Trichocereus peruvianus crest/monster discussion

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

That's how I got mine too micoz. It's hilarious how they cashed out in that crest and still despise trich collectors. Wouldn't surprise me if it was Cuzco, don't think they'd sell as many as they did if it was.

Mine will also stay named peruvianus as I can trace its history this way, changing it now would even confuse me and the above stories of its origins!

[mutant]

I call it peruvianus and i will continue to call it peruvianus because thats what it came labelled as and everyone knows it as peruvianus, to now call it cuzco would create more confusion i think.

WHAT?!?!

well I cant disagree more if you are indeed spreading the cactus. Why not call it hammiltons crest, if you know its not a peruvianus but rather a cuzco... ?

if you keep it to yourself, you might as well call it Esmeralda or Jigsaw or Freddy Krugger.

We know now that this kind of shit has led to decades of US oriented confusion about several clones. Happy to not have been around in that dark ages of cactus collecting.... This kind of behaviour (keeping, copying, spreading wrong names) is only good for irresponsible sellers and trichocereus OCDers . And OCD is a neurosis, so its usually not good.

I find it understandable for people to keep the label the cactus came with if its wrong, if only for the history.. and to be able to telling the story of how people sell shit by wrong names.... But not adding the right one?

Keeping the wrong one knowing its wrong? WTF?

Well I should not be amazed by this, the world is full of stupid behaviours, but I couldnt imagine I could hear that in such a specialized forum in which we are supposed to care about the real taxonomy behind tha names.. Well, apparently not ...

Me and zelly are keeping the flag of the science high the rest of you are just amateurs

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

But who's saying it actually IS a Cuzco? I mean full respect man but this is one thread! When you find a DNA sequencer and run the tests (providing you find authentic pure genes to begin with) then I'll change all my labels to whatever you say! I'm happy knowing trichs are a mongrel breed and the label doesn't mean much

[pinegapcontrol]

i wasnt posting to have a debate, I dont KNOW it is a cuzcoensis. to be honest only one person has SUGGESTED to me it is a cuzcoensis, PD, and that was a maybe.

[pinegapcontrol]

do you have to translate what you send in text, or are you unnecessarily rude on purpose?

[pinegapcontrol]

if you want to be a self appointed cactus cop then be my guest, you'll get nothing but frustration.

[pinegapcontrol]

and all it takes is one bullshit arguement to make the corroboree feel like FB, which i shutdown over a year ago, maybe im just not built for this mode of communication

[Philocacti]

Why don't you guys do areol grafts from your crests and find out the columnar form of it?

Wouldn't that be easier and a little more scientific?

[mutant]

Well I was not saying it is this or that (cuzco and not a peruv), but micoz pic suggests so for one, as it seems some people who have grown it think so as well.

Apparently there might be more than one strain of Hammiltons crests, so maybe there is a cuzcoid crest and peruv crest.

I cant understand whats the problem with me having an opinion and wanting to talk about taxonomy and phenotypes. You might think its pointless, or that labels dont matter or simply dont give a fuck, why bother with me being interested?

Sorry for being 'rude' - I was telling my opinion on something I find stupid.. Well for someone not giving a fuck about names or phenotypes or these discussions which are frequent in SAB cacti threads, spreading cacti with potentially wrong names might be fine. But in my opinion, these kind of threads, this in particular might be helpful for someone who likes to know the 'true' identity of his plants.

What if neither my two "oz/hammiltons" crests are cuzcos, and they happen to be pachanoi or peruvianus? I would have to own the cuzco strain, so I might just wanna ask for it as "Hammiltons crest sold as peruvianus, but seems more cuzcoid" . Or I am becoming blind and dont know what the fuck I am saying/seeing.

Bottom line micoz, is I would love to see your other hammiltons crests from the background.

Name your cacti as you want, me no cop, and the last sentence of my last post was of course sarcastic-ironic , not sure towards whom

[zelly]

We know now that this kind of shit has led to decades of US oriented confusion about several clones. Happy to not have been around in that dark ages of cactus collecting.... This kind of behaviour (keeping, copying, spreading wrong names) is only good for irresponsible sellers and trichocereus OCDers

yeah we're confused as all fuck lol.

Now who is it who's creating, copying & spreading all these wrong names? <insert aussie clone name here>

how in the fuck does bruce or psycho0 or kai or <insert aussie clone name here> translate into pachanoi, bridgesii or peruvianus?? talk about confusion !!! LoL

it makes not one whit of difference to me if its a pachanoi, or a peruvianus, or a bridgesii, the damn things look nice, are highly collectable, and are only as valuable as we make them.

see I'm of the opinion if a dude can name a plant in his garden bruce or whatever, I can do the same & call a pachanoi Miss Peru1982 wtf is the difference???

hey mutant, would you like your very own offset of Miss Peru1982?

