Mars Terraforming

[whitewind]

I was pondering the other day, on how we could instigate a terraforming of Mars. Mildly controversial, apparently there are those who want Mars to remain red and not be greened up, and there are those who think we should fix up our own planet's ecosystem before attempting to muck around with others, but I've always had an interest in Mars and I think it's a new frontier that is likely to be developed in some way in our lifetime, so I want to talk about this. I know there are some smart scientists on here so if you can guide me back on track where I get a bit over-enthusiastic, I'd appreciate it

Now there are a few basic things we need to know

1. soil (dust / whatever) which I know nothing about

2. atmosphere

3. water

4. current temperatures

5. light intensity / wavelengths

6. the plants / fungi / algae which can be mass grown with little effort in the above conditions. Transported and sown in some kind of stratum easily.

A few random Q's like how the plants adapt to changing conditions or should there be a new set of introductions periodically to continue the process (ie as it gets warmer / atmospheric changes etc.) and whether we feel genetic modification is acceptable for pioneer species to help them cope with initial extreme conditions.

So for the sake of argument we do want to convert the existing environment / materials into something rather Earthlike we can live in. What are your thoughts? I'd rather keep it to practicalities please no philosophy here

Yeah well I'm doing some research on this I was going to post some up but I wanted to get the topic started if anyone else was interested get a yarn going

[Distracted]

We should just continually nuke the planet and send urea over and let the radiation sort it out.

:D

[ThunderIdeal]

i think in most ways it's pretty feasible and probably a good idea (as long as it doesn't make us feel like we can keep trashing the home-world).

really the issue is water. if there's a solution to the water shortage, then there's a solution to the incompatible atmosphere. we could fix it up pretty good but giving it a magnetic field seems far beyond current means.

[whitewind]

i think in most ways it's pretty feasible and probably a good idea (as long as it doesn't make us feel like we can keep trashing the home-world).

really the issue is water. if there's a solution to the water shortage, then there's a solution to the incompatible atmosphere. we could fix it up pretty good but giving it a magnetic field seems far beyond current means.

That just made me think, that we already have models of the Earth's climate, all we need to do is change the parameters to match Mars and see what happens. Then we can adjust variables such as the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere and see how much impact that has on temps etc. Not good at Maths me, so need a mathematician who knows how to run these things

[whitewind]

We should just continually nuke the planet and send urea over and let the radiation sort it out.

:D

Or not. Nuking might leave the planet uninhabitable for too long, or affect any equipment we send there to monitor it. A thinner atmosphere may mean that a lot of hard radiation already hits the surface. Does Mars have much of an ozone layer? (Lazy me: Wikipedia already has a good entry on the basic of this stuff )

[∂an]

My understanding is that the lack of a global magnetic field and the thin atmosphere create a radiation environment on the surface of Mars that is not hospitable to life as we know it. Earth's magnetic field shields it from most of the galactic cosmic rays and solar energetic particles, whereas Mars lacks such a global magnetic field. This may also be why the Martian atmosphere is so thin - it has been striped away into space by incident hard radiation.

Short of engineering the whole planet by the creation of an artificial magnetic field and pumping it full of oxygen (not physically possible, and probably wouldn't even work), the best option seems to be the creation of a sealed habitat with artificial environment. A photosynthesis like process could be used to create O2 from the CO2 in the atmosphere, and a thick casing and maybe even an artificial magnetic field could be used to protect from radiation. Maybe... In reality the first steps by a space agency will probably be to build subterranean bunkers where people could hold out and research the feasibility so growing simple plants etc.

[Yeti101]

Yeah, the lack of a magnetosphere is a pickle alright - to create one of those for a planet is to enter the realms of the weakly god-like - how do you kick-start a geodynamo?

I can see how living in a small-scale pressurized habitat would not be super appealing for some (or many). A long term plan would require thinking outside the square in one way or another. Even if you could get enough O2 into the atmosphere - say through the use of a GE extreme-ophile photosynthesizing bacteria/aglae and you can find/create a bit of water, then the solar and cosmic radiation is still going to be a problem. Unless you are going to produce a whole ecosystem that is untroubled by the radiation (including the people) then you are still going to be living underground/under a dome/ putting a roof on a crater etc.

[Dreamwalker.]

I think the field is wide open on this..................a shield is really important.....an Distracted had the answer...............but not the surface.....you nuke the inner core and reignite fusion............I suspect the core is still very hot any way.......just needs a kick start............

as for life..................

