How do you pronounce this plant name properly?

[gtarman]

Hey guys. So I tend to struggle with the correct pronunciation of botanical names at the best of times, but this one has me stumped:

Cnidoscolus aconitifolius

Anybody know how to say it, and willing to write it out phonetically for me? Sorry...

I'm looking for a cutting of the plant (common name "Chaya" or "Tree Spinach"), but it's hard when I can't tell people the proper name of what I'm looking for.

Cheers,

Gman

Edited November 21, 2013 by gtarman

[gtarman]

Nevermind, Doctor Google has come through for me:

The botanical history of Chaya is as follows. In the 1700s originally classified in genusJatropha, Chaya and its relatives were transferred to genus Cnidoscolus in 1827, by Johann Baptist Emanuel Pohl (1782 - 1834). The unwieldy name Cnidoscolus was derived from the Greek knide (nettle), and skolos (thorn, prickle or sting). The initial c is silent, so pronunciation is ni-dos-kol-us, with the accent on either the second or third syllable.

[Bert&Ernie]

Change the title to Botanical Name Pronunciation or something? and make it a thread for all plant names lol

[Micromegas]

Another member linked this years ago it's a handy tool and also can be fun! Plant names give hints of how to remember them.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/botanary/

[solaritea]

Someone once told me that no one knows and no one agrees how to pronounce botanical names, so just say it with confidence and others will follow along.

[bogfrog]

Someone once told me that no one knows and no one agrees how to pronounce botanical names, so just say it with confidence and others will follow along.

Hahaha that's always been my approach, and others did follow along until they or I came across someone else who said it differently with more confidence than myself

[shonman]

Just read it like it Latin?

[sascacheuan]

Perhaps "cni" is similar to german word "Knie".

I learned a little latin at HighSchool, although grammar is a hell, pronounciation is so similar to spanish or italian. If you read it like as you are reading a spanish word, you can pronounce whatever latin name so accurate.

Edited November 23, 2013 by sascacheuan

[mutant]

yeah latin , too easy!

I actually cannot think of another way to pronounce it...problem is I cannot write it properly

kni-tho-sko-lous a-ko-ni-ti-fo-li-ous (k in "KNI" not silent as in german!)

tho as in 'theirs' not 'Therion'

[J Smith]

It's pronounced Cnidoscolus aconitifolius

[shonman]

Knights of Kni?

Mutant.....'Tho' as in 'Thelema'?

Edited November 23, 2013 by shonman

[mutant]

actually its not as in thelema or therion, I fucked it up, its the greek delta ...

[gtarman]

yeah latin , too easy!

I actually cannot think of another way to pronounce it...problem is I cannot write it properly

kni-tho-sko-lous a-ko-ni-ti-fo-li-ous (k in "KNI" not silent as in german!)

tho as in 'theirs' not 'Therion'

And that my friends, is one of many reasons why nobody speaks Latin anymore

[Torsten]

There is little ambiguity in botanical names as far as botany is concerned. Strict latin rules apply in most cases. That way the pronunciation is almost identical in all countries regardless of the native language. The problem arises when botanical names are used in horticulture as here the latin is moulded to the local language. English speaking botanists are also generally lazy as many english speaking countries [eg australia] do not require latin as a compulsory subject for sciences.

So the pronunciation google gices for the genus is an anglicised version, but is actually incorrect botanically. In latin you do not move parts of syllables when joining words. So if knide turns into Cnido, and skolos turns into scolus, then the s from skolos can't be moved to the end of Cnido as suggested by google.

Cnidoscolus was derived from the Greek knide (nettle), and skolos (thorn, prickle or sting). The initial c is silent, so pronunciation is ni-dos-kol-us

There are also no silent letters in latin.

The correct latin pronunciation would be kni-do-skol-us

but the acceptable anglicised horticultural use of the name would be ni-dos-kol-us

Google also states

with the accent on either the second or third syllable.

which is a total cop out. I only studied latin and not greek, so am not confident about which is correct, but only one is. It depends on how the greek syllables for skolos are separated and which side the consonant L falls. If it is skol-os then I think the accent is on third last [ie the second] syllable, but if it is sko-los then it is second last [ie third].

