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nut

What is our responsibility ??

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I feel I need to ask our community what response we should make when it is obvious we are looking at plants that are clearly illegally collected from the wild.plants that are too large to possibly be in collections legally given their growth rates and sizes in said collections.i have seen such things a few times in last month and it has been interesting to see peeps response to photos.some state envy for ownership of such plants and then there's the important few who ask or state such plants must be "x" old.implying the obvious....should we not state the fact that logic dictates what we are being shown is illegal and show a strong disapproval...I'm very tired but does this make sense and what does my fav online family think of this......

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Hello Nut, i am not sure what you mean with "collected from the wild".

I guess it would be best to differentiate between:

a.) Plants that were collected in the natural Habitat, like Peru, Bolivia, Brasil, and so on.

b.) Plants that were grown in private gardens, as fencing, cactus farms, greenhouses and so on.

Of course, it´s illegal to remove live Cacti from the Habitat in most cases. If plants are cites Protected, that´s a pretty serious crime and legal punishment for that is pretty hard.

I guess it´s safe to say that Australia isn´t known for their Cactus Habitats, right? With that i mean that most are planted and didn´t grow there by themselves. So I am not sure where you're going with your post. Of course, it´s illegal to steal the plants that are growing on someone elses Property. Don´t think anyone here disagrees with that. But not every large Cactus that you see here was "stolen". I´m pretty sure none of them was. People here usually ask for permission before taking cuttings. And if the community suspects someone may have stolen a cactus he shows, he´s usually getting a lot of shit for it. I remember a Thread a year or two ago and it was very uncomfortable for the OP.

Of course it can happen that someone digs out a cactus in the middle of the desert and takes it home. But i wouldn't know how it would a.) be possible for us to know and b.) don't think we have the right to incriminate someone here, only based on the suspicion the plant might be stolen.

Edited by Evil Genius

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Ok.as I was just about to post,I realise I left this out,NONE of the things I have seen were connected with sab posts or images.the examples were on other sites.i don't wish to get more specific.but I have seen an interesting duality between "amazing plants thanks for sharing" and peeps who clearly know these specimens are not legal due to there known growth rates and size in said collection.i have seen posts happy to ignore the obvious when these people should be ,in my opinion branded criminal....

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Btw, who decides whìch Plant is "obviously stolen" and which One isn´t? You know, this is a Plant Forum and people here are hardly able to "judge" about something like that by looking at a Picture. Legally, it would be a serious offense to publicly suspect and incriminate someone of stealing a Plant that he posted pictures of. Only based on a Suspicion or a gut feeling without having proof. If you on the other hand know for a fact that a plant is stolen, it´s a whole different ballgame. It´s not even the same Sport. We do not tolerate Plant Theft. Period. But since we are not the Judge of that, this is actually too complex and dangerous Issue to address here.

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Ok.as I was just about to post,I realise I left this out,NONE of the things I have seen were connected with sab posts or images.the examples were on other sites.i don't wish to get more specific.but I have seen an interesting duality between "amazing plants thanks for sharing" and peeps who clearly know these specimens are not legal due to there known growth rates and size in said collection.i have seen posts happy to ignore the obvious when these people should be ,in my opinion branded criminal....

Alright, that makes it a bit more clear. Well, like i said, if you don´t have proof, there´s probably still nothing you can do. If they openly admit to having stolen a Plant, that is something entirely else.

Edit: Personally, i would probably call the cops on someone who stole a Plant from someones collection. Could have been mine and i don´t tolerate that. But without proof, it´s a hornest nest. People could legally rip you a second butthole if you´d publicly suspect them of stealing. And if you just call the cops without proof, i am not sure how serious they would take it.

Edited by Evil Genius
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My "proof" is the plant had to have been illegally taken from the wild due to the time in which it was discovered by science and its size and it being in there collection in the first place

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As EG said just because its a big cutting/plant doesn't necessarily mean its been stolen. I've been collecting for about 4 years now so couldn't have seed grown most of the plants in my collection but I've purchased from people in person and from these forums some cuttings that absolutely enormous but that certainly doesn't mean they've been stolen.

I've also seen numerous posts on here from people acquiring cacti from deceased estates or through landscaping work that would have to be bloody old due to their size but again it doesn't mean they've been stolen.

I do agree though if you've proof (which is probably only possible if it were your own cacti) of people stealing cacti then that definitely should not be tolerated.

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My "proof" is the plant had to have been illegally taken from the wild due to the time in which it was discovered by science and its size and it being in there collection in the first place

Sorry, I have trouble to understand that. Please explain this a bit further. So let´s say, for example, a Trichocereus species was first collected in the 1970s and you find a Plant in someones garden that is so big that it must have been planted around the time it was discovered?

Back the, there was basically no protection for wild populations. It was like the Wild West for Plant-Collectors. People like Backeberg and Friedrich Ritter just loaded them on their Truck and drove off. This may be unmoralic, but hardly punishable under modern law. It's probably barred and at that time, the protection wasn't in place like it is now anyway. Cites only applies to plants that were collected after a certain date.

And you know, who get´s to decide what size the Plant "should" have and "shouldn´t"? Size is influenced by many Factors.

Edited by Evil Genius
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You talking bout the A. Valdezii, Nut?

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Alright, now i know what you meant, Nut! Well yeah, with a newly discovered species like that, it´s probably very hard to believe the seed comes from somewhere else than a habitat.

That being said, a new species like this is NOT covered through CITES yet. It´s simply too new. I just checked and Aztekium Valdezii is not in the database yet. My personal Opinion which is absolutely no legal Advice as i am not a lawyer, is that seeds of it are probably legal, hence not covered under cites.

