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Al

So, how was it?

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Guest will3

Dear Torsten,

Where to even begin?

You clearly are not open to the acceptance of the elements present to you, least of all a resolution of those elements into some kind of working order.

Many around you at the conference attempted to tell you, that you were shooting yourself in the foot, with essentially, IRRATIONAL and physically violent behaviour, which was shocking and unbelievalbe to most who witnessed your actions.

Closing a conference because of the walk in of last years organiser who has not paid for a ticket, would not appear to be grounds to close that conference or even call the police or even make a fuss about.

A clear and coherent response would, perhaps been that of allowance and not being reactive to Mulga's, "intrusion". And clearly, you were playing into Mulga's behaviour, and giving him credence and power. Exactly what he wanted one would presume.

What you have said about Floyd is extremely disrespectful, and blatantly distorted...to even begin to address your distortions would be to enter into the frayed edges of your psyche, where there is this huge central dynamic you are STILL dancing around and not addressing.

THIS WILL DESTROY YOU AND EVERYTHING YOU ARE DOING AND EVERYONE YOU CONSIDER YOUR FRIEND, if you maintain your own pseudo-logical rationalisations of undercover psychic warfare.

That is not a threat by any means, it is the way things are, you have assisted this process by stirring up the pot, by abusing and disrespecting many who, from their position, have given you a second chance.

And actually, many are now just very bemused, and have removed themselves from your presence and activities and just have no interest in these politics. And THAT, is the primary reason why you did not get a large attendance for this years conference.

Even in the kerfuffles, most everyone just tried to look away or ignore what was going on, but you kept pushing the issue.

Neil's singing of "Give peace a chance", delivered in a ironic, mocking way, was a very funny parody, isolating your war into its own futility.

AND IT IS YOUR WAR, and it is a bigger one now.

It is within you.

A few weeks, I offered to assist you to deal with this internal conflict, dynamic...I don't know at this point...I'm still here. I knew that if this wasn't dealt with, before the conference, something like this would go down. However, it is up to you to see the dynamic and begin to want to address it.

I am not against you or for you. I am here.

My sound was designed to interupt and reflect back the disturbance that is occuring, and it is occuring within you.

Julian.

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your sound will3 was that of a spastic howler monkey. it served to inflame the situation further. grow a fucking brain. usually pays to sit quietly and just appear stupid than to open your mouth and disperse all doubt.

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Guest reville

Julian pull your head out of your arse.

I dont know what disgusted me more , the Passive and spineless inaction of the majority of onlookers who in spite of a clear case of breaching the rules of entry that caused the shutdown of the conference as a well organised and stress free event

i quote just the most obvious detail

No admission to any session without unbroken armband.

and

Breach of any of the rules will result in immediate removal from the premises for the

duration of the event without refund.

A community without respect for its own rules isnt a community at all.

I for one do not give a fuck about the mulga /torsten issue i will explain its insignificance later

What bothered me was that an intruder held us ll to ransm and made, excuse me, cunts of us all by showing us that we lack the nerve to stand up and say no to this bullying

Mulga wasnt invited, didnt pay, didnt offer to pay and refused to answer the questions put to him by myself and a group of others over at the fire when we confronted him.

we asked not for an explanation of the issues involved with him and torsten or his percieved persecution but rather for a decision as to what he as going to do about it

I explained that for many of us travelling to this venue was a major undertaking and we were not about to stand about and let one person ruin our day.

I explained i had no personal issues with him ,now, and that by doing the right thing , that is leaving and allowing the organiser to avoid the hassle we would all no doubt have had some respect for his commitment to the EB community that would show he was able to rise bove personal disputes and see the bigger picture.I said i had no problem, if he must, to do what he had to do that night (torsten and daniel having already left)but that he shouldnt bethere in the morning

He did not answer. i asked this question repeatedly. what are you going to do to mkae us respect you?He obviously lacks any concern for the community at large and is willing to sacrifice our enjoyment for his own atttention seeking

Unfortunately nen insisted on playing devils advocate and as a result made a complete prick of himself with his 'go nowhere' circular arguments.

I like to form my own opinions of people which is why i can manage friendships with vehemently opposed people quite comfortably.

I really like Torsten and daniel and i have reserved judgement on mulga until now, having given him the chance to mke up my mind for me on his true character. We Explained how much this conference meant and detailed exactly how he could make us respect him. Needless to say he has shown his true nature and it is obvious that he does not give fuck about anyone but himself.

The reason why the whole torsten/mulga thing is of no significance is that the EB community is evolving beyond them.

let me explain. Mulga has as nen protested 'put in 5 years of research into the EB scene, and as it is obvious by the fact ime typing here Torten and Daniel have put in a tremendous amount of time and money to bring Ethnobotany beyond the borders of the green traingle.

We now have social groups in WA and Far north QLD with larger groups in adelaide and the rest of the eastern seaboard. In particular, melbourne, has a healthy evolving EB scene

An evolving shift in location of the heart of the scene would mean different things to different people.

For the self important people it will mean becoming obsolete.If your not active in doing research, building postive and sharing networks and suppoting others you re going to be left behind.

While the decentralisation of the scene will im sure come as a release of pressure for T and D - i mean imagine if they could actually take the time to sit and watch an EB fr once instead of sweating over a stove or having to take on the orgainsing.

Mulga is increasingly becoming a dinosaur. irrelevant and obsolete.

To add to that, his insistence that by exclusion we wont hear all his new findings, so what? I think that given the availability of all the materials and knowledge he has hes done fuck all anyway since his initial serendipitous discoveries. Given the timeframe elapsed since then he should have had a couple of dozen papers and the entire North the coast licked by now.

If he withholds info , other will simply redo the research and he will be forgotten.He will also lose any intellectual property rights and claims to discoveries made. In science your either pushing foreer onward and towards the next discovery or you are no-one at all.

As for you Julian - I was utterly disgusted at your conduct regarding the harvesting of Acacia phlebophylla from a national park.