[mutant]

in modern greek it would have been sko-los , not skol-os

[IndianDreaming]

Another member linked this years ago it's a handy tool and also can be fun! Plant names give hints of how to remember them.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/botanary/

^ Excellent!!! I've always had trouble with things ending in 'aceae' or 'eae'- Such as: Fabaceae

[mutant]

^^^^

yeah

that 'eae' endings !!!! even if you know the right pronounciation, you get carried away with all those aeaeaea

[Torsten]

ae is a single letter, pronounced 'ee' or 'eh'.

so eae is pronounced 'ee ee' or 'ee eh' in latin, but in horticulture is usually drawn into a single syllable as a long 'ee'

as someone who is comfortable with latin pronunciation i find the anglicised bastardisation more complicated than the real thing as in most cases it simply does not make any sense. For example almost no one used to pronounce the last i in mai-den-i-i, so a 4 syllable word becomes a 3 syllable word. Imagine someone talking to you while randomly dropping syllables. It's painful.

But not all latin words come easy even to those who are much more familar with latin than me. Psilocybe is one that has many botanist stumped. Again because of its greek roots and the way this splits the syllables and hence changes to accent.

[trucha]

One complication is that there are two 'acceptable' sets of pronounciations for Latin. Both of them are used in the sciences with botany and medical terminology diverging. This is why, as many university students have no doubt already noticed, their botany teachers and their microbiology teachers often pronounce the same words differently.

The divergence came about when some scholars came to the conclusion that the ecclesiastical Latin that had been maintained by the Roman Catholic Church appeared to diverge from what they proposed as being closer to the original.

Since no native speakers of Latin exist no one can actually confirm how the original was pronounced.

Torsten brings up another complication which is the so-called "bastard" words that combine elements of Latin with Greek or other languages.

To FURTHER add a twist the code of botanical nomenclature specifies that words used in plant names should be pronounced in line with the rules from their language of origin. So, as example, bridgesii should be Bridges-e-e rather than Brid-guess-e-e since Bridges is an English word.

Despite that being said Latin-Greek names commonly are Latinized if it aids pronounciation. For instance Rhino-Kerous (from Nose and Horny) became Rhinoceros.

Edited November 28, 2013 by trucha

[mutant]

heheh

I am the biggest joke perhaps: I dont know the true latin pronounciations, never been taught this, so I always said those in my own way, but I understand some of the words in latin dionyms that are greek which makes it really exciting to me , and this not in a nationalistic kind of way!

I first started using latin dionyms when starting to research and pick wild mushrooms for food some 9 years ago..... Its interesting that we did not make this conversation a lot, how latin words are pronounced, and we ended up to call the latin names however each one felt like (of course, those who pronounced them utterly wrong got mocked a bit, secretly or publicly)

I used to pronounce psilocybe

"PS-ee-lo-see-B" [note in greek we have a Ψ , epsilon, a consonant that equals P+S= PS = Ψ ]

and then again most english speaking dudes pronounced it "Saa-ee-lo-see-b "

(P from psylo is silent in this use)

and even in greek, cause its mostly a word of greek start, we might also call it

'ps-ee-lo-See-vee-nees' or 'ps-ee-lo-Kee-vee-nees' (as in plural, many ones, it wold end in vee-nee in singular)

strange thing is I am not sure what's the "right" pronounciation of it , heh

I wonder if latin has the sound Ψ, epsilon, PS ...

