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SS SA Tersheckii not?

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I recently acquired a cutting of what is being called the South Australian Short-spined Tersheckii. I can't see how this plant is a tersheckii at all it's just so skinny in comparison but the mouthful of a name might stick! I do think it is one of the best finds for a while though, it's a beauty.

 

I had never seen this plant close up until i received a cutting.

 

In the witches market in Chiclayo on the north central andean coast of peru I had come across san pedro being sold there for purposes of divination; among the standard near-spineless pachanoi forms there was a multi-ribbed but 'skinny' san pedro that always has piqued my interest as being unique. I never saw anything like it elsewhere.

 

I don't think these plants are the same, but there is a decided similarity which I was surprised to discover.

 

 

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It's a gorgeous, gorgeous plant. I would love to know more about what it's lineage might be also.

 

Evil Genius has said pretty recently that he thinks it fits with the name Validus.

 

I got mine with the name SA SS tersch on it from the eBay seller.

 

I did get to chat to someone who visited the mother plant in SA, and he said the owner mentioned the plant was put on the property by his mother 80 years ago, which would place the timeline for it being planted in SA at about 1935. He said the owder couldn't tell him anything else about where it came from or if his mother grew it from seed or cutting.

 

Also, these pics were on Trouts website  and are also from Chiclayo, I saw them quite some time ago in my many searches of the net for cactus related things. They always stuck with me as they're pretty different looking cuts.

 

Chiclayo witches market trichocerus cactus (Trout - google) (Copy) smut.jpg   Chiclayo witches market trichocerus cactus #2 (Trout - google).jpg

 

Also, great news, I have had a few flowers on my SA SS tersch this year so will have a bunch of hybrids with it in the parentage in the next 1-2 months as they ripen up and I clean the seeds.

 

P1272344 SA SS Tersch with 3 fruits 27-01-2017 (resized Copy).JPG

 

Here it is to the right of a thin-ish cutting from a "normal" tersch.

 

P1071801 SA SS Tersch (resized Copy).jpg

 

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80 years!

 

That's awesome. That's back in the days you could bring cuttings into the country. It's amazing to think cactus was being shipped internationally by boat!!

 

The tends toward the possibility of it being a direct import.

 

In your bottom pic, i do not think either of them are tersheckii despite them being nice plants. Tersheckii are just so fat I can't see how you would get a pure 'skinny' one without it actually not being one, lol.

 

There is nothing even remotely like tersheckii or any of the fat varieties anywhere I went in Peru, in the wild and in garden, coast, highlands, it's all pachanoi/peru, so I also do not think the plant in the witches market is tersheckii either.

 

I wish I had had the foresight back in the day to ask if that particular plant had some particular curative properties that normal pachanoi did not have, since other species of cactus (globular) were sold for purposes of magic, love spells and so on.

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Yeah, I think the timeline of 80 years sits pretty well with when Fields brought in his plants here from South America too, so maybe there's some connection there, (helps with the possible validus link??), as I can't imagine there were heaps and heaps of people in Australia importing cactuses back in the 30's. It's a pity the current owner and son of the lady who planted them doesn't know more about where they came from. But he is definitely not a passionate cactus man himself so it's not altogether surprising. It's pretty much just a good thing he never removed the plants from his property so we can enjoy them now. 

 

In regards to the tersch cut sitting next to my SA SS I posted at the very end of my reply above, I'm pretty sure it's a proper terscheckii, my cut is just a very thin one from a large plant that was cut and re-grew. I've seen the fatter cuts of the same clone in person as well as the stump and they are definitely a good amount fatter than mine and the SA SS. Think of it like this, other plants that are large and then chopped down and moved result in new growth that's thinner until they get established again. Pretty sure that's all the issue is with my thinner cut. I have pics of a friends plant that is the same clone, but I won't post it as the images are his. 

 

Maybe if we're super lucky someone else may have noticed plants that look similar on their travels to South America and they'll chime in here too. 

 

This seems like the place to put pics of the plant, so I'll put a few up. 

