Out of here

[rkundalini]

Quote from Torsten:

I am sick of people using MY space to do me harm.[...]If anyone has a problem with me deleting people, then feel free to open your own forums. This is NOT a public forum anymore

In light of this statement, I resign from the forums, for the time being at least. Until the time when we have a site run on democratic principles by and for the Australian entheobotany community, anyone who wants to reach me can do it can get me at [email protected] (bear in mind this is not encrypted).

This is not about "taking sides", it's about rejecting warfare-oriented thinking in the first place. This site was set up and is maintained and paid for by Torsten, and its results in terms of community have been fantastic, great effort Torsten. However it is clear that now that we have a community (outside of Northern NSW), it can't afford to be so vulnerable to the effects of personal conflicts between key figures. To do this the responsibility and the pressure needs to be spread out amongst a group of responsible people, and measures put in place to prevent any one person (or coalition) bringing personal issues into the activities of the community.

(edited to fix email address, hushmail shuts down accounts after 3 weeks inactivity)

[This message has been edited by rkundalini (edited 04 March 2002).]

[gomaos]

Well I do agree with Rkundalini that it really is inappropriate for the forums to be so easily affected by the Torsten-Mulga personality clash.

Everytime THAT WANKER MULGA LETS A FART,

THE FORUMS AND EVERYTHING ELSE SHAKE.

That IS wrong.

On the other hand I already see torsten calculating.

If too many "Academics" leave, he may really consider shutting down.

Not that I care a lot whether someone is an academic or not, but I know Torsten would.

First Wira, now rkundalini. Who next?

My attitude is: There'll be new one's.

[HyperSpaceCowboy]

It's a beautiful day.

Love, peace and chicken grease.

[waterdragon]

i haven't got a problem with mulga etc being on the forums. it makes for a nice opportunity to voice my displeasure at his tactics. but then i can see the need to edit some of his posts too. of course the new setup isn't going to please everyone but it has yet to affect me even slightly in terms of access or philosophy. as for the site being on a war footing - some people don't seem to understand that war is often not a choice.

[Torsten]

Rkundalini. I respect your decision and expected as much. You were one of the main reason why I didn't take this step many months ago. I share your ideals, but I have run out of strength to deal with the Mulga issue on a daily basis (I am sure you are not aware of even a fraction of what goes on). The changes made to the forums do not affect anyone else other than Mulga and you yourself agreed a few months ago that banning him became neccessary. I have no intentions of using the restrictions for anything other than to keep Mulga and his issues off these forums. In fact, as soon as I can work out how to make the sendmail function work in this pieceofcrap UBB software (sendmail works for all other software), I will lift the restrictions. The new subscription rules are designed to show up a users IP before he is added to the forum, rather than having to clean up after an intrusion.

I also agree that my ban of will3 (Julian) was not fair, but then again, neither was his conduct towards me. I have already told him that he will be reinstated in a week or two once things have calmed down (regardless of his attitude).

I have never intended to use the forums in any other way than as a free place for discussion, but I am also not going to be constantly crapped on by other people. if I stuck by purely democratic principles I would only have two choices. Put up with all the crap from Mulga, or shut the board down. I thought the compromise would be appreciated.

You may also recall that one option that is usually used by UBB admin is to ban IP numbers of offensive users. This would have been a very effective route to eliminating the Mulga problem, but as he is on the Optus ISP, it would have affected several other users. This option is still open to me, but I know that Chemical Shaman (among others) would be most pissed off at this solution.

This whole issue is open to discussion. What is not open to discussion is the decision on mulga. All changes were made in response to his intrusions. Maybe it is time for those who want a free and fair forum to apply their influence to keep him out of here - but I guess that is asking too much. It is much easier to complain about how unfair I am.

[Torsten]

actually, come to think of it, who is on the Optus ISP these days??

I am inclined to reverse all the changes and use IP barring instead.

[Darklight]

t's about rejecting warfare-oriented thinking in the first place.

Arkay I'm surprised you don't even try to understand that this has been attempted by Torsten so many times that it must seem blatantly pointless to him, if not an acutal abuse of his trust. At some point other decisive action has to take place: one can't just go on endlessly pursuing unproductive negotiations because the paradigm fits in with the way life should be but isn't.

It strikes me that very few of the longer term EB ppl take into consideration how far the site owner had to be pushed over such a period of time to take these measures and make these changes. Arkay I really don't think you know Torsten that well, or perhaps we have a squeaky wheel/ grease sitch happenning where the sheer weight of some ppls mailboxes are perhaps unduly influencing their opinions without their taking into consideration that a lack of concerted letter-writing from other parties involved somehow implies a heavy conscience ( when it might well imply having more productive things to do )

The debate online might not always look as you might wish to see it, but how many ppl here have considered exactly how much crap they'd be willing to cop- and still run a public site- before their patience wore perilously thin? The quoted portion of your initial post looks more like an outburst of complete frustration than the typical product of the SAB keyboard, and while its vehemence is well out of line with the bloke I know, jeez I can well understand why he'd lose it like that for even a moment

Torsten and Daniel are, as anyone with half an idea as to how much work setting up and running a website, a business, a botanic gardens and several research projects would know- incredibly patient. So how much hassle would it take to piss Torsten off this much, you reckon? Too much to call him an arsehole for occasionally leting off steam?

However it is clear that now that we have a community (outside of Northern NSW), it can't afford to be so vulnerable to the effects of personal conflicts between key figures.

