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Evil Genius

Comparison Trichocereus Riomizquensis & PC Pachanoi

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Comparison Trichocereus Riomizquensis & PC Pachanoi

Hi Guys, I am pretty sure that the PC Trichocereus Pachanoi is actually what Friedrich Ritter described as Trichocereus Riomizquensis FR856. This type grows around Chuyllas near the Rio Mizque and as far as I am concerned, it is absolutely identical with the PC pachanoi. Friedrich Ritter sold seed of Trichocereus Riomizquensis throughout the world, what makes it very possible that most of the plants that we call PC were grown from his FR856 seed. Of course there is no way to actually prove it but I am 100% convinced that this is the case. Trichocereus Riomizquensis is no longer an accepted species and those plants are simply called "Trichocereus Pachanoi" these days. Now, I´ll add two pics. The b/w pic shows the FR856 while the other shows a PC Pachanoi. Pic is from Prier. Now, if that is actually the case, not every specimen of the PC is a clone.If all those plants were grown from the same FR856 seeds, the "PC Pachanois" of the world are actually related but not genetically identical. While some of them cannot mate with each other, some other plants known as PC Pachanoi CAN. Would love to hear your breeding experiences so let me know if you were able to pollinate your PC´s with pollen of someone elses PC. But that would only work it´s not a cutting from the same plant in your garden.

Trichocereus Riomizquensis

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Trichocereus Pachanoi PC (Pic: Prier)

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Well yeah, please leave out anything about their chemical profile out of this discussion. But this is really interesting and I personally am really sure that the two are synonymous. I also think that Michael had the same impression recently, which is really cool because that means that this is not a brain fart.

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Edited by Evil Genius
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If PC turned out not to be a clone rather siblings then they're pretty consistent in their looks. If that's the case, could it be that this isolated population wasn't hybridized?

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Certainly not a brain fart. Here's my own T. riomizquensis from NMCR which I had for quite some time before Sacred Succulents had it.

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~Michael~

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This would make it a Bolivian species, right? Makes sense then that it shows certain traits of other Bolivian species, if it's more closely related to them instead of those from Peru.

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I believe that most if not all of the PC´s we encounter are offspring from the same collection, which was made by Friedrich Ritter made and labeled as FR856. That would not make them clones but it would mean that they´d be genetically close to each other. Like, from the same seed pod and hence relatively consistent in their appearance. Because of that, it should actually be possible to cross some of them with each other. But that doesn´t mean there can´t be clones, which would be genetically identical.

Michael, yes, very similar to what is known as the PC. And I don´t remember any other Pachanoi collection that has a similar areole shape as those two types. That´s really cool. Thanks for posting them, Michael. Do you know where the NMCR got their seeds from? Like, is it possible they grew seeds from Ritter and sold their offspring? Or did they resell seed they bought from local collectors. But even if the NMCR Riomizquensis seed came from another collection at the Rio Mizque (and not from the FR856 collection), it´s still a good indicator that the whole Riomizquensis population is relatively consistent in it´s looks.

Edited by Evil Genius

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Berengar, for more info search my posts for "Rio Mizque." I believe I was first to propose the possible relationship between T. riomizquensis and the PC.

EG, here's what the label says regarding my NMCR plant.

"T. riomizquensis, RIV S1710 sg, Bolivia, Rio Mizque"

I'm not sure where NMCR got it, and can't remember who "RIV" is, but maybe someone knows.

Here's a shot of K. Trout's T. riomizquensis.

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~Michael~

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do you think they are the same as the bolivian pachanoi's featured on keeper trout's site, replete with white hairs and all?

Cochabamba_Dani_06.jpg

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This is very interesting stuff guys. I know I'm new here but have been into trichs for about a year now, reading nonstop on here and other sites. Since I'm in the US I have access to lots of PC pachanoi and have several of them growing right now. If I can get two of them to flower at the same time I will try to pollinate them by hand and see if they are clones or merely close relatives.

