holy shit

[Pablo]

wock wock check check no-o-o wock wock technorocker

[Torsten]

Originally posted by Schitztrip:

What the news coverage seems to be ignoring though, is that it was none other than the American CIA who trained this guy how to be a terrorist.

And they did this all over the world and now these people are coming back to bite them in the ass.

When Saddam was killing Iranians (post Shah) he was a goodie goodie, handled by none other than Dubya's daddy. At the time the US was quite happy to ingoe that he was also killing his own people (the kurds) as long as the US could benefit financially and especially in respect to oil. Weapons deals were VERY big business and Adnan Kashogi (sp?) was one of the people who benefited most, supplying US weapons to both sides.

The US has no morals. None of the wars they have gotten involved in over the last 30 years have been about anything other than money. When a struggle for peace and independence comes around that has no financial component (such as East Timor), then they have no interest.

The whole thing is highly dodgy – its hard to believe a guy living in the middle of nowhere in a tent could orchestrate something like this.

Let's not be naive. Bin Laden (by his own admission) has a vast network and almost unlimited resources at his disposal. All countries with fundamentalist groups or governments support him. If anything, I am surprised that he hasn't done more damage already.

I just heard that books were found on how to fly planes in the back seat of a car or something and that they were written in Arabic. Gee those guys must be really fast learners, read a book and know how to accurately fly a plane in to the World Trade Centre.

Maybe the books belong to the pilot that crashed before getting his plane to the destination https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.shaman-australis.com/ubb/wink.gif&key=4919fe9fb0297038d452b640b095bc279f8cc68a37fc8152fee24836b0d8f0df

Still, Americans, it seems abhor terrorism, unless they re the ones doing the terrorising.

yes, yes, yes. And cos they control the media efficiently we rarely hear about any of their evil work. or if we hear about it, then it already has 'the truth' stamped on it. Like, for example, who the fuck knows whether that chem factory in Sudan they bombed was actually a chemical weapons plant. Everyone else disputed it, but the media reported it as matter of fact. The US can't even identify buildings properly (eg blowing up Chinese embassies), so how can they be sure what is in them. And the sheep just ignore the loss of life cos 'they were just sudanese chemical weapons manufaturers'. To the sudanese this is the same terrorism that just happened in the US.

They trained terrorists to kill thousands of people in Nicaragua in the 80s, not to mention the oppressive regimes that they have funded in say Chile, Vietnam, Indonesia, Gaza and Salvador.

Our 5 year political and historical memory doesn't allow for anyone taking such issues into account. When the US first bombed Iraq, no one I talked to even knew that Kuwait used to be Iraqi territory in the past (until US and international community re-drew the borders for their friends) and that they just wanted it (and the oil it produces) back.

the possibility that it was another Tim Mcveigh wasn’t even considered!

here is that 5 years memory again. When McVeigh did his thing, it was Bin Laden who was immediately blamed by the authorities and by the media. Nice to have a convenient scapegoat.

Already Muslim groups have reported hate mail ad threatening phone calls. People are so ignorant!

The first e-mail I got about this was from a plant mailing list that said 'kill all arabs'. Really, this is what it boils down to - while we complain about the holy war that rages against the west, the west is doing exactly the same to islam. Now that we are over the commies, we need a new race/religion to focus our hatred on.

The Taliban and so forth only represent around 10percent of the total Muslim population anyway

I dislike almost all religions. I dislike fundamentalists even more. But I respect their choices and if the US really wants to promote freedom, then why doesn't it support the oppressed Palestine people, or at least support the UN resolutions against Israel. No, it sides with Israel, even though the Israeli government has been named as a racist government by the UN Humanrights commission. Support the US and you support racists.

[dutchie]

First thing, there is plenty of disturbed anti-US members in many rouge cells over in that part of the world willing tho die for the cause. There would be no shortage of people avaiable for this job. Theres always another 2 suicide bombers each week, so why wouldnt there be a few ready to learn to fly planes? Suice bombing or sucide flying, it there a difference?

"How can you make someone down a plane by threatening to stab them?"

Not threaten, just stab em and fly the plane? isnt that hard, a few ladies(Not to say that ladies wont kick back), a couple of piolts and nav crew. three dudes could take em out easy. No no can stop you if they aint movin. Then like I said, if a simple computer flight simulator like MSFlight( an exact replica of a 767, cockpit and controls)cann replicate a passenger liner, and you have minor flight experience, it wouldnt be that hard to fly an already taken off aircraft into a fucken huge bilding, or two..