I would have thought this diaspora would mean that the EB community IS less vulnerable to such disputes. This is not the end of the world though it seems to be considered such. Every group and organisation in history has its fraught moments. They also recover more often than not and go on to do other things, whichis what I hope you'll do arkay.

Even the most grudging amongst us would have to admit the SAB site and forums have played a big part in extending nationwide EB interest. c'mon, fess up

If Torsten had wanted to be an abject bastard I'm sure he could have directed his energies towards procuring a monopoly on information and resources that *didn't* involve the site changes proposed. No idea what it might be, its a fair bet he hasn't thought about it either. But other courses of action would be possible no doubt and the proposed changes seem to me to be the most reasonable way to lessen one aspect of the constant harrassment I know he's been under.

The fact that after all this hassle he has proposed a very clear take-it-or-leave-it stance indicates that other ppl are, and have always been free to pool their efforts and do something *uninterrupted* somewhere else. That some ppl are taking such a stance as a personal slap in the face shows how heavily over-reliant on his efforts we have all been. Over reliance on one person is *not* a sustainable way for any movement or organisation to survive through time. And it's lazy and bloody unfair.

And at the end of it, throughout all the name calling, innuendos and slanders thrown his way, that he's still here running a gratis site for people, and others are running away says something. People are of course free to go where they want/ can, especially online, but their motivations and justifications still fascinate me. And it often takes less work to run than stay.

To do this the responsibility and the pressure needs to be spread out amongst a group of responsible people, and measures put in place to prevent any one person (or coalition) bringing personal issues into the activities of the community.

Gosh, then we'll have the first community of its kind in living history who've managed it then. When you've achieved this email me and I'll fax you a fourex and nominate you for a Nobel. Thank you for drawing this hitherto neglected facet of social planning to my attention, I'll take to my books at once until I have the problem solved.

It's easy to describe a butterfly arkay, but can you make one?

[This message has been edited by Darklight (edited 05 March 2002).]

[Guest VENDEJO]

It's a shame you're leaving for the time being Rkundalini. Please note what Torsten said about reinstating this as a public forum.

 

Originally posted by Torsten:

actually, come to think of it, who is on the Optus ISP these days??

I am inclined to reverse all the changes and use IP barring instead.

I don't think IP barring is a wise move. Couldn't someone, such as Mulga or Julian, use different ISP's by using (publicly-accessible) computers at Uni or internet cafes for example?

How about accepting criticism in a way that's not taken personally? Such as it being criticism of your business (S.A.B.) and not yourself. Most successful business managers cop a LOT of abuse one way or another, and choose to accept it as part of the way things work in the business community.

(re: criticism, remember it Is better to give than receive).

... and Good on You for all your hard work!

It is being recognised.

[This message has been edited by VENDEJO (edited 05 March 2002).]

[t st tantra]

if you ban optus customers only,could they take legal action against you?

t s t .

[Torsten]

Originally posted by VENDEJO:

How about accepting criticism in a way that's not taken personally? Such as it being criticism of your business (S.A.B.) and not yourself. Most successful business managers cop a LOT of abuse one way or another, and choose to accept it as part of the way things work in the business community.

Well, SAB is very dear to me. If you want me to run it as a business only then a lot of changes would need to be made - including much higher prices, smaller range of goods etc. if you put your heart into something it is different than just running a business.

In any case, Mulga did not stop at the business side of things. He attacked me on very personal aspects too, including my ethnicity.

The criticism isn't limited to this forum anyway. I don't know where he finds the time, but he plasters this issue all over the internationla forums and mailing lists too. Not to mention his hours and hours of pissing in people's ears locally. I simply don't have the time to deal with it all.

If you throw enough mud some of it will stick.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by t st tantra:

if you ban optus customers only,could they take legal action against you?

t s t .

no. however I am considering contacting optus to get him removed. I am seeking advice from other ISPs on this.

[Torsten]

Darklight, rK wasn't criticising me as such. He was criticising my outburst. And he is right. I lost my temper, and what i said and did wasn't the right thing to do.

I am trying to find an alternative solution.

It's a wonder what an impact a weeks worth of sleep can make

[gomaos]

Originally posted by Torsten:

In any case, Mulga did not stop at the business side of things. He attacked me on very personal aspects too, including my ethnicity.

Yeah, that's what I HATE.

You mentioned him being a racist in another post about a year ago, and that's one of the reasons I immediately took a stand against him.

I absotulety hate racist, whatever race they may belong to.

There was one dumb incident at eb2 as well.

One bloke, I think he was from new zealand, knew I was of german origin, and while we were sitting and talking, (WD was there and others), he repeated 3 times into my face: "Oh I absolutely hate german shepherds."

I didn't say anything but knew exactly how he meant it.

Now I hate german shepherds myself, actually all large dogs, including pigdogs, who could easily kill a child.

That was one reason for not answering.

The other was, if you give such people(racists) some ground to stand on, it just adds to their power.

[gomaos]

Originally posted by Torsten:

[

I lost my temper, and what i said and did wasn't the right thing to do.

All I heard you shout that night was:

"I want him out of my life!"

and what's wrong with that.

We all have the right to want certain people out of our lives.

Sorry that was about all of the incident I witnessed, had to bring someone to bed shortly afterwards, and fell asleep myself.

I didn't hardly get anything from what happened at night at eb, and going by WD's posts I missed a lot, but the days were full of action too, so I'm not complaining.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by gomaos:

All I heard you shout that night was:

"I want him out of my life!"

and what's wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with that. I actually meant my post that he quoted and reacted to. I never wanted these forums to be private. I just want to be able to keep such a destructive force away from them. I don't really have any beef with anyone else. I can even tolerate will3