Adios...

[Guest wira]

In relation to the "So, how was it?" thread, and the venomous spew found within...

Everyone, I'm going.

I'm sick of it. I've tried to remain impartial and balanced every since this crap broke out last year, and for quite a while there I thought it was pretty clear cut, and that Torsten had been reasonable and honest. I've listened to voices from all sides, balanced everything out, and eventually, reluctantly, came to see that maybe it wasn't so simple. With what I witnessed at the conference, I no longer have any doubt.

This will be unpleasant, but as I'm leaving, I feel I owe my friends here an explanation of some sort. I could go on for pages, but I'll keep it short and sour so I don't do too much damage. I'm pretty upset about this so please forgive any undue harshness; however, it has got to the point where I feel this has to be said, and unfortunately it isn't pretty. Torsten and Darklight, you are both just as bad as Mulga, only in [slightly] different ways. Of course you know that I am one of the "scumbags" you refer to but didn't name. All because, presumably, I was able to talk with the other parties rather than back your vindictiveness. Because I was able to put aside differences and carry on friendships despite my strong disapproval of Mulga's tactics and on-line ranting. Because some of us sitting with Mulga were interested in discussing solutions rather than fostering hatred and division. The "sheepish looks" you refer to did not come from me, unless you were reading yourself in my eyes. I definitely thought you were the one giving me the sheepish looks, Torsten, because you knew I had been standing back and taking it all in, watching as you refused any moderated discussion, yelled and exploded, and made threats to shut down the conference. Whilst watching and listening I could have sworn it was you who threatened to call the police, not Nen. Certainly I avoided you all weekend, not wishing to speak with you. I know now that you don't represent any community that I want to be any part of, and having seen how you deceive yourself and others, I could see no point in trying to talk with you about it. The whole entheogenic experience is wasted on you, if you think your behaviour, and especially your rants on the above-mentioned thread, are in any way acceptable in a mature and compassionate community. And isn't that what most of us want? Aren't we meant to be learning from this? I didn't agree with the gatecrashing either, but there were many ways it could have been dealt with that would have maintained your integrity, not interfered with the good vibes of the conference, and maybe even have healed the situation once and for all. I don't know how long you think this pathetic affair can carry on without real communication and resolution taking place somewhere along the line. Suing people sure doesn't help, and says a lot about the kind of ethic you represent; likewise for Mulga, who had threatened to sue Torsten in the past.

I'm sick of being manipulated and lied to, though I have to wonder if you even know you're doing it. You and Mulga both have a lot of deep-seated problems, if only you could admit it to yourselves and wake up from the egotistical delusions you're in. I'm sick of you, Torsten, trying to turn me against some of my friends because you have problems with them, and insulting people who have had more true wisdom to offer this community than you ever could.

So, knowing that I'm not welcome by the owner of this site and his pit-bull, and that it has become over-run with the acceptance of spite, divisiveness, revenge, violence and dishonesty - this is not the kind of community I want to be a part of. Torsten, please remove my SAB web-space, which I never used, and after a few weeks ago, intended never to use. I don't want anything else to do with this place. Sorry to those who might want me to stay, but after this, the very thought of continuing to contribute here sickens me.

Torsten and Darklight can carry on without my input, and for anyone who wishes to contact me, my e-mail is [email protected]

[waterdragon]

well that's just rooted. with your passing, quality info is going to be harder to obtain. personally i'm not involved in the politics of the t/m dispute and until the intrusion at the conference i had little to offer any side of the dispute. mulga however in a recent series of emails betwixt he and i, admitted that he knew torsten would react badly and i suspect that was his sole reason for showing up. speaking personally, again, these conferences are something of a highlight for me as they allow me to meet and network and buy, sell, trade, etc. this dispute threatens the continuation of such events and that outcome pisses me off. i still believe torsten was put in an awkward situation, some say he could have handled it better but i'm all out of ideas. i'd have probably done worse so i'm not about to judge. i feel the community will be worse off when you're gone and i hope you'll drop in and let everyone know about your book if there comes a time when it doesn't disturb you to post here.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by wira:

Of course you know that I am one of the "scumbags" you refer to but didn't name.

I wasn't hiding the fact.

Because some of us sitting with Mulga were interested in discussing solutions rather than fostering hatred and division.