***

a note, not relevant to english speaking folks, but still quite relevant.....

this has to do with whether languages have males , females and neutrals.

greek and german have it... french has only male and female not neutral I think... (funny is that german and greek are not the same, so a table or a pencil are neytral in greek but male in german, f.e.)

its always interesting to me how we always call Amanita a female , cause they end in "a" ? ...... Cantharellus a male, Salvia a female but "faskomilo" (AKA S. officinalis in common greek) is a neutral. Boletus a neutral, when you call it with the latin Boletus, but it is male, if you call it with the greek name "volitis" .

anyways, these are lost in languages that have not this, but its really interesting how words would be male and female, so it might be a bit more interesting and important than it seems...

latin have male and female endings and all

like

Amanita vaginata (female)

but

Boletus reticulatus

[notice the endings]

cheers T, look forward to this language thing - you're originally a german?

[mutant]

btw Rhi-no-ke-ros is exactly how we call it !!

[Torsten]

yeah, I am german. I also learnt latin mostly while still in germany, so correct pronunciation was easy as there is no attempt to blend it into german, while there seems to be real pressure to anglicise it in english speaking countries.

the gender thing really messes with my head with different languages. I often get pulled up by friends who wonder why I attribute certain genders to objects. eg the moon is male in german so i instinctively sometimes refer to the moon as 'he'. Doesn't help that the moon is female in french. The gender perception seems a different brain processing level to the language itself. eg, I have dreamt in english and think in english since about 5 years after my arrival in oz. But I still associate the gender the way I would in german. I often can't even think of the german word, but still know what gender I am associating.

I wonder why you thingk of Boletus as neutral. generally anything [in singular] ending in us is male, a is female, um is neuter.

Trucha, we were always made aware of the possible discrepancies in pronunciation. ie our teachers never claimed that one or other method was correct on contentious issues. ie studying latin in germany allows you to use it in religious institutions or in science ;)

[trucha]

Most people are actually unaware there are the two systems of pronouncing Latin words. Neither one is really more right than the other.

It was less a matter of there being any contention than it was just another expression of that recurrent trend in science for someone to suggest that there is some 'better' or 'more correct' way of doing something. The more recent one, not particularly recently of course, simply replaced the Ecclesiatical Latin for SOME users of Latin words, at least in medical terminology.

There has been a fair bit written on the subject if interested in seeing more details of the history.

I'd suggest that all that really matters is that we understand what word is being used when speaking or listening.

I too am guilty of frequently mangling Latin words and not caring (despite being taught better in school). A silly song from long ago had a line something like You say toma(y)to and I say toma(h)to.

For us non-native Latin speakers using Latin it is not much different.

[gtarman]

So, as example, bridgesii should be Bridges-e-e rather than Brid-guess-e-e since Bridges is an English word.

I should probably take the opportunity to ask whiile you're here Trucha (and/or Torsten or anybody really): how do you pronounce the '-e-e' part on the end of bridgesii, and which syllable is the emphasis placed on?

I'm certain I've been saying it wrong, but I always say BRIDGE-ess-eye. Actually I tend to just mumble it or say 'bridgey' to avoid looking like an idiot haha

[mutant]

^^^^

I would say bridgess-ee , same with anything ending in -ii

you would not say williasm-eye in Lophophora williamsii , right?

funny thing about the moon. male in german, female in french, neutral in greek, lol

astrologically speaking, the french are more right in this one . moon is female sun is male.

I wonder why you thingk of Boletus as neutral. generally anything [in singular] ending in us is male, a is female, um is neuter.

hmmmm I dont know, its not a rule I was using, its spontaneous. if we say it in greek, then its definately a he, but when using the latin, some regard it a he and some regard it a neutral. But I guess it some a bit natural to call it neutral in greek, since we refer to a foreign language .

didn't know um is the neutral.

So lets say Tricholoma caligatum . Isn't Tricholoma a female since its ending with an -a ? So shouldn't it end (the species name) in -a, like in Tricholoma caligata ?

Also, T, you said there are no silent letters in latin

that means Amanita rubescens is pronounced rou-bea-skea-ns and not ru*bea*sence ?? now that would be funny because me and a friend were making fun of some dude that pronounced it "rou-bea-skea-ns" . if this is the case, the joke's on us!