masters said this.. they say entering the higher spiritual realms such as atziluth (where all polar opposites paradoxically become one, such as intensity and dullness become one. Pain and pleasure become one, love and hate..) is completely and utterly impossible to describe with language. Furthermore, upon realising oneness with God they describe his nature as “Love” and beyond that there’s absolutely NO way to articulate a description with mere language what its like to be at one.. 

lol talking metaphysical philosophy must include mysticism as a reference point it seems.

 

describing consciousness to a computer generated chat bot.. AI cannot comprehend consciousness. Because to comprehend a reality such as consciousness, you have to experience it. The comprehension is experience. Experiencing experience itself. Which AI cannot do since its mind is fully physical, whereas human mind is part physical part energetic (mind consciousness and life). 
food for thought..

Edited by Meditator

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