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DiscoStu, the plants in that photo (of which I shared with Trout following my contact with the photographer) look more like a T. scopulicola variety in my opinion, but that doesn't mean that the PC isn't closer in relationship though than say to the Peruvian T. pachanoi. It is interesting to note that both the Ritter T. riomizquensis and that in this photo of plants in Cochabamba (and plants in all the other photos I've collected from the same area) appear to lack spines, not that they do, it's just that they are not as long as those on the PC or the NMCR T. Riomizquensis, and are more like T. scopulicola. I think the Cochabamba plants are likely along the lines of Ritter's T. riomizquensis, but that the PC and the NMCR plant aren't quite the same. The NMCR plant and the PC also appear to have a bit more similarity in rib formation to T. bridgesii. I wonder what you might get if you crossed the Cochabamba plant with a T. bridgesii? I've long thought that the PC bears some intermediary features of T. bridgesii and T. scopulicola.

~Michael~

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Let's cross aussie PC with US PC, and see if we get fertile seeds. Who's up for some Aussie PC pollen.

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I'm up for it, how long does it stay fertile? In a few months i should have some flowers going on, can't make any promises though but last year they flowered and they were just rooting at that time so I'm hoping for gobs of flower buds this year but probably not until august or september.

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Let's cross aussie PC with US PC, and see if we get fertile seeds. Who's up for some Aussie PC pollen.

next day air maybe.....first hand experience shipping & receiving viable pollen to & from Australia just aint happening.....

5 pc flowers have opened so far this season, was only enthused to pollinate one of them.

What I'd like to know from all the back n forth discussion on pc being the same as riomizquensis or pc is descendant from bridgesii and or scopulicola is where did pc acquire the abnormally largish sized flowers? PC's flowers are significantly much larger than any other trich

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What I'd like to know from all the back n forth discussion on pc being the same as riomizquensis or pc is descendant from bridgesii and or scopulicola is where did pc acquire the abnormally largish sized flowers? PC's flowers are significantly much larger than any other trich

Interesting question, but please say a bit more about the flower size differences amongst the species. I'd also love to hear your thoughts about the relationship of these four plants.

~Michael~

Edit for sentence structure.

Edited by M S Smith

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next day air maybe.....first hand experience shipping & receiving viable pollen to & from Australia just aint happening.....

5 pc flowers have opened so far this season, was only enthused to pollinate one of them.

What I'd like to know from all the back n forth discussion on pc being the same as riomizquensis or pc is descendant from bridgesii and or scopulicola is where did pc acquire the abnormally largish sized flowers? PC's flowers are significantly much larger than any other trich

I found Psycho0 to have the largest flowers I have come across so far. Both in diameter and length. Much larger than my PC's.

[edit] - also, I reckon Master B's method of sending pollen may make it stay viable for the postage time overseas. He must have shaken a bunch of pollen out of the flower and collected it. He then dried it and always stored it with a desiccant packet in a small zip lock bag. (after I received it I kept it in the freezer). I had amazing results with his pollen that had been collected and stored like that.

Maybe keeping the pollen just as "dust" in a bag and not on any cotton buds or Q-tips might help it to make the long journey with some retained viability. It's worth trying like that I think.

Edited by zed240
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It makes sense Evil, also considering the massive propagation, it seems by seed. Is it frequent in European horticulture? And in the US / AU which percentage of the pachanoi scene is PC?

Edited by Ogun
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does anyone have photos of the Australian PC ?

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The PC in the States appears to be a single clone propagated for the horticultural trade. That's not to say there may not be other PC from the same original source, just that it looks as though the PC stateside is a single clone, or at least had been for over 50 years. Over the last decade or more, particularly due to Sacred Succulents, there are lots of hybrids with the PC (simply considered T. pachanoi by SS), and which when grown out can be quite indistinguishable from the PC. The same hybrid issue seems to be the case in Australia as well, though SS isn't responsible for them, and in fact they may go much further back in time than in the States. It would be quite easy to regard a PC hybrid as as the original clone, but if these are crossed with even reputable original PC it might be easy to think there isn't a single PC in the trade, but rather multiple strains of it when in fact there may not be. I'm all for crosses and enjoy the increased variation in growth habit, but with ever more crosses identification as reputable species is going to become much more difficult over time.

~Michael~

Edited by M S Smith
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I believe that most if not all of the PC´s we encounter are offspring from the same collection, which was made by Friedrich Ritter made and labeled as FR856. That would not make them clones but it would mean that they´d be genetically close to each other. Like, from the same seed pod and hence relatively consistent in their appearance. Because of that, it should actually be possible to cross some of them with each other. But that doesn´t mean there can´t be clones, which would be genetically identical.