 

In flower

 

PC020945 (Copy) smut SA SS Tersch flowers.JPG   PC020941 SA SS tersch flower crop (resized Copy).jpg

 

A pup I split in half and grafted to 2 pieces of PC. (base grafted upside down)

 

Older pics - PA270433 SA SS Tersch graft to PC (resized Copy).JPG   P5143628 SA SS Tersch graft to PC (resized Copy).JPG   PA014997 SA SS Tersch graft to PC (resized Copy).JPG    - Newer pics   P2112581 SA SS Tersch graft to PC (resized Copy).JPG   P2112582 SA SS Tersch graft to PC (resized Copy).JPG

 

And a pic of a big one that I stumbled across. 

 

PC221272 SA SS Tersch (resized Copy).JPG

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In your bottom pic, i do not think either of them are tersheckii despite them being nice plants. Tersheckii are just so fat I can't see how you would get a pure 'skinny' one without it actually not being one, lol.

 

There is nothing even remotely like tersheckii or any of the fat varieties anywhere I went in Peru, in the wild and in garden, coast, highlands, it's all pachanoi/peru, so I also do not think the plant in the witches market is tersheckii either.

 

I have 1 plant looks very much like that thinnish terscheckii, (a)

another 1 that is identical (B)

and yet another 1 one similar but the spines point up not down ©

 

one (a) gallery_14443_734_234202.jpg was labelled terscheckii from an older German ebayer ..and EG said it was some kind of terscheckii but possibly an intermediate 'tween terscheckii and taquimbalensis when I just couldn't accept it as a terscheckii - lol

so I eventually labelled it a taquimbo for not being terschey enough ..2017-02-28 01.22.04.jpg

 

...but it looks more like my werdermannianus © gallery_14443_734_46766.jpg than a terscheckii or taquimbo

(from another older German ebayer) than any of my other terscheckiis ""but the spines point up not down""2017-02-28 01.22.16.jpg

 

the other 'identical' 1 (B) gallery_14443_734_452056.jpg was from Slice/Ogun and he called it " a rare form of terscheckii from Bolivia" ,,... so I was also of the same mind Micromegas as what you're saying prior to a flavour of Slice's expertise in the field, which at first I couldn't see, until spending good time with the plant every day since ..... and feel a strong incline pull to think of them as just that ... a rare form of terscheckii from Bolivia each time I clock one..2017-02-28 01.22.41.jpg

 

am I wrong or do you think there could be more to it? ..

 

Also I kinda feel the "rare Bolivian terscheckii" will somehow be closer to validus down to geography perhaps?

or if not just for wishful thinking,.. be a validus/valida intermediate with terscheckii or taquimbo..

 

anyhow , sorry to digress from the feature plant which I cant wait to grow hybrid seed from !!!! *v excited*

 

the SA SS is one of the very sexiest cacti I keep seeing on this forum ,.. there's an ace lady SABber with one in the galleries i think trixyhobbits (or something like that- sorry if I got it wrong)  was the SABber growing quite a mighty fine specimen ,... 

 

also reminds me of  a plant i keep seeing as terscheckii X pachanoi

and one I saw once as terscheckii X psycho0...

 

anything looking validacious always draws my attention I guess...

 

Do you think Peruvians and Bolivians might've traded cacti at some point?

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Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ
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Those market pics are great!

 

Beautiful plants TH, the werdermannius is magnificent.

 

Wonder who named the plant short spine terschekii, was it the guy selling cuts on eBay a few years back or did someone name this plant previously............

 

Some pics below comparing the 'SA short spine" with two other nice fat plants that are there, these 2 plants are much smaller than the 'SA short spine', either planted later, had a hard life or slower growers perhaps.

All the cactus there appear to be the same age, could these 2 other small plants be remnants of a much bigger plant that may have fallen down or cut down etc and then a few tips from the plant re planted......... 

There are 2 large perus there also that resemble rosei's, their spines are bit different from the rosei's I got from Fields.

The big fat chiloensis there is more like a pasacana, so maybe that plant is a hybrid........

 

 

'SA short spine' (not)

IMG_6152.jpg   IMG_6153.jpg   IMG_6154.jpg

 

 

x2, 1 meter tips from the two small plants

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Tip 1 on the left

IMG_6141.jpg   IMG_6142.jpg   IMG_6146.jpg   IMG_6148.jpg   IMG_6149.jpg

 

 

Tip 2 on the right

IMG_6143.jpg   IMG_6144.jpg   IMG_6147.jpg   IMG_6150.jpg   IMG_6151.jpg

 

 

 

Perhaps these pics can help establish that they are Validus, Terschekii or hybrids......

