10 000 hrs + of meditation, or ...

[-RC-]

Apparently some folk are of the opinion that mushrooms can put you into a meditative state only achievable after 10000 hrs + of meditation practice.

 

I suppose it then comes down to if you are familiar at all with such states as far as how much real world benefit can be reaped from such experiences I guess

[bloomy]

It seems people's definition of real 'meditation' is sitting in lotus and trying not to think. Does 10.000 hours of this have the same effect as a psychedelic mushroom? I'm not sure.

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

takes some "highly trained" spiritualists 25 years+ before reaching something unlockable in minutes

25 years to hours equals 219145 hours

if you calculate as whole years lol with no time for sleep or anythin else

 

 

1 hour a week would be 1300 hours after 25 yrs

1 hour a day (above X7) would be 9100 hours after 25 yrs

this also assumes base point starts at being able/trained/natural

i dont think there's quite a button like the ones in the field

Edited December 29, 2014 by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

[Distracted]

I'd beleive it.

I've been in some strange states I thought were normal that i've read up on as end goals for meditation masters :/

To know nothing is to recognise everything.

[Meditator]

The third eye chakra meditation can lead to psychedelic imagry and visions. You can also have OBEs which definitely can be psychedelic.

When you let the darkness behind your eyelids turn pitch black and envelope your whole head then body.. Youll start having a trip of kinds. I use to do it all the time in pitch black darkness.

I definitely believe magic mushrooms can put you in the same place.

[incognito]

Only place they seem to put me is in the bowels of my own personalised hell :.(

[Seldom]

werd ^ the subs in our part of the world have had that effect on me aswell, excruciating

[gtarman]

It seems plausible that mushrooms could speed up the process - I remember reading research on psilocybin being used to treat trauma in animal studies and apparently it has an effect of somehow helping to rewire the brain, maybe via increased neuroplasticity or something, I can't remember :-s

[Dreamwalker.]

I found it really interesting............brain scans ..mri's...those images correlate ...I think I recall him pointing out that the mushroom effect didn't endure....temporary when compared to mindfulness med...........

Not sure what bloomy meant by" It seems people's definition of real 'meditation' is sitting in lotus and trying not to think"...........insight med is not about "not thinking".

[-RC-]

^ yes definitely temporary from mushrooms. Regardless I wonder if it is then a matter of training the habit body so that after sufficient exposure to the meditative state and shift of neural control networks it is easier to achieve in the future, and also more enduring?

[sharxx101]

The younger the better too I believe, if you train at meditation from a young age it will be easier to go deeper into the meditation. I see the young monks in SE Asia and have nothing but respect for their practices. As I don't see Buddhism as a religion to me I see it more as a way of life. They are exploring the mind and the universal energy that is everything. Western society could learn a lot from these ancient practices (I know it is practised in the West but not enough). As it teaches us to slow down, be calm and relax. Where as here it is all about rushing to do nothing and getting a tablet to fix all you problems.

The same has been said about DMT it is a short cut to an altered state or an enlightenment. Many people have out of body experiences, meet spirits, aliens etc.

Edited January 4, 2015 by sharxx101

[sharxx101]

I wonder is this only in the higher doses of shrooms? I'm pretty sure its not a one dose fits all.

[-RC-]

In the clip he talks about medium doses, so I'm assuming that means (in cubes at least) 3 grams +.

[sharxx101]

Interesting. But unlike taking Shrooms meditation is an altered state with out being induced by something you ate or drank. Yes it can be chemically induced by our brain but I imagine it would not be good to eat shrooms everyday to achieve a meditative state.

Better staring at the Sun

[-RC-]

You actually would be wasting your time taking any psilocybin for days straight as tolerance is achieved very quickly and little effect will be noticed before long.

That said I understand that tolerance disappears after a few days or so.

Everything in moderation aye?

[Cubism]

Although I must say I didnt watch it all, having watched/read other stuff on the same subject, I reckon theres often one major point missing.

The insight, wisdom and understanding about yourself and reality that you gain from even just a year or two of meditation, which remains with you and positively influences your outlook and behaviour in life, can never be achieved from a few hours on shrooms

Certainly the same meditative state may be achieved by some people simply by taking shrooms, but where are you left when you come down?

[-RC-]

^ I totally agree. This clip, whilst addressing ayahuasca, echoes this sentiment.

 

[Distracted]

I wonder is this only in the higher doses of shrooms? I'm pretty sure its not a one dose fits all.

2 grams of subs is enough.