Michael, yes, very similar to what is known as the PC. And I don´t remember any other Pachanoi collection that has a similar areole shape as those two types. That´s really cool. Thanks for posting them, Michael. Do you know where the NMCR got their seeds from? Like, is it possible they grew seeds from Ritter and sold their offspring? Or did they resell seed they bought from local collectors. But even if the NMCR Riomizquensis seed came from another collection at the Rio Mizque (and not from the FR856 collection), it´s still a good indicator that the whole Riomizquensis population is relatively consistent in it´s looks.

We've been doing research in the US between a couple of us and have come to the same conclusion that there are many forms of PC pach floating around. As far as the t. Rio's I have 2 samples, 1 looks identicle too MS Smiths, and 1 is similar with just a lil longer spines. In no way do either look PC though as far as US PC standards.

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As far as the t. Rio's I have 2 samples, 1 looks identicle too MS Smiths, and 1 is similar with just a lil longer spines. In no way do either look PC though as far as US PC standards.

show us pics so we can see what you see

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does anyone have photos of the Australian PC ?

is there even an "australian pc"? there's fields pach which looks pc like but has black haired flowers, and there's several hybrid lookalikes that aren't as well,

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We've been doing research in the US between a couple of us and have come to the same conclusion that there are many forms of PC pach floating around. As far as the t. Rio's I have 2 samples, 1 looks identicle too MS Smiths, and 1 is similar with just a lil longer spines. In no way do either look PC though as far as US PC standards.

I'm interested. How was you all's "research" conducted so as to reach the "conclusion" that there are "many forms" of the PC? How was it determined they were genetically distinct and not a single clone? Photos of at least a few of them would be nice too. As I implied above, unless one can discount plants that simply look like the PC from the widespread original which is well known to be unable to cross one can't discount more recent PC hybrids that can raise serious question about any research conclusions. Beliefs and conclusions are two different things unless the latter is supported by valid data. Without this data any claim of the validity of ones conclusions can easily fall on deaf ears. There are a great many unknowns which is why I like to use qualifiers regarding almost every deserving statement about my more hypothetical positions.

As for the T. riomizquensis you said looks "identical" to mine I'm at a loss to understand how you can then say that it "in no way" looks like the PC as it clearly looks more like the PC than any other plant I am aware of with the exception of some known hybrids of the PC.

For shits and giggles check out this PC on the left in comparison to the SS T. pachanoi x SS02 on the right.

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Here's the T. riomizquensis I grew from French Cactus and Succulent Society seed. Possibly mislabeled or a hybrid I suppose. Pretty plant that still needs to mature a bit.

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~Michael~

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Edited by M S Smith
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is there even an "australian pc"? there's fields pach which looks pc like but has black haired flowers, and there's several hybrid lookalikes that aren't as well,

Fields looks pretty different to the Aus PC to me. Shorter spines, different looking areoles and closer space between the areoles. And the black haired flowers, like you said.

There seems to be a "PC" in Australia that also has the white flower hairs. I have not tried to cross pollinate all the "PC" looking plants I'm aware of in Australia obvciously. But I will be trying to cross a few plants I suspect might be the same clone as each other that happen to look like what I consider to be an Aus "PC".

Fields pach

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Aust PC" V Super Pedro (this Super ped is in a pot so is normally fatter)

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Aust "PC" flower hairs

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No problem, we got as many suspected PC cuttings as possible, then grew them all side by side in exact conditions. You could obviously see some were the same, but then you could obviously see some were different, and had bigger rib dropping, different spine colors, just slight little differences. We had some that looked like the SS hybrid to ones that just screamed PC and the things look like the back of an alligator. By no means are we botanist or scientist, just a theory we had and as much testing as possible. Also most of the PC varieties would get these lil bug bites about 2 inches down from the top. Yet almost none of my CV's got them. I'll try to grab you some pics, I have a few I think would show the big differences.

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Hey man, thanks for the welcome response, I was a little worried after reading the post from last night this morning and thought it might have been a little harsh. That wasn't intended, it's just the way my weird brain presents its fancy. I look forward to you sharing your insights.

~Michael~

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An old picture of long spines on old growth of PC type pachanoi. Prob. about an inch the top one.

gallery_239_3_105028.jpg

Edited by gerbil
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