There was no need to do so and doing so is highly unethical and shows as with mulga a delusion of self importance

Despite the theories of David C. that this has minimal impact, this is unproven and until a means of propagation is devised your arrogance is endangering this vulnerable species of great future importance to all of us.There is no need for the harvesting of A phlebophylla when many suitable acacias are found in the local area.

take a step back and consder the consequences of what may happen even if it is highly unlikely if you cause the loss of even one rare allelle in an already restricted population.

If there i another EB i will be there with bells on.I love the cause and i love the people but lets not allow self important people to hold us to ransom.

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I too had an absolutely wonderful time, and met some truly wonderful people who I have no doubt I will keep in contact with. I was actually surprised by the fact that I met far fewer people from the forums than I had expected (possibly due to them wearing tags with their non-forum names on them) and met many people who do not use the forums.

In that respect it went far better than expected. Many of the speakers were wonderful to listen to, especially Robert - who spoke on san pedro and ayahuasca shamanism - his talk was a real highlight for me.

One thing though that I was surprised and disapointed by was Torsten. I had really been looking forward to meeting him, and perhaps, if he had a chance, to have a really good chat, and learn more about him and what his ideas and plans are - as I was immesuarably inspired by the things he has posted about in the forums (specifically how he has bought a property to live on, set up a research center on and plant a rainforest (!) on). I did not know him well and hoped that by the end of the conference I would. I am sure many people went there with that as one of their intentions. As it turned out the only exposure I had to him was to witness what has been described here, and elsewhere, as irrational, inapropriate, ov-er-emotional, uncompromising and divisive behaviour. Without knowing the full story I can't really say whether he was justified in this - but I think that's the whole point isn't it? just about no-one there would have known the whole story, and since Torsten didn't show the inclination to tell us why he acted why he did whilst he was there, most people _will_ just have his behaviour to go on. And there have been a lot of harsh judgements. He didn't talk to people about it, so what are they to think? I have a feeling that many people will have gone away a bit disillusioned about Torsten due to this. Many people were upset by the confrontations and didn't see why a compromise couldn't be reached, the reactionary attitude displayed just seemed so disproportionate. And Torsten can post all he likes, now that it is over, justifying what he did, but the fact is that a lot of people went to the conference who don't use the forums, and many will leave with that as their first and only exposure to Torsten as a person. That is not a good thing.

My judgement is suspended however. I was not impressed at all, and who can blame me? Unlke some people I have not known Torsten before this. But I am also unwilling to go all out to attack him for reacting to an unknown quantity (I have no experience of Mulge either - if he had not turned up at the conference I would never have heard of him). But I guess the point I am trying to make is that the person he has done the most damage to is himself. The actual attendees, and the presenters mostly acted like nothing had happened, and this is a wonderful tribute to the spirit of our community. it was as though there was a storm raging on the surface of the ocean, but the 99% below that was as calm and warm as ever. The people were lovely, the treated each other in a far more open and accepting and friendly way than any group I have ever encountered before. I am sure that many _many_ friends were made over the weekend by everyone, and nothing can take that away - not Torsten, not Mulga. And to have something so unbelivably positive as this being subjected to potential damage by other peoples squabbles is a real shame. Torsten himself has now stated that he knows who are his friends and who are 'scumbags', but I suggest that, regardless of how much he might hate mulga, and regardless of how much he may have felt backstabbed by some of the other organisers, he himself would have come away with many more friends, and perceiving far fewer people as 'scumbags', if he had just not risen to the bait, and shown us his true colours. As it is, many people believe what they saw were his true colours, and whether they are or not, that is the way things are. I would still like an opportunity to get to know him well (I did take the opportunity to meet the guy that turned up with mulga - nick?, and ended up spending far more time talking to him than to torsten - an utterly ridiculous situation when you think about it...) but I am sure that many people left not caring whether they ever do or not, and that is a real shame when you look at what Torsten is doing for the community. Anyway, regardless of what went on at the conference itself, Torsten undoubtedly put more effort than anyone else into getting the thing off the ground, and he woked _so_ hard for it that it is a terrible shame to think that so many people will not even think of that side of things when they decide to criticise him. So please people, just remember, when you go to say 'it was a great conference - except for Torsten' that without Torsten, you would have had no conference. We don't really know what happened, so we shouldn't be too quick to judge. He may have handled the situation badly, and I personally think that it was definitely less than satisfactory, but fuck, what would we have done in his shoes? it's all very well to say he 'should have' done this or that, but lets face it, it was in relation to a person who we have no personal experience of... so how can we know we would have acted any differently?

so... yeah, I have been rambling, but... basically, it was a shame, but lets suspend judgement a bit... It's just a pitty that Torsten didn't do anything to inform people of what was going on at the time - if he had actually informed us about who it was, and why it was a problem, he would have ended up with far more support than he did, rather than people just being baffled by this persons behaviour.

-Eccles

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I just re-read my post, and decided that it sounded too negative regarding Torsten, and over-focussed on it as well...

rather than retype it, I'd like you all to tone it down a bit in your minds... All I was trying to say was, a lot of peole got a bad first impression of him, but they owe him a hell of a lot regardless.

Also, like Reville, I do not find it difficult to maintain friendships with people who hate each others guts... I am not interested in other peoples squabbles, I judge them on their own merits. I was happy to hear Reville express some of the sentiments that he did, rather than be like some of the other people who instantly polarised one way or the other. Thankyou Reville for bringing some even-handedness into this thread.

On the subject of Reville - I was very excited by his seed network, and I think that this is something that we must give all the support that we can. I am very keen to see it succeed. (email me Revile - [email protected], when you have something for me to do, especially if you need assistance with the website).

so yeah... anyway, a lot of good came out of the weekened, and we owe much of it to Torsten's organisation, and its a shame that events conspired to prevent him from getting the credit that he deserved.

peace,

-Eccles

[This message has been edited by eccles (edited 19 February 2002).]