I think I'm with micoz..........

and all it takes is one bullshit arguement to make the corroboree feel like FB, which i shutdown over a year ago, maybe im just not built for this mode of communication

[mutant]

well as far as I know bruce is a semi-monstrosa bridgesii and psychO a fatty bridgesii again.. a named clone does not cancel or excludes the species... on the contrary..

and well, if you dont care about species and all, wtf are you doing in this thread? show and talk peruvianus crests or skip it

well the two specimens Pimento kindly sent me seem to different from one other at a first glance

yellow spines in new growth

orange/reddish/brownich spines in new growth, plus some minor glaucusness I think

and something to please Zelly

new Long spines in old growth - but still a pachanoi (this is probably what has been called peruvianus mosntrosa in the US in the old days)

pachanoi kk339 long spines from old areoles

I was noting areoles in my pachanoi, areoles in my peruvianus.. The areoles are so much different.. much larger in peruvianoids..

I am into it for phenotypes, not names.. if you call the whole mess pachanoi how will you distinguish the strains and phenotypes?

[zelly]

I am into it for phenotypes, not names.

Many people in these forums suggest that growing (environmental & developmental) conditions can alter a plants looks & growth characteristics, correct?

A phenotype (from Greek phainein, meaning "to show", and typos, meaning "type") is the composite of an organism's observable characteristics or traits

So if you're not into names, sure sounds to me that it doesnt matter to you if its called a pachanoi ar a peruvianus, and you base what a plant is by what it looks like. At least thats what I'm ciphering from your typing above.

can a pachanoi be blue & not be a peruvianus?

can a bridgesii be blue & not be a peruvianus?

can a peruvianus be a peruvianus & not be blue?

wtf does being blue have to do with ID'ing a plant? (other than some pilocereus lets say)

phenotype is a buzz word, a word tossed around to make someone look like they know wtf they're talking about or cillage educayted bla bla bla

what you probably mean to say is genotype

The genotype of an organism is the inherited instructions it carries within its genome. Not all organisms with the same genotype look or act the same way because appearance and behavior are modified by environmental and developmental conditions. Likewise, not all organisms that look alike necessarily have the same genotype.

ps: i think you need better new buzzwords

[Psyentist]

Wow, people take tricho id's very seriously!

I hear what your saying about the whole genotype/phenotype thing zelly. But the problem with that is most of us don't have access to dna sequence testing equipment so the genotype can never be known, all we can go off is the phenotype to distinguish between species or clones.

Let's take a dog for example. A jack Russell has puppies to an unknown father. These puppies grow up to look like staffies but with jack Russell colouring (may not be possible but just an example). If you were to sell this dog and didn't know the mother you would call the dog a staffy cross (phenotype). But if you did know the mother you would call it a jack Russell crossed with what seems to be a staffy (genotype). With a lot of hybrids and open pollination occurring in cacti the father is often unknown so all we can use is the phenotype.

In my opinion the best way to learn about these plants is to collect as many different suspected genotypes, grow them out and compare their phenotypes. So I think really people can call their plants whatever they want to distinguish their collection, but the more history/pedigree you know of a plant the better.

Take this for example....

I got this from Bunnings labeled as a T. peruvianus, but it obviously isn't.

I call it a T. terschekii but if anyone asked about it I would say I got it as a peru.

Maybe it's a cross, who knows?

I think this 'discussion' is a great idea but it saddens me when people start arguing and taking personal digs at each other.

Remember, everybody knows something you don't.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Psyentist

[Psyentist]

Not singling you out here zelly. You's are all as bad as each other, hah!

And I don't see it as a bad thing either, I see it as passion.

But I think these discussions are great for people (like me) who don't know other people that grow trichs to compare phenotypes and get general info behind some of the plants they're growing.

So thanks everyone!

[Gunter]

Genotype informs phenotype. A phenotype cannot express which is not created by the genotype in response to environment.

The two terms are fundamentally linked in a biological sense.

The real issue for relative ID is complex. You have a phenotypic range, which is vital, but not enough to ID something as that a hybrid could express a phenotype of say a pachanoi, but be F1 and thus not a true pachanoi even if it passes as one to all observers.

If only we could easily culture anthers and produce haploid specimens from our plants in question...

My plant physiology teacher would say... Plants have all the anthers.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Gunter

[pinegapcontrol]

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33476

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33628

[mutant]

zelly>>

now we are diving into the core of the matter.

No, I meant phenotype, and as with genotype these are 100% greek words

γενότυπος, φαινότυπος , taken as is from greek to english

φαίνομαι ~ fenomee = appear /// while γένος ~genos has to do with genes/family

I have 10 years of mushroom identification experience in the field. I know exactly what a phenotype is and how enviroment might and will change appearances. You see with mushrooms a mistake can make you ill or worse .. F.e. Picking a semi-rotten or semi-dried edible .. many examples..