Edited by Evil Genius

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I can even remember a similar case, when the first Aztekium was discovered. If i remember right, the only source for them was through dubious channels or highly priced Auctions on ebay during the first months. Many commercial sellers were battling bidding wars on ebay for the first seeds. And if I'm not mistaken, it was absolutely legal at that time until it became a CITES II protected Species. Moralically, totally different thing.

Edit: Btw, it seems like this Aztekium species has been already grown for a while before it was publicly reported and through grafting on a large number of stocks, the available plants may even be nursery produced.

Edited by Evil Genius

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was intrigued so fired up google, came across this:

extract from http://seedscactus.com/en/content/65-aztekium-valdezii-let-s-clarify

We want to remember you, if ever it were needed, that the collection of plant specimens from their habitat (which in the case of Aztekium valdezii is limited to a few square miles in the Sierra Madre Oriental), as well as seeds collection, is strictly prohibited by Mexican authorities since 1988 with a Decree from the standpoint of especially hard sanctions. Severe penalties are provided also by the European Union, which, according to CITES, strictly prohibits the collection of specimens and seeds in the habitat. It is true that the official inclusion of Aztekium valdezii in Annex A of Regulation (EU) No 338/97 and subsequent amendments hasn't yet come, but it is only a matter of time (the A. ritteri is included), but in any case, since the day of its discovery, the new plant is automatically included in Annex B simply as a Cactacea, with all the ensuing consequences for illegal traffickers.

Collection in habitat may be authorized by the above-mentioned solely for purposes of scientific research and to promote the artificial propagation of the species for its preservation, something that has never happened so far. We repeat that no merchant and nurseryman has right to own (and even less to market) Aztekium valdezii seeds or plants; we add that, as suggested by our lawyer, the buyer is jointly responsible for the offense, staging unwary purchase. Forewarned is forearmed.

A sad story like many others, unfortunately. A history of disrespect towards biodiversity and the conservation of species, of impoverishment of the natural environment, but with one strong awareness: with our behavior, we end users can address the traders to respect and legality, not purchasing and becoming complicit in the prohibited trafficking.

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Hi Waterboy, thanks for posting. Live Plants are always CITES II. Means you can't ship them internationally. But since it is allowed to trade Seeds of Plants that are CITES II, but not I, I think it would be legal to receive them. If it´s not the whole Family that is protected, it´s either CITES I protected or it is not. So while you might get a troublesome time with customs with them, i doubt it would stand in "court". A similar principle applies to research chemicals. They are either illegal or they aren´t. That being said, I wouldn't want to risk it. I am sure the Plant will be available from official nurseries in a few years.

Edited by Evil Genius

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I was intrigued by the Mexican Gov. decree I wasn't aware of that.

How well it actually stands in practice however is another thing though, enough cashola probably gets shit done.

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Well, yeah, I think seeds & Plants that are collected from the wild in Mexico are always protected. If it´s seed from the stock of private or commercial growers, it should be different. It´s definitely a complex issue in this particular case. I guess customs would absolutely make sure to use every option they have to confiscate them, even if you might win in court.

Edited by Evil Genius

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unfortunately for poor little a. valdezii, they're highly attractive to the most dangerous predator on earth.

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I noticed on ebay here in the US there are a lot of sellers popping up from specific citties in Texas (wild habitat of A. fissuratus) selling exclusively big, obviously wild collected Ariocarpus fissuratus and no other species or genera. I sent messages to all of them asking them if they were wild collecting these and none of them sent responses (while obviously being active since they keep adding new ones everyday.) I wish there was a way I could report these people. I don't think they realize what they're doing to the wild population of these plants in texas. Or who knows... maybe they do and they don't care as long as they get their money.

Here are the two i've been watching. They both are based out of A. fissuratus habitat in texas and sell exclusively wild looking, big A. fissuratus. Coincidence or a case of wild collecting for profits? Who knows.

http://www.ebay.com/usr/yuccamanxyz This one i'm pretty sure is doing it. All the plants are very dusty dirty plants. Pictures show them out of pots and they're sitting outside on a cooler usually looking like they just picked them out of the dirt.

http://www.ebay.com/usr/spinetacular This one I'm not positive about since the plants are cleaner. But they wouldn't respond to me if they wild collect them and they only sell A. fissuratus and they live near the habitat.

Edited by hostilis

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I like to believe that spinetacular has been growing ariocarpus for many years and now has decided to sell his collection although its just speculation.

yuccamanxyz is pretty clear that it is habitat collected however that doesn't mean they are "illegally" poached per se since they could be on his land or also be on land that is being demolished.

As for aztekium valdezii, MANY plants have been taken from habitat however there are people that have had seeds for 4 years already and they could have been previously grafted and czech growers are know for their habitat poaching as well as their innate ability to grow difficult cacti with great results. Most (if not all) seeds being sold are produced from grafted plants that were grown from poached seeds/plants.

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Yeah. I'm not positive about either sellers. spinetacular it's just a fleeting suspision, but with the other one i'm almost positive they're wild collected.. I just find it weird that they wouldn't at least give a potential buyer some information on whether they were cultivated or wild collected. If they weren't hiding anything you'd think they would say, :"I grow these plants." Or, "I find them on my land" ect...

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Every spring a local arboretum hosts what they call a spring fling, consisting of plant sales, with dozens if not hundreds of plant sellers.....and every year a big cacti wholesaler shows up, with monster-to-die-for cacti.

All the 4"-5" ario fiss heads I wanted for $25 per, all in 8" shallow pots, desert sand potting soil

His wholesale minimum order requirements is $5k, and he supposedly supplys a whole lot of nurseries & retail establishments and some ebay vendors.

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Brendo a.Valdezii is the classic case I was thinking of.i was not referring to plants stolen from collections.i should be a little clearer before making a point.im sorry that wasn't .

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