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Originally posted by Torsten:

:

why??? none of you fuckwits give a shit about me. You just want what I have to offer. This weekend served me well to show me who my real friends are.............................WHAAATTTT?????indeed.........

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Originally posted by will3:

with essentially, IRRATIONAL and physically violent behaviour, which was shocking and unbelievalbe to most who witnessed your actions.

jesus h christ will what sort of cotton wool factory did you grow up in, iv personelly seen more violence on sesame street. infact i saw the first episode during piers film and was involved the the next day. nothing but reasonable force was used in any case and that only happened after leangthy pleading for the fuckwit to go.

 

Closing a conference because of the walk in of last years organiser who has not paid for a ticket, would not appear to be grounds to close that conference or even call the police or even make a fuss about.
FUCK YOUR DUMB.

[This message has been edited by shroomy (edited 19 February 2002).]

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Guest Neil Pike

"Special prick's award"? Geez, my girlfriends have been giving me that for years... I always thought it was just the yohimbe!

Seriously though if I'm to be given the special prick's award, well first there's a lot of people that need to be thanked... my mother, my father, my kids, Gaia and of course Torsten without whom none of this would have been possible...

I'm well aware that a number of people attending EB2002 would no doubt feel that rabid idiot hippies like myself are exactly what's wrong with the Australian entheogenic community... and just as many would probably also feel that uptight, angry, control freaks are the problem.

In my opinion, neither would be right. Us hippies need the control freaks to get things organised, and the control freaks need the chaos of the hippies to remind them of the headspace they are promoting or researching.

In my opinion, ALL interested parties deserve a place at the table... I recognise that not everyone agrees with this.

If anyone's ever seen the Monty Python film "Life of Brian", they might care to remember the Judean Liberation Front and the People's Liberation Front of Judea. Both of whom hated the Romans, but seemed to hate each other a lot more. Thus, becoming ineffective in their search for liberation.

People interested in the entheogens are woefully outnumbered and legislated against. We need to stick together, not fracture and splinter.

I would like to point out (prick that I am) that my p.a. was in place and functional until the end of the conference at no charge (as it turned out) to anyone but myself. I spoke, played music and showed my videos in an attempt to do what I had been invited there to do... and tried to keep the "show going" as best I could.

I am truly sorry that my pacifism (it aint "neo"... my parents were pacifists) was so out-of-place at a conference about unity-provoking substances.

Love, peace and all that tree-hugging hippie crap to you all,

Neil

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Hey, Neil, I saw your performance as one of the highlights of the show.

Keep up the good stuff.

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Guest will3

your sound will3 was that of a spastic howler monkey.

Right on!

I was seeing a few of them in front of me, whose sounds were unspoken and unsaid to each other...and they were treated with sound of themselves, their own disturbance called to them, knowing they could not take it anywhere when it is HERE.

Reville,

About the phlebophylla...I can well understand your perspective and yet obviously do not appreciate your assumption of complete ignorance and arrogance.

I have gone into great detail with this issue with Torsten and Darklight elsewhere.

"this vulnerable species of great future importance to all of us"

My position is that I wish to demonstrate and others to see the PRESENT importance of this species to us NOW, to encourage awareness of how valuable and important this tree is to us.

There is simply no comparison of phlebophylla to the local acacia species...and in understanding this, I believe it will encourage many of the people who have had the opportunity to experience it, to support work to propogate and research this species.

My aim is and has been to share an experience with this plant with those I consider key people, and so far, I have been very successful in this endeavour.

Shroomy,

The fact that the violence was coming from the organiser of the conference, being directed toward one of last years organisers, was the factor which really left me feeling embarrased for Torsten, more than anything.

I was really supportive of Torsten working this issue out with Mulga and helping him in whatever ways I could to create the best conference he could. That Mulga's outburst, put him off balance and off the track of the support that was present for him, really surprised me. At the time I attempted to encourage him to come to a basic peace with this situation and allow the show to go on, however he may feel about Mulga and this breach of rules.

Only a week before the conference, Floyd, made "peace" with Torsten, after a long time of not speaking, Mulga supposedly being in Floyds "camp".

Before this, Floyd was not asked if he wished for his company, "Magikal Botannicals" listed as an organiser.

At the last minute, myself and Floyd helped Torsten, in very small ways that were asked of us. However, it was clearly Torsten's show and one he clearly enjoys directing.

Virtually none of what Torsten says about Floyd really makes any sense to me at all...I can only assume he is doing some of translation of what he feels is a psychic interpolation(!) that he feels was occuring from Floyd.

That Floyd offered to help Torsten pay for conference costs, just shows what lengths Floyd will go to, to help bring peace to a situation. However, I do not see, in anyone's book, how Floyd can be made responsible for the turnout to the conference.

As I can understand the situation, Torsten put a lot of pressure on Floyd on Saturday night, and Floyd responded in a way that he felt may remedy the present distress and disturbance, as if there was some way, he could help patch up the situation.

However, I believe he later saw, in an obviously clearer state of mind (Floyd was an active participant in the workshops as was most everyone else...), that this situation, was not his to patch up, and that the responsbility lay with Torsten.

Which as far as I can see, is due to a larger ticket price and the wariness of people entering into a space of the conflicts and disputes that were apparent between Chris, Mulga, Boris and Torsten.

As it happened, that is exactly what did happen - that this overal conflict and dyanamic was carried over into the conference, and despite Mulga and Torsten, everyone appeared to keep the show on the road in a way that worked for them!

The people that gathered around Nick and Mulga were simply those who were attempting to mediate and listen to their perspectives.

None of us were happy, with what had happened, but that doesn't mean we were all anti-Torsten.

I was one of them, and I shared my perspectives. Claudia came over and talked in that group as well, and gave Chuck a hug.

By the way, Kristian and Claudia are marvelous people, whose presence and wisdom were appreciated greatly by myself and many other people.