"Two groups of lichen samples were placed inside a Mars simulation chamber " so whitewind you could create a Mars like environment.........opportunity to test life forms...............

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2014-01-lichen-mars.html#jCp

http://phys.org/news/2014-01-lichen-mars.html

So Antarctic lichen will probably survive there ...............with out doing a thing.........assuming a similar life form isn't there already..........

I think extra terrestrial lifeless worlds are prime candidates for GE....................both of the flora and fauna.....which includes us....................We can adapt to the environment............

There's oceans of H2O and Co2 already on Mars.

And loads of caves.................ideal uv free habitats .........we shall return back to cave living................can't beat a cozy cave.................

Edited October 20, 2014 by Dreamwalker.

[∂an]

I think if terraforming Mars is our best option we are truly fucked.

[Anodyne]

Whitewind - try reading Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy, which is about humans terraforming & settling on Mars. It's science fiction, but it's "hard" sci-fi, i.e. well-researched and technically feasible. I'm not a geologist (or "areologist" as the case may be) so I don't know how accurate those bits are, but judging by the science I did understand, I'm guessing that the answer is "very". And probably a lot more readable than the NASA papers. He discusses all of the points you mentioned and more, such as the sociopolitical implications of an offworld colony.

In short, he proposes that if we want to live on Mars permanently it's not enough to terraform the planet, we have to change ourselves as well - his (centuries-distant) Mars is populated by plants and animals (including humans) that have been genetically modified to adapt them to Mars conditions: lower gravity, high salinity/radiation/carbon dioxide etc.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Anodyne

[∂an]

I don't think it would be possible to 'restart' the magnetic field of Mars with explosions (the just nuke it idea). It would be like trying to fix a broken lava lamp by giving it a good thump. I'm thinking second law of thermodynamics, systems don't spontaneously jump to higher states of order. I think what you would need to do is apply a massive external magnetic field to the planet to restart the convection of the magma, and then see if it persists when you turn it off...

Yeah when I run through this problem in my head, the biggest hurdle always seems to be the fragility of the human body and its need for earth like conditions. As Anodyne said bio engineering of the human form may be critical. How about a human that existed only as a brain embedded in a machine, like that bag guy from teenage mutant ninja turtles?

[Yeti101]

It might be that engineering our own forms is the bulk of the solution. An environment like Mars requires a very different physiology, so why stop there? If you can genetically/bio/cyborg-engineer a person who can safely walk around Mars without a radiation-proof pressure suit, then many other feats of engineering would be a snap by comparison. Perhaps a Peter F Hamilton style bitek habitat orbiting Jupiter. For that matter, why go off-world when you can be engineered to tread much more lightly on Earth - photo-synthetic bio-augmentation anyone? Never go hungry again as long as there is some sunlight and a few raw materials (GE gut flora might produce some interesting outcomes as well, but I digress.)

A future where (some) humans adapt - or are adapted to fit in with their new environments rather than fuck everything up is the kind of thing envisioned by Dan Simmons when he wrote about the Ousters in the Hyperion novels - it's a big theme in the first two books - not so much from hard science perspective though. He also writes about brains in robot type things - the Moravecs - in the Ilium books (there is a Mars connection - but you'll have to read the book to find out!)

It's not just the science that is the problem when considering this. There is the small matter of there still being people who will kill you if you are the wrong color, believe in the wrong economic system or pray to the wrong imaginary sky-santa. These people are going to struggle a bit with some of this stuff.

[Dreamwalker.]

Mars One, it received over 200,000 applications from people that want to crew its one-way missions, which it has culled down to 1,038.

.....not sure if I'd want to go cyborg .......I think increasingly tec will be more and ultimately all bio based.......................the sci fi idea of shooting through the stars in a tin can (even if its the enterprise) is quaint (like their tight uniforms...........seriously if we are still dressing up like clowns...be it the suit and tie's or what ever...we will be laughed out of the milky way))...............I think ships are more likely to be living entities in a symbiotic relationship with its passengers......perhaps that may be a good way to terra form.....turn the planet into a living entity.........

Edited January 21, 2014 by Dreamwalker

[Dreamwalker.]

http://phys.org/news/2014-03-intensifieson-planets.html

"As the subsurface temperatures of the Red Planet are above the melting point of water,."

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2014-03-intensifieson-planets.html#jCp

Edited October 20, 2014 by Dreamwalker.