I listened to some of the conversations that were held around Mulga. I was also told about some of them. Very little of it actually had to do with the problem (or any attempt to remove him), but was rather a total acceptance of their presence and a support for them setting up a space close to the venue. All those present supported him, his intrusion and his further presence. is this what I paid half you fucking ticket for????

The "sheepish looks" you refer to did not come from me

actually they did. I was trying to see how long you would try to sit on the fence. My glances and stares were met by twisted grins and subdued eyes.

watching as you refused any moderated discussion

this was not the place for it. he had no right to be there. and he knew it. you knew it. and you supported his attempts at intrusion.

yelled and exploded

yes, I lost my temper. so?? I have had to put up with his daily (reduced to weekly) crap for 9 months now. I am tired of it. I don't have the strength or the patience to deal with it. he knew that and you knew that.

and made threats to shut down the conference.

In fact it was Nen who threatened to have the conference shut down by the police. There were quite a few witnesses. Some of them weren't even stoned.

Whilst watching and listening I could have sworn it was you who threatened to call the police, not Nen.

Why would I call the police?? Just think about it for a moment. I was responsible for everythign there. Anything involving the police would have bounced right back onto me. and there would have been nothing I coud do to defend myself. This very dilemma was the reason why I had no further options and dumped the problem on the other organisers.

Certainly I avoided you all weekend, not wishing to speak with you.

probably a good thing.

I didn't agree with the gatecrashing either, but there were many ways it could have been dealt with that would have maintained your integrity, not interfered with the good vibes of the conference, and maybe even have healed the situation once and for all.

No, there was no way to deal with this. You're deluding yourself. Mulga will only stop once he wins. he has said so to me. he is not prepared to make any compromise even when I offered them. i gave in several times and made room for his demands, only to be crapped on again and again. Enough is enough.

I don't know how long you think this pathetic affair can carry on without real communication and resolution taking place somewhere along the line.

Don't you understand that there doesn't need to be a resolution. I am happy to 'agree to disagree' and for him to stay out of my life. I stay out of his life anyway. he is the one who constantly re-enters my space and demands to be part of it. I don't want him there, and after all this there will never be room for him again. However, i would never interfere with anything he does, whether this is in business or just community.

Why don't you and everyone else just give up trying to bring us back together. I don't like the guy and want nothing to do with him. Is that so hard to understand? and is it not fair enough??

Suing people sure doesn't help, and says a lot about the kind of ethic you represent

Mulga could have done the right thing and paid for last years withheld monies and for the EB2 ticket. This is what i am sueing him for. he has caused me massive business losses and many hours of wasted time. he will never repay any of that unless he is forced to. I will drop the suit if he pays the minimum amoutn he owes voluntarily.

I'm sick of being manipulated and lied to

I am happy to discuss this privately or publically. I have never lied in any of this and have witnesses and proof for almost everything. I have also prooved many of Mulga's lies that he has spread amongst my friends and the local community. I have nothing to hide.

though I have to wonder if you even know you're doing it.

well, tell me what they are and I will tell you if it is the truth.

You and Mulga both have a lot of deep-seated problems, if only you could admit it to yourselves and wake up from the egotistical delusions you're in.

My problem is Mulga. If he didn't constantly intefere in my life I would have forgotten about him a long time ago. I have better things to do than to bother with him - and that is the crux of the problem. If that is the wrong attitude then I am sorry, but that is just how I am.

I'm sick of you, Torsten, trying to turn me against some of my friends because you have problems with them

I don't remember ever having done that (please correct me if I am wrong). I asked for your help once, but respected that you might not be able to help due to your split loyalties. I have never asked you to take sides.

I am not going to pine after anyone. if this board becomes quiet or lifeless then I will just shut it down. But I am not going to let Mulga and his friends affect my life anymore. It is not me who looses anything here. If the choice is between putting up with daily crap from insane people or living a quiet solitary life, then I am happy being a hermit on my mountain.

[anubian lights]

Sitting on a mountain as a hermit sounds real fine torsten. The outside world is full of crap.

