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Guest Mesqualero

Is there a point of no return in meditation?

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Guest DragonFyre
Originally posted by VENDEJO:

I guess it takes one to know one   biggrin.gif.  You're full of shit if you don't believe in a law greater than yourself.  I'd have to say Dragon Fyre was really trying hard to teach us about some gnostic learning he's interested in.  Sometimes it is difficult to use words to convey the learning that you have acquired within.  Sorry if we offended you.  

Sorry to steer this thread back toward the spiritual side but I just have another 2 cents I wish to share (sorry but if you dont like it dont read it!) Vendejo, that was exactly my intention - to share some knowledge with people (and I didnt share that much) whom I believed were open minded enough to admit that there IS a possibility that some of the things I was saying could just possibly be true instead of condemning something immidiately without ANY knowledge what-so-ever on the subject (apart from your own bias opinions)

I also didnt mean to offend anyone by saying that their beliefs were wrong or absurd, I just merely mentioned the fact that I personally never was one for any organised religion - however one study I have been doing is Heretecism (sp?) which has helped to change my mind somewhat. Personally I still believe most "modern day" religions are bullshit (to put it nicely) their teachings twisted and distored with time, dogma and ofcourse people but they were once true esoteric spiritual schools, with the 'true' spiritual teachings mainly kept secretive; ie. how the "mystics" came about - these teachings were not for the public but those wise enough to see past the "front" of the public teachings and to recognise the "hidden" meanings and parables...

maybe, just maybe if you looked into it you'd find the proof for yourself

then again maybe your paranoid ego (amungst MANY others) wont let you... something is obviously holding you back. Notice how also I wasnt "preaching" or asking people to take faith in something (besides that which one has proven to themselves to be the truth - theres no point having faith in something you've never seen or dont even know exists, though there is a difference between that and being narrow minded!) that theres no way to show physical hard evidence to prove this point in a place like this - its something you have to prove to YOURSELF thru patience, determindation and alot of hard work!!

You just have to look at the world today to see that we have lost our way... hopefully this will help *someone*, *anyone* as that was all I was trying to achieve!

once again just for the hell of it http://www.mysticweb.org/

those interested may find it very helpful, maybe it wont be your thing at all - you be the judge

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Hi Assassin

Sounds like you had exactly the same reaction

as me watching that clip,EXACTLY.I,ve watched it maybe four or five times and its sickening every time.Probably wont look at it again for a long while.

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back to Sant Mat meditation

tour details

melbourne & sydney, sant thakar singh will be giving several talks in the next few days..this is the inner light and sound meditation..all events are free of charge

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Guest DragonFyre

sound meditation? you mean mantras right?

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i'm not familiar with sant mat meditation...

mantra meditation is sometimes known as japa yoga..

meditation on the inner sound is sometimes known as nada yoga..

the first involves the generation of a subtle (inner) sound-form energy upon which the concentration is focused, and whose vibrations are imposed upon & resonate/reshape the consciousness..

the second is an awareness meditation upon naturally occuring phenomena..these forms of meditation seem to be becoming more popular, as their exponents claim they are superior, not relying on a 'crutch' (something self-generated, handed to you by a guru)..this practise of focused passive awareness furthers one's development of equanimity in the face of the world's transient phenomena.

i doubt that sant mat involves mantra..i'll probably attend the talk tomorrow night

[This message has been edited by coin (edited 17 June 2002).]

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Guest Mesqualero

Basically Sant Mat relies on the concept of a "Perfect Living Master" a being who has attained the highest possible level of awareness; in theory, someone who is a physical embodiment of the Ultimate Godhead.

Sant Mat practitioners are initiated by the Perfect Master to cleanse them of most or all of the accumulated karma.

The techniques for meditations is only known to initiates but involves: Focussing the awareness on the third eye while visualising the Perfect Master and also meditating on the Inner Sound which is sometimes called "the divine sound current"

Correct me if I'm wrong its been a while since I was studying this science...

I became interested in it in 1998 and wanted to take it further but they said the Master does not initiate people under 18 as I was then...basically because the path is very strict and needs extraordinary discipline...

we're talking no "exciting foods" no meat, no drugs, meditation beginning at 4am so i can understand how they would be hesitant to waste an initiation..they stress the importance of having lived life for a while..

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it's the 'perfect master' thing that irks me.. here's one person's take on that http://vm.mtsac.edu/~dlane/turban1.html

yeah, "the divine sound current" (nada brahma) is part of nada/shabda yoga..sant mat is said to be shabda (shabd) yoga..nada, shabda & laya (absorption) yoga are the three main branches of kriya yoga..

the differences elude me..?