I was disappointed that more time was not given to Kristian to speak, however at this time, Torsten effectively ceased to be organising anything at the conference and from what I gathered, Floyd took up the reigns, because nobody else was there doing anything!

"When Floyd made the decision to back Mulga's presence at the conference he was fully aware that I would pull out my finances (along with my labour). This leaves him owing me $5000 (a third of the total cost). Sadly he also put dutchie in the same position."

I think you know well, Floyd is perhaps the most peaceful, non-confrontational man alive. To literally, pass the buck onto him...is I believe, an action coming out of a space of disintegrity and lack responsiblity for one's own actions and responsibilities.

That Floyd put Dutchie in the position to pay you money is a truly bizarre form of logic and twisting which you are an undisputed master of Torsten!

Read that quote several times and see how well it stands up to LOGIC.

Floyd did not support Mulga's intrusion at all!

That he somehow knew you would pull out your finances after he did that, just doesn't make sense!

That, in some way, Dutchie is made responsible for the losses of your conference is just strange!

It is very clear to everyone, that this conference was organised by primarily you and Daniel, and that Dutchie and Floyd, were simply assistants or associates to support you on the day! That Lamius didn't show up, shows that the supposed other organisers, were not very deeply associated with the running of the show before that day!

"Those uneasy grins on sunday did little to mask your true loyalties"

Loyalties occur in a war.

In a sane human community, one generally is everyone's friend, and when there are disputes and interuptions, one generally attempts to resolve them.

Torsten, will say he has attempted to resolve the issues that are present between him and Mulga. And yet, because he did not, it has caused him trouble.

We can be sure that this issue will not just go away, and that further diviseness will harm us all. I encourage Torsten to be the one to take action with Mulga, to speak with him, to DO SOMETHING proactively. To cease and desist from moaning about how slack and stupid everyone else is, and what fuckin' trippers they are.

I almost sincerely recommend you both either battle in the psychic planes on ayahuasca and one of you kill of destroy one another there, or physically, take this medicine with each other and assume responsibility for your mututal creation.

Or you and Mulga and associated others, can both continue mouthing away about circumstances and the superficialities of your supposed worthy egos, and continue to fuck up the good work many are doing, by splattering your personal issues all over the world, and possibiily ruining possibilities for creating constructive community in the emerging Australian Ethnobotanical movement.

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Guest reville

Oops, I used the computer right after Rev and didn't change the details. The devil is in the details, as we know wink.gifI'llpost it back under my name...sorry cob

darklight

[This message has been edited by reville (edited 19 February 2002).]

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Exactly the sitch, Torsten, I couldn't have put it better myself ( mostly cos I wasn't there on Friday night and didn't hear about it til halfway through Saturday....jeez I regret that...)

Mulga's, Nen's and Floyd's actions re EB2 would have seen a less reasonable person...and I seriously mean less reasonable, if youse can't work out what Torsten & Daniel have had to put up with over this then ask yourself whether you're impartial and not involved or merely too lazy to think...wielding chainsaws and howling like a banshee.

One of the sad inevitabilities is the fact that Mulga's presence was tolerated at all. So many ppl who did know what was happenning chose to see the issue as "organiser stuff" and "not their business" that Mulga got away with wrecking the conference and making total dickheads of them.

Now, may I suggest that if anyone but Mulga behaved that way, reactions would have been a little different...but please realise that Mulga, by way of his spruiking about how unfair ppl are to him and how hard he has worked and his contribution to the EB community generally ( all only supportable on his own evidence and not based on actual fact so you can believe him only if you don't stand his statements to any actual scrutiny...)...ahem...Mulga has created a little space where ppl think he actually IS special and wronged and deserved red carpet treatment for behaving like a dickhead. If any other member of the public turned up unannounced and publicly stated that they deserved to be there without observing exactly the same conditions as everyone else had to go through to be there, youse would prolly all have had them scalped. But not Mulga, Mulga is special. Ppl think he's special cos he told them so.

This is, of course, how Mulga gets through life....don't spose that's occurred to anyone

Many ppl there with years in the EB field, and who are def old enough to know better, started bleating that all they'd done was sat there when he'd joined their group, that they'd not 'taken sides' just because he'd not actively been discouraged. Wrong, dudes. Mulga put you on the spot by barging in, and he knew it. By making you individually involved, by making sure everyone could see you accepting his presence meekly and almost as a right by virtue of his pathetic existence, and then moving on to the next group...Mulga put you on the spot. He could have just sat there on the outskirts ( no this would not have been acceptable, but it was another course of possible action ) and waited til ppl walked up to him and offered their support, or stood to one side until a decision had been made, but Mulga chose to put many ppl on the spot, making them look complicitous in his presence there, and so many ppl who should well know better just wore it with stupid looks on their faces.

It's a battle of the titans, Torsten vs Mulga, I'm told, and many ppl who should know better don't feel they have the right to intervene. That particular lie has been encouraged by Mulga, who is the only party claiming any kind of godhead, and it's been bought wholesale. If you take the egos out of it, you have someone turning up UNINVITED and UNPAID at an event where all organisers had SPECIFICALLY agreed his presence would be disruptive. Had it been anyone else who lobbed at the last minute, refused to pay for

this year or last years ticket and publicly claimed the right to attend on the grounds that they existed while everyone else had paid for their tickets and stuck by the few and fair rules and youse would all have been shrieking injustice. But there's no actual moral premise here, is there, once the important ppl are involved it's well beyond the scope of us ordinary mortals, how can we be expected to understand the behaviour of the gods? And Mulga is a god, he's special, he told you so.

Torsten and Daniel are my mates. You're all probably well aware of my extremely high opinion both of their work and of the ethical environment in which they operate. So yeah there's an amount of support here based on personal issues. But aside from that, there was a clear moral case here, and it was swept aside by a tide of indifference and the belief that because it was Torsten and Mulga were at loggerheads, the rest of us should keep quiet and let them slog it out. Bullshit. Once Mulga was there putting everyone on the spot and we were all doing nothing but whispering in corners and hoping he'd leave without causing a scene, we were complicit by virtue of inaction.