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Edited by spooge
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The story I got was the ones you've called "tip 1" and "tip 2", Spooge, which have the more robust spines, were cuttings planted by the current owner and were taken directly off of the SA SS tersch mother plant which is nearby. It's strange that they have larger and thicker spines than the mother plant displays, maybe it's due to more sun and less water in that particular spot, if they really are the same clone as the owners comments suggest they are. 

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Do you think Peruvians and Bolivians might've traded cacti at some point? 

They traded iconography. Viracocha is on a spectrum of development from the chavin staff god.

 

but from araequipa to La Paz nothing but standard cuzco/peru/shoenii then terks, pasacanas then bridgessii. only thing in witches markets in la paz was bridgessii. but that was not an exhaustive search. if they traded, why not pachs growing today in La Paz?

 

i suspect the difference between pach, terk and bridgessii led to fine-scale differences in cultural development in art and religion. tihuanaco deities look right off at the horizon, chavin deities are looking right at you, huari intermediate.

 

good posts about the SS all, very interesting if the ones you have spooge that look different were from the SS. be interesting to see what they do for us all under cultivation.

 

thunder i reckon any skinny 'rare form' is a hybrid of some kind. my thoughts are that a 'skinny' terk is a hybrid, not pure, because they should be massive in original form.

 

zed re: cuts being skinny and then getting fat, yes absolutely. but that one you have, i think, will not get significantly fatter. i lump that in with werdermannianus from adelaide bot gardens.

 

i'm a total hack at ID. head strong, probably wrong.

 

to look for the original SS if it came from Peru i'd say either a shaman grew a hyrid on the coast where mesa work is abundant, or was traded down from huancabamba, where the 'best' magical cactus come from they say and probably where chiclayo plants are sourced. but i only saw a few spineless pach in huancabamba when i went there but we're going way back now, 2007, i wasn't looking closely.

 

spine number is linked to magic, might have selectively bred a multi-ribbed plant for some process of divination. massive speculation but why not!

 

 

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zed re: cuts being skinny and then getting fat, yes absolutely. but that one you have, i think, will not get significantly fatter. i lump that in with werdermannianus from adelaide bot gardens.

 

I won't go into this one too much as it's off topic for this thread. But that plant does get a lot fatter than the piece of it I own. I have been to the ABG and checked out their werd a number of times, and I'm also lucky enough to own an ABG werd clone as I got it from an employee of the gardens a couple of years ago. And even my thin "tersch" is fatter than the ABG werd. If my tersch is a werd that'd be cool, but if it does line up with werd, (isn't that an invalid name anyway?), it's certainly one of the fatter ones. Also, I digress even further, but ABG werd has to actually be a taquimbalensis or tacaquirensis. 

 

I can also be headstrong with IDs, but I am certainly not unwilling to be more informed or to change my mind/labels if presented with better evidence for something. 

 

Sorry for being off topic for this thread, I shouldn't have posted that picture with the other plant in it! Apologies!

 

 

And yes, it'll be really interesting to see what the SA SS tersch plants do in other peoples collections. Also very much looking forward to what hybrids with it in their parentage look like. :) 

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The story I got was the ones you've called "tip 1" and "tip 2", Spooge, which have the more robust spines, were cuttings planted by the current owner and were taken directly off of the SA SS tersch mother plant which is nearby. It's strange that they have larger and thicker spines than the mother plant displays, maybe it's due to more sun and less water in that particular spot, if they really are the same clone as the owners comments suggest they are. 

 

I heard the same story from a guy that went to the garden before me.

The owner of the garden was reluctant to let tip 1 and tip 2 go. The ss is about 20 meters from where tip 1 and tip 2 were growing, both areas get full sun.

Theres 3 or 4 different cactus plants growing with the ss, a chance then maybe tip 1 and tip 2 were a different plant growing amongst them all.

The areoles on the huge ss plant at the property are uniform from the base of the plant to the tips, no areole or spine difference at all.