[This message has been edited by coin (edited 18 June 2002).]

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A favorite philosopher of mine said it best I think:

“there is only one principle that can be defended under all circumstances and in all stages of human development. It is the principle: anything goes” tongue.gif

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Guest VENDEJO

Look through your wisdom eye.

Use it. It helps you and makes other people feel comfortable around you.

Rick Strassman, M.D. mentions it (linked to the pineal gland).

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Trying to be seriously objective Darklight..

But I think you have attacked Dragonfyre unfairly. Dragon shared some of his spiritual thoughts with us and you somehow took it as a personal insult to your own sense of reality.

Hey chill sister.

Its all about having an open mind.

Noooo.. dont put an evil spell on me

cause everythings cool. smile.gif

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Guest DragonFyre

anubian; thanx for your response but some people just dont want to be helped wink.gif atleast theres some info there for those that do though, I just hoped it helped someone or atleast gave them something to think about

but hey you cant change the world, but there's nothings stopping you from changing your own backyard...

and why is it people always take my words the wrong way or as personal insults?? I really think some people need to learn how to read english properly... or atleast realize that things do have alot of different meanings, depending on YOUR situation and circumstances in life, in different contexts, your ability to percieve things from others point of view... and the list goes on, better stop that tongue waggling now wink.gif or someone may get insulted again...

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Originally posted by anubian lights:

But I think you have attacked Dragonfyre unfairly.

Fair enough, you can think that wink.gif and good on you for sticking up for your beliefs.

Dragon shared some of his spiritual thoughts with us and you somehow took it as a personal insult to your own sense of reality.

No, Dragon informs us constantly that the rest of us are lacking if we don't share his beliefs.That's different. It's Dragons patronising certainty I find offensive, not his/her beliefs.

The belittling of forum members who have established a long term & valuable presence here by way of denying the validity of others beliefs ...arghhh let me paraphrase

...but some people just dont want to be helped

Could be more politely phrased to ' perhaps others don't find my advice applicable ', which latter statement doesn't contain the inference that the speaker is sole posessor of the Revealed Truth and the rest of us are a bunch of idiots who wouldn't recognise a good thing if it were next week's lotto numbers.

At the usual rate of one or more of these statements per paragraph my hackles rise. Perhaps instead of waiting for the rest of us to learn English, the extremely enlightened DF could better learn to express themselves, after all, requesting that the rest of the world change to accommodate one's own inadequacies is usually considered a sign of mental imbalance.

Dragonfyre and everyone else here is entitled to believe what they like. As I've said before. Dragonfyre can even believe that the rest of us really are intellectually inadequate if we don't agree with him/ her. But I'm a snarly bitch and there are some good ppl here and I won't take *that* statement at all nicely

Hey chill sister.

I'll try wink.gif

Its all about having an open mind.

Noooo.. dont put an evil spell on me

Shan't, probably can't, why would I? I respect your difference of opinion and am glad to hear it. Cheers to you, AL smile.gif

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i find some of what df says is interesting but like dl find the tone offensive.i,m curious if he is speaking gnosis or dogma?

t s t .

'nothing is true.everything is permissible'

-hassan i sabbah

according to robert anton wilson.

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Originally posted by Mesqualero:

On a number of occasions whilst meditating with my gf we  have reached a certain "height" or "level" that seems to be the point of no return.

Maybe like a certain kind of mental telepathy. sounds like a kundalini type experience. A merging of the yin and yang pushing your souls up to that height.

Now I don't know if I am being drastic or dramatic, but at a certain point we both decide to refrain from going any higher and afterwards we are quite sure that if we were to go any higher there is a possibility that we would not come back at all.

The fear of not coming back is a very real one. It is the reason we are afraid to die.

Has anyone experienced this? We are not really afraid of what lies beyond this "barrier" that we perceive, but apprehensive as to what may happen to us if we do decide to go as far as we can.

an experience i had was soul searching in india. left alone under the influence of psychedelics in a powerful ancient temple built upon a cliff i fully became aware of the barrier.

It isn't a barrier as such as there is nothing stopping us from going higher except our own apprehension. We are basically worried that to go any higher means to depart from the physical world altogether.

fear is the thing that stops us going higher.

Departure from the physical is the final comprehension of mortality and death.

We are definitely still connected to this reality and for the moment have no wish of "leaving" (whatever that means) even if we could as there are still many things we have to accomplish in our lives.