[waterdragon]

QUIET OR LIFELESS - BE FUCKED. I'M STILL HERE AND AS YOU CAN SEE I'M VERY LOUD. now that everyone is awake it might be a good time to point out that what we have here is a community of sorts. everyone here brings different skills and opinions to the community. as with any community people will disagree and some will absolutely loathe one another. for example in the community in which i live there are people i wouldn't piss on if they burst into flame, that is my right. this would be a dull place indeed if everyone just agreed with each other just to keep the peace. it's not good to see someone vote with their feet but that is their right.

[anubian lights]

yeah, take it easy Wira, seen some bullshit on the boards at the conference etc..

But hopefully we can keep the board open for everyone to have their say. Over-reacting is something we all do. And I don't mean Wira I mean every one!

[Torsten]

waterdragon - I have no intention of closing the forums. however, the last 8 months or so have shown me that there is little point in swimming against the stream for extended periods of time. I have never had to deal with a stalker before and maybe I am not dealing with it all that well, but at the moment I just want my peace and quiet and to get on with my life rather than with Mulga's.

if the forums die, then so be it. I doubt that they will anytime soon, but I am not going to fight for it either way. I have better things to do and my life is too precious to waste on these issues. You have no idea how much this has taken out of me for the last few months. If people want to cause me grief, then they are not welcome anymore. but please don't go all hypersensitive on me again like some people did last time. I can take plenty of criticism. It is only once people start telling lies or opining without havign a fucking clue of what really went on that I will get peeved. No one gets kicked without warning anyway.

One thing is for sure, that i don't forget. People in my area go through cycles of fucking each other over and then making up only to start again a few months or years later. I don't. Getting fucked over means you get an insight into people and this insight can't be wiped away unless you have really bad memory. This is not to say that there is no room for forgiveness, but forgiving people doesn't mean that you have to let them back in your life.

I have supported many people blindly over the last few years (as I do wherever I go) and I have never been backstabbed, deceived, and used by so many so-called friends at once. I even supported people who I knew were working against me - just so that no one could say I was being divisive. This is a hard lesson for me, but simply put I have lost trust and faith in people. I have my friends. Friends I have had for many, many years. I will concentrate on them rather than trying to please the masses and the undeserving pricks I have come to know in the last little while. I have also found some new friends (no, not just blind allies) in all this upheaval, which makes it easy to let go of some of those I thought were friends. You have no idea how important a hug was as the shit was hitting the fan at EB2.

But most of all I have learnt about how easily people believe in something they did not see, hear, or experience, just because they want to believe. It is giving me the feeling that maybe what some of the people in the ethnobot community seek is not spirituality or truth, but religion. Somethign to follow blindly without questioning the validity. And I know that most who this applies to will say that they did not follow Mulga blindly..... however only one single person involved ever asked me if any of what Mulga was saying is true. One single person who didn't swallow his stories hook, line and sinker. I know that most of this doesn't apply to most of the people reading this, but it is what has been occupying me primarily. It is ad that dedicated and enthusiastic people like waterdragon and many others will suffer because of the actions and inactions of a few people.

Either way, i need some time to reflect on all this and to bring the problems to an end.

[HyperSpaceCowboy]

I know nobody in Sydney that i can discuss or share experiances of the psychadelic kind with. The one person that introduced me to it all has buggered off to live that hermit life up north.

It's a constant struggle to remind myself from time to time that yes i'm still sane - i think.... see there i am struggling again!

This forum has been a godsend.

you're a bunch of freaks. i love it.

EB was one thing, and there were issues there. - but so what?

This is where it is, guys. Not EB. Not Mulga, not Torston.

Be Here Now!

It sounds to me that torston is quite happy to drop the whole subject and carry the site on. Bless him for that. lets not jepordise it.

Sure there are things to be sorted out between certain people, but so what?! If i have a problem with my girlfriend i dont tell her family about it. we sort it out ourselves.

sometimes i ramble on and on about crap im sure no one really cares about. i dont too often catch myself doing it but now i have.

peace

[gomaos]

Cool hyperspacecowboy i agree with you.

I'm in a similar situation: I'm the only entheogen freak around here, apart from a few people who occasionally drop by (mesqualero, ramon, oh yes, and reville was been here, and gem).

Mostly I feel like an outsider, and if it wasn't for this site, I wouldn't know where to look....

But it's all gonna change, people are gonna wake up, and things will get better....