We were all complicitious, dudes. Even I got compromised by the tepid inertia. Once I saw my attempts to remove the offending particle were physically unsupported I realised that I would have to use more than reasonable force, and that the presence of the inertia would have mean there were more than a few likely candidates to stand up in court and claim I'd made a cunt of myself ( rather than asking why the hell Mulga turned up in the first place if not to incite animosity ) then I lost interest. Instinctive, but unfinished and gutless and I kick myself for it, let alone the dozen or so ppl who asked me why I hadn't just decked the prick ( the reason I hadn't is that if I'm the only one whose actually doing it and everyone else merely wants to...then guess whose name appears in the court reports and everyone else is a potential witness ). Go figure.

AND IT IS YOUR WAR, and it is a bigger one now. It is within you.

Will3 you remind me of nothing so much as one of those tarty arcade machines you feed twenty cents in and it spits out a predigested platitude on a card. Why you have the notion that your deep prophesies are anything other than your brain distracting itself from your own inadequacies is beyond me. Why anyone takes you seriously is a total mystery.

Howler monkey is further up the evolutionary ladder than any estimation I would have made, but in terms of signal to noise ratio it sounds accurate. How the hell you explain stripping four kilos plus of biomass from an endangered specicies when there were other avenues available to you which you well knew...and don't tell me you felt no need to explain...why the noise otherwise? The voices in my head are telling me I should take your arm off with a blunt nail file and no anaesthetic, how is that less valid than your pathetic claim that the plant told you it wasn't endangered and it was OK to raze the remnant population cos you're special? My spiritual insights are vastly more relevant and factual than yours- true or false? Wanna play?

Anyone who claimed it as Mulga's claimed natural right to be at a public event should consider the following:

It was not a public event, it was a private conference

Mulga had twelve months to sort things out with the organisers and set up a ticket like everyone else

Instead of pissing ppl off by attending he could have gone and done some really good work somewhere else and impressed the hell out of ppl

But instead his only route to happiness lay in negatively geared attention seeking behaviour. Why he thought this was a more certain path to pleasure than a swim at Byron and a latte with a blonde is a complete mystery. Both would have taken about the same amount of time.

I have these sort of discussions with my one year old god daughter, and she is more capable of assimilating and acting on this sort of information than a dysfunctional obsessive compulsive loser, which one would

expect....but as I said to her...the world is full of stuff. If you want a tanty it doesn't matter where you throw it. If you want attention, a tanty will get you some, but ppl will be pissed off with you. Instead of throwing a tanty in the loungeroom, go and do something else like looking at all the world's stuff, and come back and tell us about it, and we'll be happy. Otherwise we'll think you just want to piss us off. Seems to

make sense to her...

Mulga has nothing more to ofer life than the ability to fuck other ppl's work up. I said it to him, and I'll say it to youse guys again. He's had twelve months to come up with viable projects, start other interests and research and nobody would have intefered with him. The fact that his biggest achievement in the last year, and his only way of capturing attention, is to turn up at an event from which he was requested to stay away, ruining months of other ppls work and deliberately generating animousity shows exactly where

his energy expenditure and true talents lie. Those of you who encouraged, facilitated and welcomed his presence should be bloody ashamed of yourselves.

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I have gone into great detail with this issue with Torsten and Darklight elsewhere.

Oh GOOD Will, I'm glad we got it sorted. The rest of youse can go home now, please file out quietly.

As you've described myself and Torsten in such a way that makes us sound like we can sit round and solve the world's problems over a cuppa and a quiet chat to the irrelevance of everyone else, you've thus raised yourself to similar lofty heights by implying your inclusion in an organised discussion which never took place

ARE YOU KIDDING?

So what if you talked to me. I still think your actions stink. I'm by no means the last word in such issues either and I reckon you'll hear from others with similar views- which is a good thing

[This message has been edited by Darklight (edited 27 February 2002).]

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Originally posted by will3:

Only a week before the conference, Floyd, made "peace" with Torsten, after a long time of not speaking, Mulga supposedly being in Floyds "camp".

I last talked to Floyd in June or so and at the time he wanted to be part of EB3. I am not going to take someone off the orgsnier list just cos you and others tell me he is supporting Mulga. It would be up to Floyd to tell me his position and any changes made to our arrangements - however he didn't. When I ran into him in Byron a few weeks ago Floyd was very much over Mulga and there were no issues to deal with. I don't expect you to know any of this or to understand any of it, but the least you could do is keep your nose out of stuff you have no idea about.

Before this, Floyd was not asked if he wished for his company, "Magikal Botannicals" listed as an organiser.

The organisation for EB3 started in April last year. At this time Floyd had asked to be part of the team, even if Mulga was not. He chose his business name rather than his private name as the promoter name. If he can't remember that far back then that is his problem. If he had any issue with it, he should have told me and I would have changed it. I would have been happy to organise EB3 by myself. I ended up doing most of the work anyway. Once again, shut up if you don't have a clue.

At the last minute, myself and Floyd helped Torsten, in very small ways that were asked of us.

Actually, Floyd offered to help. I did NOT ask. He felt that he should have doen more for EB3. As it turned out he didn't actually help out that day and left you to help me instead.

However, it was clearly Torsten's show and one he clearly enjoys directing.

I knew from last year just how incompetent Floyd is. he knew it too, which is why we agreed that he would do his share of work on the day of the conference rather than in the organising stages. I don't mind relinquishing work and control. Just ask dutchess, who did a hell of a job with the ticketing and finances, without my interference. I know she is competent, so i don't have to stay involved.