The areoles of the ss and the two tips are different I think.

Ive had the ss in my garden for a few years now, originally from the eBay seller, looks nothing like these 2 new tips to me. The 2 new tips are much more Validus like than any terschekii I've got or that I've seen at Dawson's.

 

crossed the ss with yowie last season, repotted the seedlings a few days ago.

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in my opinion theres no way "tip1" and "tip2" are from the same sa ss mother plant. if anything the tip1 and 2 get less sun as there is a shade tree over them slightly. the mother plant is full bearing sun.

this pic is the 2 tips on the left, not sure which is 1 or 2, and 2 sa ss tips on the right.

I  know growing conditions affect growth greatly but im not at all convinced this is the case here.

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I think its worth mentioning also... I read somewhere that dawson and gill had about 2000 different plants in their heyday, plus seeds, so I wouldn't focus just on fields. dawsons was started in the 30's too. Dawsons also operated as a quarantine station at some point along the way so who knows how many plants may have passed through their hands.

Granted these plants here would have been from very early on.

Edited by godless
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Wow, I count myself very lucky to have gotten a small piece of that other short spined plant with more robust spination then, especially if you guys took four 1m tips from it. I'll have to try crossing it with the "SA SS tersch" when it flowers, as it this one has just started to push out some fuzz. That would make for a very cool cross. :) 

 

P3013025 SA SS Tersch - other plant (resized Copy).jpg

 

I certainly wouldn't be surprised either if the owner was mistaken and they are genetically different plants. It does look very different in some respects. Maybe from the same seed batch though?? The areoles are very similarly spaced and both plants also have very oval shaped areoles. 

 

I also have some hybrids of the SA SS going from last year in 10cm pots. 

 

SA SS tersch X Scop -   P3013029 SA SS Tersch X scop (resized Copy).jpg

 

SA SS Tersch X Super Pedro, which are a bit more advanced than the scop cross above  -  P3013028 SA SS Tersch X Super Pedro (resized Copy).jpg   P3013027 SA SS Tersch X Super Pedro (resized Copy).jpg 

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we were liberal with the cuts and courteous with the request, theres very decent stumps left that will pup strongly I think.

in so many words I said to him I know you've only got a couple of these so if you wanna hang onto them that's fine, but wed love to take them if we can, he said yes.

 

I drove 650km one way without knowing exactly where I was going, then spent 2 hours driving around, knocked on a few doors, then spent 5 hours in 40 degree heat waiting for him to get home, then spent the night in a motel and did it the next morning.

so I feel I deserved what I got, it was the mission of a lifetime and certainly the score of a lifetime too!

give me say 5 years and I might have a few pups to share, im undecided yet whether to cut and propagate or plant as one.

 

oh yeah, by the time we were done it was 46 degrees, I had a swim.

Edited by godless
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I think godless's post settles it, those two are not the same plant. that is also quite interesting how much more like the one on the left is starting to look like validus. if that was called SA SS Validus that would be more appropriate than calling the other one SA SS terk!

 

so the verdict is that these are grown from seed in Australia, not imported as cuttings?

 

what about validus?

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SA ss Validus +1

 

the Fields Validus were not imported, they were seed grown

the place with the ss terschekii has plants that are as old as Fields and maybe Dawson's??

does any one know if the Dawson's plants were seed grown or imported?

Edited by spooge
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ok so in my pic...going on spooges names, "tip1" is on the left, and "tip2" is on the right. which one are we calling validus/valida?

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I don't think we'll ever get a solid answer on that micromegas, who knows?

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ok so in my pic...going on spooges names, "tip1" is on the left, and "tip2" is on the right. which one are we calling validus/valida?

 

Prob tentatively calling both tip 1 and tip 2 Validus (ish) for the moment.......

 

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yes, both, more so tip 1 on left in godless's pic if they are not the same, and especially in zed's plump rooted version there is a lot of validus in there aesthetically speaking if not genetics. but what if from the same bunch of seeds as the Field's validus!

 

Then of course the question whether my validus, which was collected from a suburban house in adelaide (demolished) is the same as Fields, i.e. is a direct clone or a seed grown plant. that would be a different topic.