The biggest problem i've had is that the realisations can't be enacted upon at the time due to your inebriation.

I can't come out and say any single event has changed my outlook and lifestyle for the better which is one of the main goals of psychedelic therapy... but I have certainly become more accepting of the choices i've made in life and the journey I am on.

[Meditator]

I found it interesting that deactivation of certain brain regions actually meant a lot.

In meditation when the brain rests and just functions efficiently and coopratevly without strain im sure certain regions deactivate a bit and let other neural circuts light up more.

Now my question is, what if we litterally destroyed those parts of the brain? Would we be stuck in a non dual state with no mental chatter?

And also, what about DMT? Is it the same effect on the brain as mushrooms?

[-RC-]

^ Ostensibly it would be because psilocybin and DMT are both tryptamines, and are almost chemically identical.

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

I found it interesting that deactivation of certain brain regions actually meant a lot.

In meditation when the brain rests and just functions efficiently and coopratevly without strain im sure certain regions deactivate a bit and let other neural circuts light up more.

Now my question is, what if we litterally destroyed those parts of the brain? Would we be stuck in a non dual state with no mental chatter?

And also, what about DMT? Is it the same effect on the brain as mushrooms?

awesome questions !

and I'm wondering if those parts of the brain were destroyed, if it would mean for a coma

or other un-wakeable sleep type thing if there are more than just comas

or if it would mean for those kinda symptoms like when you see those people talking/shouting and lol/striking out at what seems to the onlooker as: "nothing there"

or if it would mean for migraine visuals with auras but no pain...

the mind boggles huh?

perhaps there may be some info out there? of past examples with prescedent over that particular "brain parts" thing

Edited January 7, 2015 by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

Although I must say I didnt watch it all, having watched/read other stuff on the same subject, I reckon theres often one major point missing.

The insight, wisdom and understanding about yourself and reality that you gain from even just a year or two of meditation, which remains with you and positively influences your outlook and behaviour in life, can never be achieved from a few hours on shrooms

Certainly the same meditative state may be achieved by some people simply by taking shrooms, but where are you left when you come down?

i wonder if a hunt for "people who have made external additions to their chemistry before learning to meditate" would help ?

i learned to meditate properly in my late teens/early 20s from an old chinese boxing tao.... so already knew prior - and im an 80s kid

the only way any external additions to my chemistry before that would have been from too many opuntia ficus indica fruits as a tiny kid, if that's even a possibility lol

or inhaling some random big waft of s'rue incense perhaps? , or eating a piece of a good cigar age 2.... : /

i found the biggest benefit was a couple of years wild , gave a bigger view of how nature flows than the one prior

anything from air, fire, earth and water to critters, seasons and growth

- which thinking about it may simply equate to "being left alone long enough"

Edited January 7, 2015 by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

[ThunderIdeal]

haven't watched the video, but are they suggesting that mushrooms can provide an experience similar to one you might or might not receive after meditating?

if so then it's interesting but a lot like comparing mushrooms to watching fireworks. the end result won't be the same. i think plenty of meditators become trippers and trippers become meditators by virtue of the earlier mind-opening hobby leading them to the latter, and they are complementary for sure but experience alone tells me they are different, because some trippers are incapable of meditation (terrence mckenna) and some meditators are closed-minded and unimaginitive. some philosophers probably occupy the are in between.

but truly, there are so many different ways that either hobby can alter your course, which i guess leads me to an important distinction. meditation can be taken as per various prescriptions and should point you in a well mapped direction, those prescriptions are a package that isn't imbibed and can be used or ignored in any given moment, you invest deeply in time but you're never in too deep, instructions are a finger pointing as somebody once said of religion. mushrooms can point but they're a finger poking, and often poking towards similar realisations taught by spiritual schools (a bit of shared history maybe?) but ultimately into a random section of a poorly mapped territory providing many new thoughts and stimuli which probably give one a taste of why self-mastery is handy but not landing them much closer to it in most cases.