Virtually none of what Torsten says about Floyd really makes any sense to me at all

I am not surprised. You don't understand much, and sadly, Floyd has done a lot of lying and deceiving lately. Very out of character for him and very sad to see. I made sure that there were several people present during my discussions with Floyd so as to make sure that he can't weasle his way out of what he said. if there is any issue that I am not presenting truthfully, why don't you bring Floyd down to my place and we will discuss it. I know he won't lie to me face to face anymore, but I also know he lies behind my back.

That Floyd offered to help Torsten pay for conference costs, just shows what lengths Floyd will go to, to help bring peace to a situation.

again, you understand very little. Floyd said himself that he owes Mulga and Nick and can't make a decision against them, even though he acknowledged that they were doing the wrong thing and should not have come or stayed. he didn't offer to pay - I gave an ultimatum, which he accepted. He could have also declined the ultimatum, but he chose to justify the intruders.

However, I do not see, in anyone's book, how Floyd can be made responsible for the turnout to the conference.

because he was an organiser - by his own choice. he was willing enough to veto my decisions re Mulga and Nick, so he is also responsible for the financial responsibilities and other fall out.

As I can understand the situation, Torsten put a lot of pressure on Floyd on Saturday night, and Floyd responded in a way that he felt may remedy the present distress and disturbance, as if there was some way, he could help patch up the situation.

Floyd played me on fiday night. He got caught out, ADMITTED IT, and wore the consequences. if he denies this, please organise a 3 way meeting and I will proove it.

However, I believe he later saw, in an obviously clearer state of mind (Floyd was an active participant in the workshops as was most everyone else...), that this situation, was not his to patch up, and that the responsbility lay with Torsten.

Then he shouldn't have made the decision on friday night. On wednesday Floyd deceived me, for which he apologised (yes, again he admitted it). Then on friday my decision re Mulga was vetoed by him and I wanred that i would pull out if he did not change his decision. he deceived me again, for which he once again apologised on saturday (in front of 4 people).

As it happened, that is exactly what did happen - that this overal conflict and dyanamic was carried over into the conference, and despite Mulga and Torsten, everyone appeared to keep the show on the road in a way that worked for them!

If you're all so good at keeping shows on the road, why are you all too incompetent to get something on the road. Floyd couldn't even keep things on track after it was fully organised. And you yourself are nothing but a big mouth with very little clue of what really goes on the world.

The people that gathered around Nick and Mulga were simply those who were attempting to mediate and listen to their perspectives.

wrong place - wrong time.

I was disappointed that more time was not given to Kristian to speak, however at this time, Torsten effectively ceased to be organising anything at the conference and from what I gathered, Floyd took up the reigns, because nobody else was there doing anything!

Fuck you're dumb!

Firstly, Christian and Claudia choose their own session lengths. I had offered up to half a day each, but they only wanted 30 min each. The day before the conference they decided that 1-2 hours would be better and I tried to accommodate that. Floyd did not take the reigns because no one else was doing it. He choose to take them the night before. As I said before, I sprang no surprises on the other organisers. They got to make their own choices at all times and with plenty of warning and plenty of options.

I think you know well, Floyd is perhaps the most peaceful, non-confrontational man alive. To literally, pass the buck onto him...is I believe, an action coming out of a space of disintegrity and lack responsiblity for one's own actions and responsibilities.

Floyd chose this course. It was discussed at length with both Dutchie and myself. He was given plent of alternatives and plenty of time. He was also given the opportunity to pull out. Don't forget that his deception started on wednesday before the conference!!!

That Floyd put Dutchie in the position to pay you money is a truly bizarre form of logic and twisting which you are an undisputed master of Torsten!

It's very simple. There are 3 organisers. Decisions are made by majority or unanymously. In this case it was essential to get a unanymous decision. Floyd decided to vote against me proposal even though I had wanred right from April 2001 and on Friday night, that I would pull out entirely if this issue was not resolved according to my original conditions. By Floyd reneging on the original agreement he left me no option than to pull out. This left Floyd and dutchie in charge and sharing ALL responsibilities. They are just lucky that I had already undersigned the venue and various other expenses or they would have ended up getting sued by the suppliers. I have so far paid all expenses out of my own pcket, but will be collecting owed monies soon.

Floyd did not support Mulga's intrusion at all!

That he somehow knew you would pull out your finances after he did that, just doesn't make sense!

Wrong. He already went behind my back on wdnesday by involving Mulga in an ethnobotanica related occasion against our agreement. I choose to accept his apology for this, but warned him of not taking it any further. I had also told him on firday night that I would pull out mine and Daniel's labour if he did not support Mulga's removal and furthermore told him that I would pull out all finances if either Nick or Mulag were still there in the morning. I told Floyd this repeatedly and with several witnesses. He also discussed this in detail, indicating that he was well aware of the consequences. He made the choices that ended up in me pulling out.

That, in some way, Dutchie is made responsible for the losses of your conference is just strange!

why?? is it only one organiser who is responsible for the finances?? THAT is strange!!

It is very clear to everyone, that this conference was organised by primarily you and Daniel, and that Dutchie and Floyd, were simply assistants or associates to support you on the day!

This may have been Floyd's choice, but certainly not dutchies. Don't make statements about things you don't have a clue about. Also, Floyd made it clear that he was not just a helper (we had plenty of those), but that he was involved in the decision making process. He mere choose to stay out of the pre-conference work.

That Lamius didn't show up, shows that the supposed other organisers, were not very deeply associated with the running of the show before that day!

Actually, Lamius was very involved. He confirmed several times all the things he had organised and that he was taking his organiser responsibilities serious (he apologised for getting involved a little late). Simple fact was that he lied about the things he had supposedly done. I don't expect you to understand much about business, but the 3 days of the conference were only a small part of the work involved. lamius' main responsibility was in looking after Christian and Claudia BEFORE and AFTER the conference. he simple choose not to turn up for any of this.

Torsten, will say he has attempted to resolve the issues that are present between him and Mulga. And yet, because he did not, it has caused him trouble.