[shroomy]

Dear Wira

im lost for words, you will be missed and I for one will be sad to see you go. for two years I have been posting on sab and in that two years i,ve learnt IMHO a lot, and your posts and replies have contributed a vast amount of that knowledge. I also spent some small amount of time talking to you at this years eb conference about your upcoming book and stuff and all I ask is you that you take some time in the future to reconcider your position and come back from time to time.

Take care

Shroomy.

[Guest Mesqualero]

Originally posted by gomaos:

Mostly I feel like an outsider, and if it wasn't for this site, I wouldn't know where to look....

But it's all gonna change, people are gonna wake up, and things will get better....

yep i totally agree there and I'll add one thing:

It is the people of my generation... ie younger people who will be the ones to either make or break this movement...

Though the young people I have met in "my circle" who are genuinely interested in Entheogens for the more abstract and spiritual reasons, rather than just "yeah man it gets you high doesnt it?", I can probably count on one hand, two at the most.

Though this is just another indication that I don't meet enough ppl!!!

Most of the people in my age bracket who are interested in Entheogens have no idea where to start where to look.... what plants are interesting... they have no idea that Australia has a quite active (though relatively small compared to other countries) Ethnobotany community....

The risk in exposing this scene to more younger people though is that the people who are probably not particularly wanted ie: Reckless abusers of any substance they can find cheaply will also get wind of what is happening blah blah...... A current affair finds out blah blah..... you know the story....

Am I making sense or am I just rambling on...

Anyway All i know is the people who need the information the most find me and I give them what they need

I am a psychedelic youth guru LOL ahhhh

Anyway.... I don't think i made any valid points here at all....

[waterdragon]

a funny thing happened at a conference recently. after an initial disruption by smirky and his irrational disciple and much carrying on, it was put to anyone within earshot "oh don't worry about torsten - we don't need him to continue with the conference". even in my befuddled state i still took the time to mock them before the power of speech temporarily left me.

oh yes that torsten he's such a selfish bastard that he was actually considering leaving the conference late the following night to retrieve some plants just because shroomy and myself expressed disappointment at not seeing a shaman aust display.

i've never claimed to be a calm and rational individual. calmness and enlightenment have thus far eluded me. obviously a number of people have bought into mulgas spiel so i guess in some insignificant, pissy little fashion he could consider his intrusion a success. and so i shall continue to mock the clown because it pleases me to do so.

[Darklight]

Originally posted by waterdragon:

i've never claimed to be a calm and rational individual.

Me either. I can be calm and rational but it isn't always my first priority

Conflict fascinates me. In my former days I'd avoid it like the plague, now I find its as good a learning ground as anywhere else. How someone handles conflict says a lot about their personality. Watching groups deal with it over time is so complex as to leave me reeling. Maybe its like studying spiders or something- so few ppl want to look at the topic that the much of the field remains open to examination

Many of the most destructive acts I have seen weren't violent, they were underhand or sly, or cowardly. Which is why I find the view that violence constitutes the worst facet of conflict so incongruous. I find ppl who eschew a quick and simple physical act as somehow less worthy than an extended non-physical tortuous psychological fuckover ( gomaos you've been through how many divorce settlements ) are ppl I generally find to have a poor sense of perspective and a limited experience of life. But that's just my opinion. I figure if it hurts bad, the method of delivery is inconsequential.

Wira I will be sorry to lose your expertise here, personal ethical differences aside. It's not me or Torsten you're cutting out, it's the ppl starting out who are not only informed but inspired to continue by high quality and thorough work.

I was under the impression that you had sufficient online experience to understand the temporary nature of such emotional peak periods. And I had hoped that you understood that should Mulga refrain from using the forums as was requested under his agreement to abide by forum rules, then the shit you're currently witnessing which issues from my keyboard wouldn't be here. But it's your call.

[This message has been edited by Darklight (edited 01 March 2002).]

[t st tantra]

wira, we need you,and i think you may need us too.your disagreement is not with everyone.if you must leave ,all the best etc and please review your decision in the future.

father figures are in short supply?

[somnif]

Wira,

I am really sorry to hear about your

decision. Your display of knowledge has

been truly inspiring, also a little

humbling.

Take care, and ensure that you let us know

when the book is done!

*sigh*