i'd label them left and right hand paths, or tantric and orthodox paths. where that divide falls exactly depends on who you ask but supposedly the more orthodox methods, spread across multiple reincarnations, have enabled countless ascents from the wheel of life and death, through dilligent and safe practise, so that's a traversible well-marked track and it shouldn't be disregarded, but there are other amazing and dangerous paths you can zoom down and while intact mystic systems like hinduism have sects dedicated to some of the hairier methods, admittedly they are guided by millenia of tradition, and a little hallucinogenic use might be quite orthodox in that environment. well, from my point of view, most westerners such as we are just loading ourselves into a catapult when we trip, the first 20 times anyway. it isn't the safe and travelled path because we don't agree on the destination usually settling for something lesser and there is limited cultural context for comprehending each journey which is why it is a journey sometimes not taken even though the hallucinogen is imbibed (explore whats on the tv rather than yourself), not taken seriously, or for one tripper in a handful it is taken seriously as viewed through a UNIQUE eclectic lens rather than a well-honed and functional cultural lens. for us westerners re-examining the boundaries it is a left hand activity i have no doubt, not physically risky thanks to pharmacological near-certainties, but you can't tell me this is the process of a steady personality inching carefully towards what is unquestionably their destination. anyway our processes are uniquely cobbled like our individual westerner lenses, mine includes a part where i seriously call into question why i even consider tripping once more let alone as an overall strategy. you don't get that with meditation, you don't wonder if you're a nutcase to meditate or if it's turning you into a bigger and less-reserved nutcase, meditation is like eating vegetables, it's practically never a bad thing.

edit: some of you might think i'm dissing western culture so i'll say there are benefits to living in a culture that doesn't embed itself into spirituality or philosphy because while eastern religions advertise unknowability, they contain many other words which may have been intended as pointers not axioms but they contain many words and when people (everywhere) aren't taught to recognise their own assumptions then written words are even better than assumptions, they are printed fact. maybe it shouldn't be, but it's surprising to me how easily people can become pretty confident in their view of some spiritual mechanisms, the byproduct of groups of people colluding to understand rather than question and wonder. there aren't enough dogma-peddling groups in australia to make dogma and other unsatisfactory statements really catch hold. so... you may feel a little disoriented even before you start taking these drugs and seeking altered states, growing up around science, ten thousand worldviews with healthy bulk cynicism, shit media outlets and every clueless internet voice within easy reach. feeling at a loss for meaning, direction and understanding is a beautiful thing and i'm not sure if arises easily when everyone around you knows as much as they want to know and you can't access substances to explore. cherish that feeling, i reckon that's how man should feel, i reckon that's how early man felt. don't believe the shit you hear that early man just walked around waffling bullshit, the power and comfort of bullshit came later. early man felt uneasy, alive, he did not know his place or time or all of the sensations and feelings, he understood death and birth the way a child or a dog can, with a stupendous awe. you might start to feel that way when you're tripping, it's not an easy feeling, it's a feeling befitting of an organism trying to survive, not just through fear but through other faculties including understanding, and you can't wander around this epic curiosity amassing a horde of useful inferences if you aren't flexible to rethink and discard and change perspective.

well that's one of the gifts of tripping, and living in a culture with no dominant woldview. we can make a lot of guesses and insights while witnessing wonders as a humble poised beast, but now we choose to be curators, so our brain treats us like curators

Edited January 8, 2015 by ThunderIdeal

[FancyPants]

You actually would be wasting your time taking any psilocybin for days straight as tolerance is achieved very quickly and little effect will be noticed before long.

That said I understand that tolerance disappears after a few days or so.

Everything in moderation aye?

Have psilo two nights in a row and meditate the third day? For the rest of your life? Anyone up for the challenge?

awesome questions !

and I'm wondering if those parts of the brain were destroyed, if it would mean for a coma

or other un-wakeable sleep type thing if there are more than just comas

or if it would mean for those kinda symptoms like when you see those people talking/shouting and lol/striking out at what seems to the onlooker as: "nothing there"

or if it would mean for migraine visuals with auras but no pain...

the mind boggles huh?

perhaps there may be some info out there? of past examples with prescedent over that particular "brain parts" thing

I was reading something lately about a particular part of the brain relating to connection with self (have to go look that up again) and how people with dissociative disorders lack reactions in that part. I wonder how that would correlate to this. I have to now try and find a better diagram of this Gary Weber's main neuronal dialogue centres. Would the nmda receptors be a part of that? With the dissociative anaesthetics (No Place For Egos)? Dextromethorphan gives a mild euphoria in lower (2nd plateau) doses before you hit Robotown. Dear baby, welcome to Robotown; population: yyyoooooouuuuu... *dribbles*

God I love me some brain stuff. Don't understand a half I reckon but so fascinating.

On another note; someone close to me had a profound experience with subs (his first or second experience I forget which) in which the alien entities told him to just forget about meditating and to instead eat of the teonanacatl; "it'll get you where you need to be quicker". I'd been saying this for years, but tbh I just thought I was being a knobhead.

Edited January 29, 2015 by FancyPants