This reality is an illusion. But so is the concept of death.

Maybe I am just full of shit and this is my ego talking, my ego being afraid of finally being beaten by the SELF.

you make so much sense though.

But I am not sure... maybe we will know when the time is right to go as far as we can possibly go..

Infinite peace

Mesqualero.

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Guest DragonFyre

Originally posted by Darklight:

No, Dragon informs us constantly that the rest of us are lacking if we don't share his beliefs. That's different. It's Dragons patronising certainty I find offensive, not his/her beliefs.

The belittling of forum members who have established a long term & valuable presence here by way of denying the validity of others beliefs

Once again DL you have proved my point wink.gif this time on the english subject, people taking THEIR view of the information and taking what they want to hear not the truth

It was NEVER my intention to belittle your beliefs in anyway, I simply stated that in my opinion that modern day religion was full of dogma (which it is, believe it or not) after 2000 years you honestly think that the teachings from Christianity wouldnt have been distorted by man? (3000+ years for bhuddists!) its a PROVEN fact in ANY classroom that when a person whispers a message in a persons ear then passes it on, by the time its gone thru 20 or 30 people its a completely different message!!! let alone after 2000-3000 YEARS. And besides most true teachings were given in parables or secret... which gives even more reason for them to be full of Dogma. And just for the record I do believe that Jesus and Bhudda and all the rest of the masters to walk the earth did so and did give teachings Im not denying that in any way Im just stating that in this day and age the teachings are no longer the same as when they were given. Now once again I state that all I was trying to do was help and not you for that matter, so I dont see why we should be having this arguement right now, the only reason Im replying is for the others on this forum it may help as I know your too 'stuck in your ways' to change and thats what life is about, change and learning. I was simply offering some information to someone I thought MIGHT find it as useful as I had, and just may have a REAL spiritual experience beyond that of this pathetic material physical plane... I mean really, do you think its any skin off my back if you dont believe me and think Im full of it?! HA I think YOUR the one whom likes the attention too much (just a little something thrown back at you that u like to brand others with smile.gif the real truth can hurt DL... I dont know how many times I've heard you state "time to get the claws out") maybe one of the reasons you dont wanna look into it is because your mind is sooo clouded by ego's and emotions and negativity that wont let you see the truth STARING YOU IN THE FACE...

I not once said for you to take my word on all this, as I know that most of it would sound like utter garbage to someone so attached to the physical plane. As I stated you can prove all this to yourself... with a little patience, determination, focus + concentration, if your open minded enough to want to experience something new that is

Perhaps instead of waiting for the rest of us to learn English, the extremely enlightened DF could better learn to express themselves, after all, requesting that the rest of the world change to accommodate one's own inadequacies is usually considered a sign of mental imbalance.

I never asked you to accomodate me in any way shape or form DL, not at all... simply put (as stated b4) internal learning is almost impossible in most cases to put into words, as there ARENT words for it. You see the crude english language has been formed around mutual experiences in this plane and most things truely spiritual arent a mutual or communial experience its something personal and to remotely accurately try and put this into english words would mean I would have to write a 300 page essay instead of a paragraph to even give you an idea of some of the things its possible to achieve, as most things are beyond your wildest imagination and have to be experienced and percieved personally to be understood (if at all)

Dragonfyre and everyone else here is entitled to believe what they like. As I've said before. Dragonfyre can even believe that the rest of us really are intellectually inadequate if we don't agree with him/ her. But I'm a snarly bitch and there are some good ppl here and I won't take *that* statement at all nicely

Damn right I am intitled to believe what I want as is anyone else and nothing you can do or say will change that, all my beliefs are formed on something SOLID on actual experiences not a handed-down belief from thousands of years ago. And the last thing I think about anyone here is that they are lackin in intelligence or I wouldnt have bothered giving the information in the first place it was BECAUSE most people here are quite smart that I did... I was raised in a family of Roman Catholics (so I KNOW about religion) and renounced everything spiritual for a lot of years and honestly I wasnt any dumber than I am now, my eyes are just more open to the REAL world from the spiritual experiences I have had recently the past few months since taking up gnosis/esotericism and it was something I thought could be a valuable thing to introduce to this forum for those whom wanted to experience something truely spiritual

Sorry you dont agree.... but thats your right wink.gif as its mine to disagree with you (in this matter) now why dont u stop feeding your ego's n get back to the plants smile.gif its what your good at... wink.gif

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Guest DragonFyre

after all if I can get to the astral and get true spiritual teachings from ACTUAL spiritual beings and masters... I dont see why most people here can't either with a little effort wink.gif

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ah,the one true way.

back to robert anton wilson who's work challenged me to find a belief system that included what everyone was experiencing,not just my own gnosis.

you have a certain experience.

others have a totally diferent experience.

surely we can only claim to have had those experiences.the rest is conjecture.

it is obvious you find value in your experiences,i hope you will tell us about them sometime,your hinting creates a certain

attitude or something about your posts,i'm too tired to word this properly,just trying to explain my feelings.

t s t .

