IndianDreaming Posted August 14, 2013 ^ - What you just wrote sounds to be the spot on definition of 'Qualia' or 'Quale' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whoami Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) never gonna give you up Edited September 12, 2013 by whoami Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whoami Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) ... oops accidental double post Edited August 28, 2013 by whoami Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whoami Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) never gonna let you down Edited September 12, 2013 by whoami Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IndianDreaming Posted August 28, 2013 I give a shit about other peoples gardens, I enjoy seeing their gardens because they are better than mine, and I find that motivating and inspirational, and yes, when I tell them wow - that's a nice garden, I'm sure they get a 'back pat' out of it. Some people didn't grow up with the support they needed in life, and try to garner it any old how they can get it, be it bragging about a garden, or by hacking on gardening posts - we're all the same my friend, we're just looking at each other from our side of the fence and often shaking our heads at each other... or smiling and throwing fruit at each other In a world where everyone is taught to be an individual, it's hard to be completely selfless because eventually the selfish people suck you dry. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whoami Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) never gonna sing this song again (just one last time) Edited September 12, 2013 by whoami 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yeti101 Posted August 28, 2013 Well, if you are really into philosophy then being able to examine oneself in a public setting and putting forward an argument can be the same thing. For the most part I like to leave discussion of motives out of philosophy because they cloud the issue. I might have completely selfish and egotistical reasons for constructing a post (or even a whole career) putting forward some idea, but my motivations don't make my arguments any more valid or not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whoami Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) slash is a fatty Edited September 12, 2013 by whoami Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yeti101 Posted August 28, 2013 In one way I want to say that we might just have to 'agree to disagree' about the relevance of the subject vs the mechanism behind us wanting to post - I feel this way a lot about some philosophy vs psychology discussions. And you are probably at least partially right. My point is that a passion for Truth and the need to publicly big-note oneself are not mutually exclusive No doubt great discoveries have come from a place of deep self-interest. My response is: So what? Personally I find the whole hypothesis is over-run with dubious assumptions. The notion of "perceived identity in a public context" assumes that there is a 'public' out there to begin with. If there are no other minds in existence then examining ones self in public would be an odd exercise. To steal/paraphrase a joke sent in a letter to Bertrand Russell (I think): Dear Sir, I am a solipsist. I am surprised there are not more of us... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whoami Posted August 28, 2013 hmm, I think were just discussing the same thing in different ways. cus I'm not disagreeing with you there. anyway ill post a link to the Vsauce video, if people see that they might understand better what I'm getting at Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bogfrog Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) anyone here familiar with the YouTube channel 'Vsauce'? I watched one of Michael's videos not long ago about nostalgia. among the numerous interesting concepts he discussed on that episode, one that I found most fascinating was how he described our motives behind saying the things we say on facebook and other public forums on the internet.. basically it came down to this. our main objective in ranting and raving and expressing ourselves online is so we can view ourselves in a public setting. it gives us an opportunity to judge ourselves in a public context. now people might disagree with that but I think its a hundred percent true. there is no intent whatsoever to share information and argue or just generally converse and express onesself online that is a completely selfless motive, if that makes sense. I'm doing it now for example, part of my reasons for writing this is not only to learn how other people feel about the idea. on a SUBCONSCIOUS level its got nothing to do with how you might perceive what I'm trying to say, but more to do with myself and my own percieved identity in a public context that makes me even want to post to begin with and that is why so many people unintentionally brag or boast about their choices and accomplishments etc for no real reason other than to examine ourselves in a public setting. That vid you posted above doesn't cover this topic. Interesting idea. Not sure if i wholly agree, although there definately seems to be some sense to it. If you can direct me to the right vid i will watch it and consider further I think the driving force behind alot of us posting and continuing to post here is connection. Like minds seek other like minds. I don't post anywhere else, so i cant comment on the nature of other forums, but i sense alot of kinship here. I don't think everyone is here to brag about their acheivements either, although yeah, that does happen sometimes of course, but to me it seems many people are here purely for the chance to interact with other people who care about the same things