There are at least 4 people who have tried to mediate and all ended up giving up, not because of me, but because Mulga would not agree to any peace deal. I even tried it myself late last year, but after 2 hours of going around in circles I decided that it was futile. I had gotten over all the emotional crap and decided to just let it all sleep. All I asked was that Mulga leaves me alone and stays out of my personal space. He however regards the forums and EB2 as public spaces and has decided to keep harrassing me. This is why both conferences and the forums will soon become totally private spaces. Mulga has also said that he would rather see the forums dead than not to be part of them. This just shows how sick he is.

Why am I not entitled to have nothing to do with him?? Why do people like you constantly try to bring him back inot my life. If you were really in the middle, rather than on his side, you would respect my space and allow me to exist without his constant aggression. Then all this crap woudl not have happened, the forums would stay public, EB3 would be in the early planign stages and maybe Mulga would get off his ass and start his own website.

I encourage Torsten to be the one to take action with Mulga, to speak with him, to DO SOMETHING proactively.

I am. Both Mulga and Nick will be paying for their tickets. One way or the other. I will also be getting damages from them. I have had enough. Of him, of Nick, of Floyd and various other liars, of air brains like you, and other people who have a comment about the issue without having a clue.

To cease and desist from moaning about how slack and stupid everyone else is,

you obviously haven't read mulga's posts over the last few months....

I almost sincerely recommend you both either battle in the psychic planes on ayahuasca and one of you kill of destroy one another there, or physically, take this medicine with each other and assume responsibility for your mututal creation.

Nice thought. I have my own ways.

Or you and Mulga and associated others, can both continue mouthing away about circumstances and the superficialities of your supposed worthy egos, and continue to fuck up the good work many are doing, by splattering your personal issues all over the world, and possibiily ruining possibilities for creating constructive community in the emerging Australian Ethnobotanical movement.

I have not talked about Mulga for month before this issue came up. Even though I have to deal with his invasions at least a couple of times a month. if you want this resolved, then tell Mulga to get out of my life and all will be fine. Ha, but I guess you can't do that eh??

Please get your FACTS straight before posting more stupidity.

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Originally posted by bluetonguedragon:

....oi i did the cookin Tors I hope your not getting me confused with someone else as i have not posted

Sorry dragon. Didn't mean you at all. Got confused cos of shapeshifters comment re 'taking over where Daniel left off'. I don't think Daniel was washing dishes... wink.gif

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Originally posted by will3:

Where to even begin?

by going back to sleep maybe?

...and physically violent behaviour, which was shocking and unbelievalbe to most who witnessed your actions.

judging from the rest of your posts I have to assume you have no idea what actually went on. Nick came up with wild phantasies of me kicking and punching Mulga, but there were about 15 or so people who clearly saw what actually happened. I approacjed Mulga and asked him to leave. he said no. I said he is not wanted here and he is leaving NOW. he said No. I grabbed his upper arms and escorted him away. he squirmed and I gripped harder, but did not let go at any point. he then shouldered me and pushed me away from him. I lost my balance and my patience. I then restrained him by wrapping my arms around him, at which point he realised he had gone too far and stretched his arms away at 45 degree angle in a gesture of not resisting. At this stage I let go and he walked away. problem was over. however then Nick started causing a scene and threatening with calling the Police, etc etc

Closing a conference because of the walk in of last years organiser who has not paid for a ticket, would not appear to be grounds to close that conference or even call the police or even make a fuss about.

I wasn't the one who threatened with the police. Nick threatened that he would call the police and have the conference shut down if Mulga was not allowed to stay. This is when I closed the conference (temporarily).

A clear and coherent response would, perhaps been that of allowance and not being reactive to Mulga's, "intrusion".

I am baffled. WHY???? So that next time 20 people alk in off the street without paying?? You are also forgetting that Mulga witheld ticket money from EB1, which he has still not paid. He was told month ago that he would need to sort this out before there was any chance of any future discusions.

And clearly, you were playing into Mulga's behaviour, and giving him credence and power. Exactly what he wanted one would presume.

You should be pleased. You knew this was going to happen and I reacted the way you thought I would.

What you have said about Floyd is extremely disrespectful, and blatantly distorted.

Please do not make comments about things you have no clue about. If Floyd is man enough to dispute any of what I said, then bring him over to my place. I doubt he will. I would happily apologise publically and to Floyd if I was wrong in any way.

THIS WILL DESTROY YOU AND EVERYTHING YOU ARE DOING AND EVERYONE YOU CONSIDER YOUR FRIEND

OK. The Gospel according to Julian.

And THAT, is the primary reason why you did not get a large attendance for this years conference.

what?? you think that any of the locals would have come anyway?? We had the same number of locals as last year. Again, there is little you understand of putting on such an event. No matter how convenient it is to blame me for attendence problems, there are only a few people who have an insight of the dynamics of this business. You are not one of them.

AND IT IS YOUR WAR, and it is a bigger one now.

There is no more war. I am pulling out of everything where Mulga can interfere and I ma making him pay what he owes me. I have provided much for this community and people like you have not made much of a contribution to the things I have set up. I will shut the doors now and will keep shutting them in ever smaller circles until I don't have to put up with pricks like Mulga (and you) anymore.

I am here.

Not for long....

My sound was designed to interupt and reflect back the disturbance that is occuring, and it is occuring within you.

Some designers fail dismally in what they try to achieve.

I am surprised at the shortsightedness of some people. I am providing many services for free to this community and they are constantly being used to abuse me. Can anyone give me a reason why I need to put up with that and why I am expected to keep these forums open and uncensored. I am not looking for the deeper morality of this as I am well aware of it. I am lookign for the practical application. It is of no consequence to me to shut this website down (and no, I am not threatening to do so), while on the other hand everyone feels they need to compete, knock or educate me. Funny enough it is usually the people who are least competent, who achieve the least and who are in themselves unhappy or lonely who are causing me the most grief here. Maybe you all need to get a life, a purpose or a root or something.