Many people in these forums suggest that growing (environmental & developmental) conditions can alter a plants looks & growth characteristics, correct?

correct, thats why its a good idea to start ID-judging and noting shit after growing a specimen in a standard location with plenty of sun. It is my understanding that growing cacti like this tends to bring the longest spines, the most wool, the most intense colours etc. this as a general observation.

So, for the same clone, different growing enviroments result in different expressions of phenotypes within the phenotypic range that the genotype sets..

That's generally the reason we often can have difficulty in IDing a columnar when its beaten, stressed, badly neglected or grown in unknown enviroment, until we grow it in our stardard spot and it reverts to new healthy growth...

When growing seed from pachanoiX? , the phenotype will vary according to the genotype created by the cross pachanoiX, and like Gunter said, some plants will have the same phenotype, and even pass like true pachanois, even if their genotype is not exactly the same with the mother or with oneother..

In any case we can only jugde by the pheno cause we are not geneticists/biologists in a lab.

on the reasons cacti go crest or variegata in the first place. The crestation is sometimes in the genotype, like with nitro conoisser batch, but sometimes it is theorised a virus or something can cause monstrosities or variegation.. Does the virus dna enter the plants dna? does the virus copy itself in the plants genome so it becomes part of it?? Can a virus thus alter a genotype? Far all we know it can happen, we know it happens in nature.

But in any case we can only observe what is visible and this is the phenotype, the appearance, correct?

So if you're not into names, sure sounds to me that it doesnt matter to you if its called a pachanoi ar a peruvianus, and you base what a plant is by what it looks like.

true that I base what I say to appearance, but the the real use of taxonomy is not confusion but to be able to describe... we use names to describe species and formas. Taxonomy is not some boring shit for me, its fascinating and it has to do with the tree of life...

to sum up, even if the genomes of 'true pachanois' were found to be that similar with 'true peruvianus' so that all the species including macrogonus and whatnot fell into subspecies/var status, I would still observe two different phenotypes with a need for a name each to distinguish.

I dont know why you object so much with me noting the glaucousness , its a phenotypical trait and I dont ignore it, how could I?

can a pachanoi be blue & not be a peruvianus?

can a bridgesii be blue & not be a peruvianus?

can a peruvianus be a peruvianus & not be blue?

I never said the glaucousness is the only or even the most crucial telling sign , neither regard glaucousness as a black~white characteristic.

Some true blue peruviani are almost as blue as pilosocerei , some are more varied.

Bridgesii's bluegreen is more distinct, less varied it seems in the species

Some macrogonoids, f.e. some of EG "glaucus" seedling seem not to be as blue as others..

PS: A last comment about flaming, argueing in a bad 'way', heat and all.

I have a weird sense of humour and plenty of directness. But in the end of the day I care for what I am discussing as well as for the opinions of my co-talkers.

the challenge is to process heat (give and take heat) and not get offended. I was never like people who had no strong opinions on anything, but still get offended by people who do.

I like heated discussions IRL too, and I like to disagree.. What to talk about when you agree with a dude in some point? You got to find some area there's a difference in the point of views..

Plus I have learnt a shitload of stuff this way, and faster

PS2 : Psyentist I agree this seems like a terscheckii !

Edited April 26, 2015 by mutant

[pinegapcontrol]

heres some pics all originally from one hamiltons crest about 10cm wide by 5cm tall.

sorry the rain wouldnt let up

[Psyentist]

Wow!

It's almost unbelievable that they all came from one little crest.

Great to see such diversity in one plant.

Thanks for sharing.

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Great pics micoz thanks for doing that!! So since your looking at the thing and it's reverts.. What does your eye see? I personally see a few different plants depending on the picture lol

[pinegapcontrol]

I dont know. thats the simple answer. I can certainly see why people call it cuzco and personally i agree with it, I dont like the idea of changing a name based on 1 photo, but even with all my plants i still find it very hard to say definitively whether its cuzco or peru.

If you read this post http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33476 the reverts i have look very similar to the ones in the link, the ones in the link are from hamiltons who got them from another supplier who sold them to hamiltons as peruvianus. I would wager that the crest has come out of the same ( or similar) batch of seed, But...I have absolutely nothing to back that claim up.

[zelly]

The offspring of a Jack Russell crossed with a mutt is just a mutt.

Instead of trying to pin the plant down to a peruvianus or a cuzcoensis just call it a mutt & be done with it

[Psyentist]

Hah, sure is a sexy mutt though!

[mutant]

Micoz thanks for the photos, seems like a great clone

You're still here Zelly? Oh the hypocrisy! Crash on a taxonomy thread to state he doesn't care about taxonomy

The offspring of a Jack Russell crossed with a mutt is just a mutt.

bollocks... how do you know , are you a genome expert?

once I fucked a jack russel and the offspring looked exactly like your Trichocereus huanucoensis

Edited April 28, 2015 by mutant

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Lol mutant fucked a dog