As for getting on the planes, security is soo slack over there in domestic terminals, like our bloody bus service. again, getting 10 people or so into two or three airports,ok, it still requires planing but I still think it wouldnt be too hard.

[Guest reville]

i guess now the Americans really know what it means when the govt talks of "collateral damage".

Unfortunately they see themslves as the victims and dont see this as the retalliatory strike for everything from the blasting open of japan right up to their bombing of Serbia and beyond.

Itll do them good to realise just how it feels to live in a warzone.

Unfortunately they want blood.Instead of going oh yeah in a moment of self realisation

theyre just going to witchhunt someone and start WW3 in the process.

Im against any retalliatory action.like i read somewhere recently..

the deaths of the past dont justify the deaths of the future.

If we could see the US as the biggest kid on the block who got picked on by a smaller kid and the big kid absolutely kicked the shit out of that kid wed see it as the wrong way to solve conflict.why is this any different.

It is not for the US to go vigilante

someone else should do it and Osama should have a proper trial in an international court

[Being]

Does everyone agree America has the opportunity right now to show TRUE power and TRUE strength by not giving into the easy option of vengeance? It is distressing to constantly hear the term ‘War’ used by US officials.

America recognizing this as a clear sign that it needs to seriously review its foreign policies is also essential. It is clear America could not continue to refuse to think globally, yet still have a global impact for long without suffering consequences. Hopefully this will prove to be a great opportunity for real change.

I am deeply saddened by this as all global citizens should be. We all have a responsibility to make sure that people of middle eastern origins in particular, living in this country feel safe and protected, as it must be a terrifying time for them right now.

Michael Moore has some very valid points, especially concerning Airline safety, in his latest message which I received via email yesterday, you can read it here http://www.michaelmoore.com/2001_0912.html

My auntie actually lives and works quite close to the Pentagon and has spent the past few days in a bomb shelter. One of her close friends works in the World Trade Center and could be among those injured or killed. My heart goes out to anyone directly affected by this tragedy.

[Guest mandragora]

l

Edited April 17, 2007 by mandragora

[Guest tippo]

i ask this.........how sure can we be that what we see and what we are told holds any substance. we know only what comes out of the television.....the best mind control around,how do we know we are not being directed towards particular viewpoints?. its hard to discern between good and evil and even harder to decipher reality? is the conspiracy theory mentioned early in the thread too farfetched to be right. how can any of us know. all i know is that i have been scared for years.. and now that fear has magnified immensely. america is no innocent thats for sure.....but the people and the government are two entirely seperate entities. why is there so much evil and what is it going to take to end this mindset throughout the world why is peace so hard?this cant go on much longer too much pain too much suffering its so much easier to love. southerner

[Guest reville]

Now that the excitement has abated id like to quote murple off the shroomery as summing up my entire opinion on the matter - all previous statemnets retracted

Its damn discouraging to see how incredibly stupid people are, and I only hope its a reflection of fear and not a reflection of our intelligence as a nation.

The prevailing attitude seems to be "If it was terrorists, it musta been Arabs!"

Uhm... why? Thats a pretty idiotic racist attitude. Do you realize how many people hate the US because of our imperialist "policeman of the world" shtick? The problem with being an evil empire is that sooner or later someone's going to get fed up and bitchslap you, and thats what just happened to us.

Sure, maybe it was bin Laden. Or it could've been Saddam Hussein... I think being bombed on a semi-regular basis for TEN YEARS by the same country that told us "Sure, we won't mind if you annex Kuwait" might make me a little upset too. It definately could've been an Arabic group. I doubt our "Israel can do no wrong" policies have made many friends.

But lets look at other options before jumping to conclusions. There are plenty of pissed off countries out there...Serbia, Cuba and North Korea all come to mind. Then there are foreign non-national groups to consider as well...

You folks do realize the havoc that the US is wreaking on the environment in Colombia by spraying coca crops,right? We're destroying not just coca but food crops and rainforest, not to mention making people sick. The

Colombian drug cartels have a pretty massive history of violence, and I certainly wouldn't rule them out.

Then we have to consider the very real possibility of domestic terrorism. Consider the biggest target was the World Trade Center. You guys are aware of all the fanatic anti-WTO protestors running around these days, right? Seattle? Toronto? Some of those morons are very radical revolutionary Marxist or anarchist types who I could very easily see wanting to pull off something like this.

Remember, after the Oklahoma City bombing, everyone was screaming "Arabs did it!" - and it turned out to be a good ole boy from our own United States military.