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Guest DragonFyre

TST, honestly I would love to do nothing more than indulge you in some of my experience but as I've stated before most of the learnings you recieve are a personal thing and one of the first things you will be taught is the necessity of keeping these things secret... revealing how to achieve these experiences is a different matter altogether and something you MUST do to advance on the path (sacrifice for humanity) like I said ANYONE can do this with enough mental discipline... and anyone working toward destroying the ego's would have already partially awakened their consciousness (to an extent) which helps to clear your dreaming and actually achieve the astral as it can be very hard at first but within the first WEEK of practising I was having dream experiences and started lucid dreaming (knowing your dreaming but still not knowing your in the astral - kinda like being half way there) now I havent been able to remember my dreams for years before this, since I was a kid and like I said within the first week, with a little help from the 'remembering dreams' mantra (Raom Gaom) I was having some wild experiences, definately enough to let me know to continue with the work... so that says something, atleast to me

besides what harm is there in trying? apart from the fact that you just might achieve something

and sorry that you found my tone offensive but by now you MUST have realized that Im blunt and straight to the point and put things as I see them or experience them as in this case, I wont lollygag and prance about the truth dressing it up in pretty words to stop from hurting overs fragile egos as I find THIS accomodating others inadequacies

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I don't intend any of this to sound snide -- remember, it's 5:30am here, adjust tone accordingly wink.gif

I'm still not sure what it is you actually believe in, but earlier you spoke of astral travelling, different dimensions/planes, learning from "spiritual beings, angels(masters) and devine beings"...all of which is fine if that's what crickles yer crackle. I just don't understand why you feel it neccesary to represent *your* experiences as objective fact. If I told you that I had been kidnapped by aliens in my sleep or while tripping, you guys would probably give me hell and rightly so, no matter how strongly I might feel that it happened. I personally don't see a distinction between that and some of the things you're talking about.

...and this bit makes me cringe:

>>>and for those interested, Quantum Physics is the study of the astral planes and the other dimensions out there - The Astral plane being part of the 5th Dimension, the other part of that dimension being the mental plane which is just above the astral

and all this has been scientifically proven so stick that up ya all those non-believers

Oh really...

(yes, that was snide but come on)

>>>have a REAL spiritual experience beyond that of this pathetic material physical plane...

This is something I've noticed with a lot of "believers" (in any religious/mystical circle)...a sort of resentment of the physical world. I've never been able to relate to it and I'm really surprised to find it at a website dedicated to the complexity and mystery found in nature.

And from your last post:

>>>one of the first things you will be taught is the necessity of keeping these things secret...

...and immune to any critical thought. Slippery slope...

>>>and anyone working toward destroying the ego's would have already partially awakened their consciousness

Destroying the ego to awaken the consciousness? We must have radically different definitions of these words then as I have always used them almost interchangeably.

>>>besides what harm is there in trying?

None, as long as you do your best to remain objective about it. People who are too eager to accept "odd" ideas are often the same people who twist them to suit there own needs. If we could have disproven the existence of Atlantis in the 30's, WWII might have been avoided (Hitler believed the aryan race originated in Atlantis)...it's a bit of a stretch, I know, but I hope you understand my point...

>>>I wont lollygag and prance about the truth dressing it up in pretty words to stop from hurting overs fragile egos as I find THIS accomodating others inadequacies

This is pretty stupid, IMHO. I was raised as (or atleast "by") a Jehovah's Witness (feel free to point and laugh wink.gif) and they liked to bang on about "the truth" too. It is no less a dogma coming from you.

The only reason I write all this is because I know how dangerous reckless faith can be. Don't let anyone convince you that fence-sitting or scepticism are bad things. Vigilance...

[This message has been edited by A480 (edited 25 June 2002).]

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Phew, thanx tst and A480 smile.gif that's just what I've been trying to say for weeks. I wasn't going to reply to DF cos I got tired of repeating the same points. I was beginning to think I wasn't making any sense...