 

re: whether the sa ss terk (i'll use the name for now haha!) is a imported cutting or seed grown goes back to the original post - a plant in chiclayo witches market that is remarkably similar!

 

yes there is much we will never know, until maybe cactus genetic bar-code device!

 

 

Edited by Micromegas
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re: whether the sa ss terk (i'll use the name for now haha!) is a imported cutting or seed grown goes back to the original post - a plant in chiclayo witches market that is remarkably similar!

 

 

just my opinion...I reckon your onto something there.

 

so should we rename the SA SS terscheckii as a Validus? Or leave it as it is for continuity?

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Personally I dont think the the Sa SS Terscheckii should be labeled a Validus and should not even really be labeled a Terscheckii? The other two cuts you lads are showing do look different though? 

My main line of thinking here is that.... and correct me if i'm wrong? we all agree that a Validus is a skinny Terscheckii? or at the very least in the tersckeckii family?

In that Validus clearly has a Terscheckii flower.

The Sa SS Terscheckii flower is nothing like a terscheckii flower at all? It will be interesting to see how these other cuts flower?

I think its more than plausible that the sa ss tersck has terscheckii or fatty in its heritage but has not taken the flower type. 

I would vote to keep the original SA SS terscheckii label for continuity and wait to see how how those other two cuts flower?

I truly believe the flower is one of the most valuable tools when trying identify cactus.

Just my thoughts......

 

 

 

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Sorry also like to add that im sure i remember Robert saying that Ralph Fields (his dad)raised a fare few valida plants from the original valida seeds he recieved from Friedrich Ritters sister( the pen pal in europe where the original Val seeds come from).

From memory the story goes they kept two and the rest were sold off to collectors around Oz.

These are the two we know and love today.... The shed and the garden Vals .

I believe the shed was placed in that spot to survive the winter and it put roots down and thats where it stayed.

All these plants came from one pod.

So i would guess that a few of the plants that they sold would have made it through until this time. 

There is a skinny terscheckii at cc that fits all this time line and looks incredibly like the other vals but not the same in my opinion? It even does the no pollen like the other two vals? Jim had always said that he got it from Robert... But the last time i went down he said he thinks it might have come from a collection that his father had purchased many years ago. I cant remember the collectors name but i remember jim saying that he would have been around in Ralphs hay day?

Just more food for thought?

 

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I recently acquired a cutting of what is being called the South Australian Short-spined Tersheckii. I can't see how this plant is a tersheckii at all it's just so skinny in comparison but the mouthful of a name might stick! I do think it is one of the best finds for a while though, it's a beauty.

 

I had never seen this plant close up until i received a cutting.

 

In the witches market in Chiclayo on the north central andean coast of peru I had come across san pedro being sold there for purposes of divination; among the standard near-spineless pachanoi forms there was a multi-ribbed but 'skinny' san pedro that always has piqued my interest as being unique. I never saw anything like it elsewhere.

 

I don't think these plants are the same, but there is a decided similarity which I was surprised to discover.

 

 

SASS.png

3.jpg

 

Hey mate, that second photo in this thread is Browningia pilleifera. They are very similar to a Trichocereus and some truly majestic plants. Their flowers and overall shape later on is different. Unfortunately they are really rare and I´ve been chasing them for years.

18497607573_41da477420.jpg

 

Here is a Browningia candelaris, which is very similar when you see it on the market too. 

Browningia-candelaris.jpg

 

I am pretty sure that the South Australian T. terscheckii belongs into the greater context of T. validus, which is probably just a Bolivian version of Trichocereus terscheckii, or at least a Bolivian intermediate involving Trichocereus terscheckii. 

The flower definitely indicates a connection to T. terscheckii and I think that there are some clear similarities to T. validus as well. In the greater picture, there just aren´t that many other alternatives. I think everybody agrees that it´s certainly a relative or regional form of T. terscheckii, but it would be very interesting to see some DNA tests just to look a little bit closer. 

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Hey @zed240

I think this thread needs some pictures.

You would have the most pictures of sa ss terscheckii flower that i know of. Any chance you could post a few up mate? 

I have a shed valida flower opening in the next week so i will take some photos of that from every different angle. Would be good to compare??

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