Lets stop this idiotic bigotry and hate, the kind of attitude that starts saying "bomb the ragheads" is the same attitude that got us attacked yesterday. Instead of looking for revenge perhaps we should stop and think why it is that so many people hate and despise us. We worked pretty long and hard at earning this attack on us. Its time to stop pushing the world around and be the bastion of freedom and peace we keep pretending to be.

well said id say.and that wraps it up for me.

[rkundalini]

heh heh, yes it would be a good opportunity for the U.S. to show true strength and behave like adults instead of stupid little tit-for-tat children. But of course, it won't happen. Not to start a war over this would be political suicide, and in fact I bet virtually all of those in congress are so full of their own testicles that they would never consider any other alternative than murderous retribution.

As others have said, although this is whole thing is almost surreal in its horror, nevertheless maybe, just maybe, this will cause some Americans to take a critical look at their nation.

[Guest fruers]

I got up yesterday and as usual headed for the beach, the sun was shining, the water was cool, the wind was crisp. Nothing changed in the *real* world yesterday.

[?SaToriBluE?]

I would not be so quick to 'bash the Americans' I think it is a bit hypocritical for one thing. I do not know any nation, or any citizan of any nation on Earth for that matter whom are in a position to be self righteous. For all America's faults they are the ones who will be there at our side if we are ever in need.

I would not be so quick to condemn them, for all their faults they are pretty much the only country in the world capable of acting on a planetary level and so far they have done much to preserve peace in the world.

Liberating Europe springs to mind, or are our memories that short.

They have made mistakes, sure, that is life is it not? We live and we learn.

I mean do not get me wrong, you do not think I like the whole American Christian problem do you? Did anyone notice John Warner? I take the good with the bad and think about what I can do to improve things.

Everything could always completely change in the blink of an eye. I wonder if all young worlds are this fun?

[This message has been edited by ?SaToriBluE? (edited 14 September 2001).]

[waterdragon]

well the U.S got a much needed kick in the balls. it's all very well to sit back and watch their governments grubby little wars on TV but not nearly as much fun when it hots up close to home.

i get heartily sick of the 'suffering' angle that the media plays on. little thought is given to the lives the U.S destroys overseas with their constant meddling in the affairs of other countries. the media inference seems to be that somehow these american lives are more important than all others.

the U.S would do well to look after its own borders. who elected them global overlords? they have bases and operatives everywhere, how long did they think they could go on without this happening?

nothing like a war to stimulate the economy, trim down the excess poulation and gain more territory. the chinese didn't take the bait - much to their credit, but the coming attack on the arab nations (and we all know it's coming) will not be taken lightly. could be a good time to stock up on fuel.

[spaced]

I was going to wait until I knew the whole story before commenting on this one but by then either this thread or more people may be dead. Hence I've chosen to act sooner rather than later.

Firstly the attitude that "they deserved it." Exactly who may I ask are "they." This is a broad generalisation - the type of stereotyping that brought all this BS into existance in the first place. Would the term "they" include Terrence McKenna or Jonathon Ott? Would it include all the young children who died senselessly, who have never voted, who would have no idea what it was all about? Lets not eliminate people but stereotypes. Perhaps direct your anger towards faceless organisations, the 9-5 ethic, the marketing forces which keep us trapped like mice on the treadmill in the senseless void of consumeristic dissolusionment.

Very rarely does a country's government reflect the values of the people. Take drugs for instance. What percentage of the Australian population uses illicit drugs? (insert big No). Are drugs legal in Australia - no. Then by some twisted act of logic do you assume all Australians are right wing fundamentalist anti drug crussaders. And by extension of this logic do you assume Australian's support the killing of innocent children in peasant villages sustained off the income generated through coca plantations?

The reality is that people with larger than life egos perpetuate such atrocities. Add technology into the equation and it just gets worse. How would the US disaster occured in the stone ages - there would have been no high rise buildings and no jumbo jets to crash into them. "But", you argue "there would be no one policing everyone through high powered weaponary (and pesticides for illicit plants)" - anarchy essentially.

There is no such thing as organised crime in a system of anarchy. There is no such thing as a high rise building or a jet aeroplane.

Anarchy is nature - our true teacher and educator.

The US disaster will not put a dent in the country's mighty capitalist economy. As Bush says it hasn't put a dent in the American spirit. Change has got to come from the ground up. You can kick down an ant nest but the ants will rebuild it again. In reality all you're doing is dumping a load of bad karma on your soul brothers and sisters. The humans will adapt to the disaster - thats the nature of Homo sapiens. Homo sapiens is not however an ant. Brain washing and consumerist ideology has tried to mould man into an ant - trying to put order into a system of inherent disorder. The end result -

Be careful if you think you're having a discussion on politics. Nine times out of ten your talking about politicians, countries and the unfortunate masses governed and sent to war by the politicians in the name of that country.