FWIW tst, if you think you've been kidnapped by aliens that's fine wink.gif and probably all you'd cop here is a gentle ribbing ( we've all learned to toughen our skins up here after a while eh smile.gif ) for which the rib owner might also cop a sharp tap on the head, depending on whose around smile.gif

And if you or anyone else wants to believe we've all been kidnapped by aliens that's fine too. But the mintue someone suggests we're all thicker than peasoup b/c we won't admit to our alien kidnapping as explained by them then I start to think someone being offensive.

Mmmm, Robert Anton Wilson...did bad things to my head reading that when I was a teenager smile.gif maybe this is all his fault ( *LOL* ) after that it was quantum physics, anthropology, Nimbin and biotechnology. But it started with Barbie...even my Barbie had problems with consensus reality, but at least she had a good time...

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I have been watching this thread (not closely) just hoping it would go away. I easily get bored with people preaching from their soapboxes and usually most people just listen and don't reply much. So I have wondered why this thread keeps on going and going. It is certainly not because it is interesting. It is simply because dragonfyre keeps 'mildly' offending people who then feel the need to reply.

Lets face it, dragonfyre is the only one who knows what the REAL TRUTH ™ is and none of us are going to make any difference to that simply because he doesn't have any respect for our opinions. But as for any truth, there is more than one perception of it and dragonfyre knows he isn't always right (right?!?).

While I am way tolerant of weird spiritual ideas, I have my limit when such ideas infringe on or insult other people or other spiritual ideas. Freedom of speech and the freedom of spiritual expression is only REAL freedom until it impinges on the freedom of others. Dragonfyre, you are welcome to present your beliefs and ideas here, but do not belittle or insult others. We treat you with respect and expect the same from you. This thread hasn't gone anywhere with any substance for a while, so lets bury it before someone gets hurt....

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Guest DragonFyre

Thanx for putting in your bias opinion about me "preaching" Torsten but sorry your all wrong there, was NEVER trying to preach just offer some advice on the astral which is the main learning plane for spiritual things... but then again u can think what you like... and by looking at all religions you see the common truths... and most people here Im sure would be familiar with the aborigionals sacred dream stories... funny that huh

I'm still not sure what it is you actually believe in, but earlier you spoke of astral travelling, different dimensions/planes, learning from "spiritual beings, angels(masters) and devine beings"...all of which is fine if that's what crickles yer crackle. I just don't understand why you feel it neccesary to represent *your* experiences as objective fact. If I told you that I had been kidnapped by aliens in my sleep or while tripping, you guys would probably give me hell and rightly so, no matter how strongly I might feel that it happened. I personally don't see a distinction between that and some of the things you're talking about.

The reason you dont know what I believe in is because I have never stated it, which once again brings me to the point on preaching??? And the distinction comes in where ANYONE can go to the astral anytime with enough awakened consciousness (and DO everynight in dreams) when they know how, not everyone can get abducted by aliens and my friend if you read my posts you'll see I said most of this would sound like utter garbage and there is no physical proof (but it IS possible to prove it to yourself) for an internal spiritual experience apart from actual perception and going thru it yourself which is what I was just trying to possibly help some people do by telling them about it in the first place, there are soo many different ways to achieve the astral and I was leaving it upto them to go about it how they want (not "preaching" wink.gif)

>have a REAL spiritual experience beyond that of this pathetic material physical plane...

This is something I've noticed with a lot of "believers" (in any religious/mystical circle)... a sort of resentment of the physical world. I've never been able to relate to it and I'm really surprised to find it at a website dedicated to the complexity and mystery found in nature.

easily explained, see I have no resentent toward our planet or life, I love plants and Devas (plants spirits) but I have a resentment toward what humanity has DONE to the planet and other life and the fact of having to live in a world that is in the state its in (very negative) but I still have a love for humanity at the same time which is very conflicting I know, but these "feelings" or ego's are really negative (or lunar) and nothing truely makes sense when you think through the ego's... so as you can see Im neither "enlightened" or more advanced than anyone else here Im just aware of the state Im in and the state of others where most people arent and thats one of the hardest thing to do, truely realize what state you, humanity and the plantet is in...

and a great quote from the bible (roughly)

'Man know yourself and you will know the world and the universe'

so how can self discovery be a wrong thing?

its like I said, whether or not anyone here believes me or not its no skin off my back and what need do I have to lie about it, especially to the people here?!? was just trying to offer some new info I found helpful if you think its rubbish then discard it, its your choice

anyways, will shut up now wink.gif

Peace be with everyone smile.gif

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