myco Posted December 3, 2013 (edited) well lets just say this i think the word "clone" is wats making this confusing for people think of it like this if you were to plant out some normal bridge seeds and you got a monstrose plant that grew large and grew into what looked exactly like a "clone A" or even a "clone B" would you just call it what it resembles or would you decide your going to call it a "clone C" i planted out a litteral forest of bridge seedlings i have 2 of these seedlings that could possibly be TBM's they have both put out pups they are still way to small to know whats going on with them exactly but like i say if they grow to resemble say the clumping version "clone B" i think thats exactly what i would call it i wouldnt be jumping up saying its a completely different plant and give it a new name if it showed the exact same traits and like i said earlier i think its pretty safe to say that not every TBM in the world has come from just 2 plants (clone A & clone B ) im sure many people have had thier own grow from seed and done exactly as i said just called it what it resembles Edited December 3, 2013 by myco 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Philocacti Posted December 3, 2013 Eatfoo - I totally agree, I got your point. So let's just call them TBM "type A" for the long one and TBM "type B" for the short segmented on, as M S Smith proposed in another discussion concerning this very topic 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
terracottacactus Posted December 3, 2013 @aero_glass Welcome to the forum btw! I was so excited about the TMBs that I forgot to say hello. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kykeion Posted December 3, 2013 (edited) but if someone was to say pollinate a clone A with another clone A and then that seed had produced a crest or crests wouldn't it still technically be a clone A No, the offspring would not still be a clone A. While both "parents" would have all of the same genes to pass on to offspring, each seed/potential plant would have a different mixture of these genes. No doubt there would be a high number of monstrose offspring resembling the parent plants, but their genetic makeup would not be identical, meaning they are not technically clones. Additionally there would likely be some non-monstrose "standard" appearance offspring as well. well lets just say this i think the word "clone" is wats making this confusing for people think of it like this if you were to plant out some normal bridge seeds and you got a monstrose plant that grew large and grew into what looked exactly like a "clone A" or even a "clone B" would you just call it what it resembles or would you decide your going to call it a "clone C" i planted out a litteral forest of bridge seedlings i have 2 of these seedlings that could possibly be TBM's they have both put out pups they are still way to small to know whats going on with them exactly but like i say if they grow to resemble say the clumping version "clone B" i think thats exactly what i would call it i wouldnt be jumping up saying its a completely different plant and give it a new name if it showed the exact same traits and like i said earlier i think its pretty safe to say that not every TBM in the world has come from just 2 plants (clone A & clone B ) im sure many people have had thier own grow from seed and done exactly as i said just called it what it resembles You are exactly right. It is the word clone that is making this confusing for people. From http://www.merriam-webster.com: 1clone noun \ˈklōn\ biology : a plant or animal that is grown from one cell of its parent and that has exactly the same genes as its parent : a product (such as a computer) that is a copy of another product produced by a well-known company : a person or thing that appears to be an exact copy of another person or thing Full Definition of CLONE 1 a : the aggregate of genetically identical cells or organisms asexually produced by a single progenitor cell or organism b : an individual grown from a single somatic cell or cell nucleus and genetically identical to it c : a group of replicas of all or part of a macromolecule and especially DNA <clones of identical recombinant DNA sequences> 2 : one that appears to be a copy of an original form : duplicate <a clone of a personal computer> The confusion arises from the fact that some folks are using the biological definition of clone, ie two or more plants with identical genetic coding. And some folks are using the second definition above, ie that two or more plants that look the same are the same clone. While the second definition approach works ok with TBMs, for example, it does not work when discussing other named clones, ie Eileen, Psych00, etc. Ideally we all need to be using the biological definition otherwise there is no point at all in referring to anything by clone name as I could call any bridgesii that resembles Eileen, Eileen, thereby defeating the whole purpose of assigning clone designations. In your example above myco, you would have a completely different plant, and if you propagated it by cutting the appropriate thing to do would be to call it clone c, and then describe it as resembling clone a or b. I suspect that bridgesiis produce monstrose seed fairly commonly (relative to other species) and that there is a range of forms (from long to short) that these new monstrose specimen are likely to take. I think that you are probably right about folks growing a TBM from seed, then applying the clone letter that most closely resembles what they have grown. Eatfoo - I totally agree, I got your point. So let's just call them TBM "type A" for the long one and TBM "type B" for the short segmented on, as M S Smith proposed in another discussion concerning this very topic I agree with M S Smith and Philocacti on this point. As myco pointed out above, I think it is unlikely that every TBM plant in existence derive from just two original mutations. I have heard a number anecdotal accounts of people getting monstrose T. bridgesii seedlings when growing from seed, and I myself have TBMs in my collection with enough variation between them to suggest different genetic lines. I personally have stopped referring to TBMs by clone letter, and have given up on designating between "a" and "b" because of the SS/Cactus-Art confusion. At this point I simply refer to them as long form/type and short form/type. Given all of the above, referring to the various TBMs as being a certain type or form rather than clone seems to be the best option. At least until someone does some genetic analysis to clear this all up. And even then if there are in fact more than just two clone lines out there then referring to specific clone lines may not be realistic. Sorry to have hijacked this thread, this issue just seems to have pushed my buttons today I guess. None of this is intended to be an attack on any of the parties involved, sorry if any tone implies such. Edited December 3, 2013 by Kykeion 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tripsis Posted December 3, 2013 You are all forgetting that by the very nature of being monstrose, growth in unpredictable. Nitrogen's hybrid mutants are a perfect example. One seedling can produce several different morphological forms. If that one seedling was then cut up and propagated, the resulting clones would resemble completely different plants from diverse genetic backgrounds, yet would all in fact still be clones. There is nothing saying that the TBM crest is not the same clone as one of the purely monstrose TBM forms. M S Smith has commented that he's noticed that the TBM crest often reverts to monstrose growth, but almost never does the reverse happen. The phenotypic range you see amongst either form doesn't imply that they originated from more than two clones; that is pure conjecture. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cactuscarl Posted December 3, 2013 (edited) "think of it like this if you were to plant out some normal bridge seeds and you got a monstrose plant that grew large and grew into what looked exactly like a "clone A" or even a "clone B" would you just call it what it resembles or would you decide your going to call it a "clone C"" I would call it clone c. For one its not a clone of a or b. I mean your not going to call a plant that looks exactly like eileen, Eileen are you? If that where the case there would be nothing stopping me from cutting the long sections off my clone 'a' and calling it clone 'b' I mean it looks the same. Plus wouldn't you rather know you have something a little different? Edited December 3, 2013 by cactuscarl 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naja naja Posted December 3, 2013 Trichs are self sterile. So a cross of clone a with clone a is impossible. Granny Smith apples. Red delis ious apples Navel oranges Bud sports. Etc etc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myco Posted December 4, 2013 At this point I simply refer to them as long form/type and short form/type. Given all of the above, referring to the various TBMs as being a certain type or form rather than clone seems to be the best option. At least until someone does some genetic analysis to clear this all up. And even then if there are in fact more than just two clone lines out there then referring to specific clone lines may not be realistic. . I totally agree with you here I think we should be referring to them as Type A and Type B rather than clones Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myco Posted December 4, 2013 Trichs are self sterile. So a cross of clone a with clone a is impossible. Sorry I've never done much reading on fertility of trichos as unfortunately none of mine have ever flowered But I guess this still brings into question the fact that crests can very often revert and throw normal shoots So where did your particular crested TBM seeds come from did they originate from a Clone A or a Clone B I guess That's really wat would determine if it were to throw normal shoots and what those normal shoots would be Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bush Turkey Posted December 4, 2013 There is a clone in WA that looks like a cross between "type A" and "type B". It grows really small knobs on the bottom but at the top it grows long skinny pups upto 25cm high. Then there is the typical big round knob type 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Philocacti Posted December 4, 2013 I believe we all agree on the main point, but we're using different terminology 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naja naja Posted December 4, 2013 The crest is most likely a bud sport mutation of either clone a or b. since the reverted growth resembles the long joint form. I would guess it is a mutation of the long joint form. Most likely a bud sport. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tipz Posted December 4, 2013 Pretty sure I have the long form taken from a pup that was thrown from a straight bridge crest ( only one in oz ). Collector in WA has that crest now... wish I could get in touch to obtain a cutting back from him. It will take a little more growth to be definitive. It has just finished throwing 2 more pups. Happy to send one on to someone free of charge to play around with as soon as it's big enough to separate and send on. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tipz Posted December 4, 2013 And for what It is worth, I seem to have two diff var of the short form. One has really really chunky shafts ! The other one seems to grow a multitude of micro penis's. Kinda choad like :D 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myco Posted December 4, 2013 Pretty sure I have the long form taken from a pup that was thrown from a straight bridge crest ( only one in oz ). Collector in WA has that crest now... wish I could get in touch to obtain a cutting back from him. I'm sure he'd be happy to send ya a cut mate hopefully by the end of the growing season this is how he's looking now you can see where it was cut in this picture and the grafted cut 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Philocacti Posted December 4, 2013 Sorry to get off topics, but myco how did you paste these photobucket links. Whenever I try I get a msg that the board doesn't allow it ........???? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myco Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) all good still a valid question i think others have had trouble with this to when i click on and look at a picture in my photobucket library it has a box on the side wich says at the top links to share this photo use the last one in the box the IMG link the code will start off with [url= edit: can i just add maybe it would be a good idea for us to hunt around for as many different photos of TBM crests wether you own them or not maybe a wider view of the different looks these are showing would help to narrow down different variations in them and possibly the origins of some of them just a thought Edited December 4, 2013 by myco 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tripsis Posted December 4, 2013 Shame that TBM crest is no longer cresting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myco Posted December 4, 2013 the pup on the original is beggining to flatten out im hoping that it will take on its crested form with my experience with crests its far more likely to crest if i leave it rather than removing it i will eventualy graft the main portion with strong cresting if it comes to it that was why i took i nice crested piece to graft unfortunately rather than growing out it immediately pupped only time will tell if these pups will crest or not 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tripsis Posted December 4, 2013 Hope it does, myco. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
irabionist Posted December 5, 2013 Heh, not the only TBM Crest in Oz ;) I will post up more photos when the grafts pup! 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myco Posted December 5, 2013 I thought I remembered someone else in oz having one nice specimen ya got there sabry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2XB Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) What sort is this??? Very small but way more slender compared to my others... Edited December 6, 2013 by doublebenno 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