they care about. Edited August 28, 2013 by Ceres 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Optimystic Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) I used to have this roomate... and most of the time, he was a total piece of shit but one thing he always said that I can't argue with ... is... "It's not what you say, it's how you say it" ... lol that fuckers voice plays in my head everytime i go on an egotistical rant hahahahah I came up with my own version that I say to myself which is"It's not what you do, it's why you do it"... eh Edited August 28, 2013 by Spine Collector Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Optimystic Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) I hafta to agree with your sentiments Whoami, but I also have to say that there are plenty of people who are misunderstood... often times cause they don't reveal who they really are on the interent.. There is no bunch more misunderstood than Highly Intelligent folk... some of them want to hide it to fit in, others express so much that they don't seem "likeable"... and some just realy aren't that smart at all hahaha ... but just cause someone is egotistical and seemingly unable to walk in the shoes of another, doesn't mean they aren't smart... shit even I can look back at some of my posts from a year ago and say to myself "What the fuck was going through my head lalalalalalal ? " Nothing speaks "Intelligence" to me, more than someone who expresses their willingness to learn and understand... but thats just me... those peeps who know everything.. baah.. I want another opinion please ... but everyone is gonna specialize in one interest or two, that is, they know ALOT about one topic and maybe no so much about other things they find interesting, but maybe not as interesting as say, cactus farming its such an easy place to put out a line of bullshit, or to repeat some shit I just read two windows over lol theres not an easier place to conceal motives...It might be easy to perceive that every moral highground and every egotistical rant on the internet might fit into that category but they might be totally focused on impressing some girl or maybe they just went through some shit and this is their proverbial makeup... Shy ppl tend to be more expressive on the internet.. i've seen it function like a drug/stimulant in some ppl I know to be shy in person lol Sometimes I think that some ppl seem fake to me, cause they want to impress someone they want to get a cactus from lol Personally I hate users.. i've been over giving and used most of my life and so at times I feel like I get protective but I hate that feeling too so sometimes I just express and reflect for the sole purpose of finding my own happy medium, eh at the end of the day, the way someone expresses themselves has alot to do with how others will percieve their character im not one to really give a shit what ppl think and it leaves me with less actual 'friends', more or less ... . but the ones who are left tend to be more genuine...at least in my view and when I really 'think' that someone does respect me as a human being, and didn't have to "qualify" me to see if im worthy of their likeness, I begin to care what they think about me... I have to say there is alot of that, here at SAB and I appreciate it alot.. I might have a skewed perception of westerners, but I also live in the bible belt and im often surprised by genuine ppl, especially out in the country... more often I feel judged but I make it easy for ppl to judge me we are a social species it should be noted that its impossible to please everyone... thats why I say I think the peace and love "movement" is not natural, though the motives and the emotions are very natural... but we all need our chaos or we'll go even crazier... and afterall, we do all have to live together in a way, even if at more than arms distance... I find that if one spends too long trying to be an everyone pleaser, they'll eventually find themselves greatly disappointed with ppl and it can cause depression... so much for that sales career eh I guess if you really enjoy being fake its okay I managed to sell my services for years but it was less than a decade before I started to feel "Fake" and I spent five years after that re-discovering myself... In regards to peoples gardening skills, sometimes someones fabulous garden has more to do with their climate zone than their actually being more skilled than anyone else at providing a healthy environement for their plants... but everyone can learn something from everyone ... I like when those types express themselves... sometims I just think "they must be stomed" lol, but when its a regular part of their character I just don't make any effort to interact with them.. not against interacting with them, i just keep it minimal cause they are still growing but who isn't? those types are fun to watch tho... I get a bit of stimulation when they manage to surprise me with kindness and shit... I can't help but judge I guess I must be part human any time I catch myself in an overly judgemental state, or if my opinion gets rather strong or heated, I tend to step back and say to myself "Seek first to understand"... just my way of putting myself into what I perceive to be the more beneficial emotion... as its quite obvious that not everyone has had the benefit of experiencing the great lesson which one can obtain from humility... or maybe its just me... Sometimes I don't think I could find enough humbleness Edited August 28, 2013 by Spine Collector 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Optimystic Posted August 28, 2013 somewhat off the topic but certainly relatable a quote from Galileo "Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regard to matters requiring thought: the less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them, while on the other hand to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgment upon anything new." 