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aha, mihkal can take a break. i'm back. mulga as much as admitted that he was there to disrupt in a recent spate of emails to me. these grander notions of being widely accepted and somehow welcome to gatecrash are just horse shit. he knew torsten would react and that's the sole reason he showed up.

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i had an absolutely wonderful time! i met heaps of good like-minded people smile.gif and i learnt ALOT.

and yes the perfomance by neil pike was amazing, thanx for that neil biggrin.gif

the few interupptions were dissapointing but the fun i had there and onthe travel up and back was well worth going. will there be one next year? it may be a rumour but might it be in melbourne?

btw torsten, i'm very sorry i didn't get a chance to meet u frown.gif

aaron

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Originally posted by waterdragon:

....and i seem to be missing many, many of my total postings.

Ya, im missing like 300 odd. I thought it'd bug the shit outta me, being as "ego orientated" as I am and all, but suprisingly I couldn't give a shit. Im still me, im not my posts, those posts are all gone now anyway so what does it matter eh.

-Chemical Shaman

"Social Masturbation"

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not quite sure where the posts went CS. I know why they went for waterdragon, but there were two separate problems. waterdragon & CS, e-mail me with your total number, username and password and I will fix it.

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Guest will3

Dear Torsten,

You are self confessed master of loopholes, and technicalities.

Behind all these very clear statements and backhands, and descriptions, is a basic dynamic that I have indicated to you that requires a competent and human adressing, into the deeper dynamics within us all, that is in fact a lyrical, emotional and psychic interplay – which you are contextualising into pure “facts”, which I cannot dispute because to me, they are entirely subjective and arising out of your own perspectives and mentalities.

They however, appear arbitrary and are created by you, to justify many positions and strategies of yours.

Personally, I was not present to all your discussions with others and everything that occured. However, my very basic point, is that you pressured Floyd and Dutchie into paying for losses of a conference that you primarily organised and put up the money for. That they should be responsible for these losses, after some strange psycho-political intrusion, and you pulling out – is of your construction.

And these actions of yours, are not arising from of integrity, and anyone with a visceral sense of actuality, can clearly sense your manipulations and politiking.

Your slandering of Floyd is disrespectful, brutish and arrogant.

Your attitude is not pleasant, and your language is schoolyardish and immature!

I have no counter statements to your propositions of what you experience, I can only state my experience, essentially quite a simple, human one which is not particularly receptive to your words or justifications.

Any response, sounds too much like a fight!

I'm not interested.

A central basic peaceful principle of balance and, has been disregarded for a bullish, technocratical approach of psedo-logic, so prevelant in our world!

And good on you Torsten!, for really mastering these forms of manipulation and control!

However, I believe you have lost the central reason and MEANING of your activities, in this opaque slashing of objectification and egocentric myopia.

You have have clearly alienated a lot of people.

And everyone knows this alienation is why you lost money with this conference.

Floyd didn’t alienate anyone...he was only trying to settle issues and keep the conference going for everyone! Probably, he was in no state of mind to actually deal with this issue at the time (having ingested some fungi I believe!)

Nick and Mulga are the main Acacia researchers in the world!

We both know they are doing great work, however you may dispute their methods or personalities!

Others who I have spoken to, didn’t go to the conference, because of the “negative” sense they had of your organisation and “battles”, with most EVERYONE who is of consequence!

And again, you are provoking a battle with me. My usual approach is to deconstruct and analyse that person into the ground, however, I don’t feel this is appropriate with you. Your will is yours and this is your maze, you are enjoying solving, and I wish you well with this puzzle. I have said that I have wished to allow you to unravel the aspects and frankly, I am still here, and I am working with you on many different planes of reality.

This is not my personal choice per se, but rather an occurance in consciousness. Personally, I see you as a person who is unwilling or unprepared to see their own deeper dimensional aspects, and if you haven’t, none of this will make any sense to you, and you will be unable to render a reality of these words, not being prepared to enter into sentimenal flaky land.

And you will probably not be able to HANDLE or fathom, the deeper actualities of consciousness because you are just not seeing the present dyanamic in its whole form. Rather you fragment and picture forms, based upon your own previous conceptions and ideas about “reality”.

I have contributed in the ways I have, on the forums. By being with people and sharing my understanding, by leading a group at the conference, by talking at the conference etc!

And then you are blatantly rude and childishly abusive to me?

I do value your capabilities and capacities Torsten.

Clearly, there is a lot you can share and DO! In some ways, you are the self appointed leader of the Australian ethnobotanical community. To ALLOW a situation which occured at the conference, is just not becoming or befitting to your role here!

It doesn’t make any of us look good.

I can only urge you to render your intelligence into a constructive solution and resolution, that will bring us together, because at this time, your actions are divisive, and it is clear to most everyone, that they will work against you.

Demanding money and calling others on their “deficiences” in an arrogant way is just not compassionate! And I would suppose, such actions will exclude you from a good working relationship with many...and you may believe you can go into the hills and get away from all this. However, we are here. All of us. Together.

You probably need to be with more “hippies”...and in the hills is where they are!

That you say I am not for long here?

Is that some kind of death threat or censorship of a supposedly all powerful maniac?

More than anything, I am saddened and distressed by what you have written. I FEEL it very deeply.

And It doesn’t feel very nice.

Call me weak, or whatever you like, however, this is the central pulse, the reality we share which gives our lives meaning and purpose.

Julian.

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Arghhh get yer hand off it Julian, son of Mulga, yer dreamin'.

Call me weak

OK, yer weak.

[This message has been edited by Darklight (edited 27 February 2002).]

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I am sick of people using MY space to do me harm. You have no idea of what went on and don't even acknowledge the 'facts' Floyd himself agreed to. How can you be part of a discussion you have no idea about?

Bye!

If anyone has a problem with me deleting people, then feel free to open your own forums. This is NOT a public forum anymore.

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