In conclusion Rome was not built in a day nor can it be destroyed overnight.

They're kicking me out of here - its late.

Contemplate

(and check my spelling)

[gomaos]

Originally posted by spaced:

Perhaps direct your anger towards faceless organisations, the 9-5 ethic, the marketing forces which keep us trapped like mice on the treadmill in the senseless void of consumeristic dissolusionment.

i'M BEHIND YOU THERE, MAN, ALL THE WAY.

. What percentage of the Australian population uses illicit drugs?

I"d say that would be quite a few. Illicit marihuana seems to be everywhere, at the workplace, in the pubs, everywhere, you name it.

Then by some twisted act of logic do you assume all Australians are right wing fundamentalist anti drug crussaders. And by extension of this logic do you assume Australian's support the killing of innocent children in peasant villages sustained off the income generated through coca plantations?

Most people, even if they smoke dope, are still able to be square conservatives.

Joint in hand, they still condemn other people for taking cocaine, heroin, acid and whatsoever. So I would say, yes, most australians would support the killing in South America because of coca.

[Guest Saph]

It is a terrible what's happened and I feel for all those people who have lost family and friend's.

And it saddens me to see that the younger generation of to day really cant give to shits.

But said before it has happened and there is nothing anyone can do about,

And to keep dwelling on it aoly makes it worse.

[Guest will3]

Hi Everyone,

This is a short excerpt of a long email I just sent to Alan Clements, who is someone who has been very supportive about my work.

http://www.worlddharma.com

Julian.

--

"In the meeting between Meeah and I, much peace was made, in this war, and it is a war, we both know it is.

We know our war...our game.

It is a very big game, and we are all orchestrating it at many different levels; every movement is being watched, we are assessing each other all the time, we are our own pawns, we bet and take chances with probability.

We are hiding and seeking and finding and losing.

But we cannot be One with the games we play.

We can never win.

We cannot be One with this present game.

We have not yet played that One game.

And now we are living to know that peace is what we truly desire, and that the fulfillment of such is a hugely creative and expansive endeavor that WE have avoided for a long time...we have preferred war, it has appeared much easier. Yet it is not.

We are killing ourselves in division.

When we are clearly One.

We are One who do not know how to be One.

We are One who does not now how to love itself.

The world is being shown, and the world will show this.

The two poles of the world trade center imploding into the zero of the earth demonstrates this in metaphor. One can almost see sexual tension(!) between these two huge legs, not being able to create a circuit of union, not being able to truly go up or down, and two palnes that should be up, cause these two buildings to crumble down into the earth...their home.

On Wednesday night, I took 500 mics at Wategoes, right at the point. I spent most of the night there...generating statements and frequencies of my own. I created fields of geometrics, sound and light signifying and demonstrating the unified way. Addressing the world and assesing the situation.

You may know that Wategoes is an amplifier and magnifier, one can send and receive frequencies all over the world from here....mostly it is all kind of astrally wishing and washing opportunism...but I experience it like fallout and tune it and see where it takes me, to clarify and organise the collective psyche into some kind of coherency, and build from the rubble anew.

I was left shouting about the world trade center, as all Americans, all people, “What the fuck does that mean?”

What are YOU saying to me?

It dawns on me very directly and viscerally.

There is no single causative factor that can be blamed, no person, no group, no idea.

IT’S ALL THE SAME THING.

There is no who, they, or enemy: it is all US.

We are designing it right now for ourselves, individually and collectively.

In that space last night, I went right into the mechanics of it, and saw the intricacies of our production as I awoke to it.

I am indeed “Christof”, the god who is creating this now.

I am the One, I am the One Game Player.

That is who I am. There is no other.

I speak with you Alan, in this space, of a dome I create in a field as I realise this. You walk to me and invite me to speak, with earth transmitters radiating out what I say around the globe in collective consciousness.

As I spoke to you I became black, asian and white; my voice became every voice that exists on this earth and I speak as that voice.

I feel my short speech is definitive. My speech invites our unity, presents and states it as the only real and true possibility of Life. And that this event has brought the world to know and recognise it’s profound interconnectedness, more than ever."

[Guest VENDEJO]

Recent news (WW3 anybody?):

US and UK plan 10-year war: The Times

AFP - Britain and the US are planning a 10-year "war on terrorism" - Operation Noble Eagle - involving a new military and diplomatic strategy after the devastating strikes in America, The Times reported.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/