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whoami Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) more boobs, some are lopsided. cant do much about it though Edited September 12, 2013 by whoami 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Optimystic Posted August 30, 2013 (edited) @ Whoami, this reminded me a little bit about what you are saying.... as it relates to the elaborate myths we decorate our identities with We tend to think of ego, well some of us, as this little fucktard that lives inside of us but in reality, what it has always been, is a survival tool... and now that we are in big cities with supermarkets and internet access flowing around every corner, well, our egos just haven't made all the complete adjustements yet... being that the ego is no longer required to usher out a response that might catch us a meal or save us from a predator.. and so we end up using it in all sorts of ways... and meanwhile, the once ultra valuable myths which sustained the presence and growth of large societies is beginning to die and making way for the next round of identity stimulation eh Edited August 30, 2013 by Spine Collector Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whoami Posted September 1, 2013 (edited) no way sonny jim Edited September 12, 2013 by whoami 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thelema Posted September 4, 2013 Hi, with regards to the idea of free will and qualia, both of these seem to me to centre around the (largely) hidden assumption of agency with representations. Personally, I think that these 2 ideas dissolve quite neatly when contemplating the "anti-representationalist" viewpoint (eg. see Rorty's "Philosophy and the mirror of nature"). These ideas, haven't really sunk in to the strata of academic philosophical conversation, let alone the lay-people's conceptions. It seems to me that academic philosophy is still labouring under the shadow of Kant's Critique of pure reason, at least in the West, and that the "lay-person", when it comes down to filtered cultural ideas that inform the large part of pre-theoretical intuitions, is still under the operation of Descartes Meditations. At the forefront, however, the most exciting up-to-date ideas to come out of recent deep meta-philosopy are these ideas of anti-representationalism and anti-agency, and the understanding that nonetheless we probably operate with these concepts of representation and agency on the mythological level of a functional "as-if" useful fiction, as we do in constructing a remembered self-concept with the construction of personal narratives. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Optimystic Posted September 5, 2013 Here is that guy from all those kabbala vids talking about an interesting experiment... i've been wanting to look more into it but I have way too many windows open on my screen lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yeti101 Posted September 6, 2013 (edited) Hey Thelema, thanks for the contribution. I confess that I haven't read much Rorty (and that I may not have the time to do so for the next 6 months ) On what (very) little I know of it I have trouble seeing how anti-representationalism dissolves Chalmers' 'hard' problem of consciousness. My understanding is that it might be just the opposite - Chalmers himself is sometimes seen as an anti-representationalist. More importantly, thought experiments using inverted qualia, eg colour Spectrum Inversion, are seen as critical of both Representation and Physicalism. Does anti-representationalism still allow that there is something it is like to experience the colour red? If so, does it give us reason to think that the phenomenal quality of this experience can supervene upon the physical structure of our brains (as opposed to Chalmers who says not)? My knowledge of Rorty (or lack thereof) means I can't really answer these questions, but I suspect the answer is 'no'. Been too long since I read enough pure Philosophy of Mind as opposed the the language/meaning stuff I'm currently bogged down in. Will have to think more about this and get back to you. Edited September 6, 2013 by Yeti101 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thelema Posted September 7, 2013 I believe anti-rep would answer that there is not something it is like to have an experience of something. That's what you have to unravel before you truly get anti-rep. There is no phenomenal quality that can be counted as a representation in a brain. Thus no distinction between the noumenal and phenomenal. Anti-rep would argue that what a philosopher is doing in this thought experiment is trying to construct a theory of the subjective using public symbols, therefore undermining its own purported project, or at least being a self-created problem generating an indissoluble conflict of semantic content because the very methodology of the experiment supposes the investigator can step outside of his subjectivity and examine it and name it as such. Representations and quales are thus illusory constructs perpetuated by an unconscious improper use of language. Yeah? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thelema Posted September 25, 2013 Wow! Anti-representationalism completely killed this thread! Or maybe it was ME that killed it LOL. But you see, that's exactly what Anti-rep is meant to do. It completely dissolves all questions of philosophy of mind. Now, we can still talk about Ethics... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumpstarter Posted September 25, 2013 http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rorty/ Interesting read indeed, thanks Thelema. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites