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gomaos

Refugees/boat people

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What are your opinions on the story?

If some people who have been bashed up, robbed, blackmailed, kicked etc came to your doorstep, what would you do?

Kick them again, or help them?

[This message has been edited by gomaos (edited 15 September 2001).]

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Originally posted by gomaos:

What are your opinions on the story?

Do YOU love [email protected]+n little johnny MORE because he didn't let them in?

Johnny brings out a lot of emotions in me, love is not close to being one of them. wink.gif

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Guest reville

Call me a redneck but i think they did the right thing.

Unrestrained immigration could be very harmful to a country like australia with a small population and i think the people of christmas island in particular have a right to draw the line somewhere

We need time to accustom ourselves to them and them to us. Proper programs for english literacy and skills assessment need to be established so we dont end up with ghettos.

I feel compassion but they have come a very long way to get to Australia in particular, that to me stinks of being economic refugees and forced entry should be strongly dealt with.

I understand the interests of the economic refugee but they cant be allowed preference over refugees fleeing political or racial persecution.If they were serious refugees then i dont inderstand why they didnt stay closer to home - like india ,pakistan even another predominantly muslim country like indonesia where they would be more familiar with the laws and customs.

Australia has accepted people from just about everywhere - and i feel that we are now starting to see people arriving from areas where the culture is more different from our own than ever before, this to me indicates caution and proper efforts for integration.

I wouldnt suggest a return to the 'good ol days' like when my grandparents, mum and uncle spent 2 years in a migrant hostel in nissen huts paying back their dues.

But an increase in immigration beyond that of humanitarian refugees and skilled migrants should serve some national interest because we are a big country but just about every one live in the big cities which are overcrowded.

Unless we find some reason/scheme to once again justify economic migration then we shouldnt do it.

Rather better funding of programs to alleviate local poverty and policies that stop exploiting poor countries might help convince most of them to stay at home and develop their own economies.

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i agree with rev.

being of yugoslav background, i've had a whole heap of relatives come to australia because of the war in the 90s... what have they made of their lives today? nothing. each and every one of them sits on the dole being unproductive leeches of society. they refuse to learn english and ud think its their loss, but no, they can still afford to go on holidays to europe. most unforgiveable of all, the feel that they owe nothing to this country.

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i beleive this to be a very difficult

situation

first off i agree with gamaos

of course we should do what we can to

help these people

but on the other hand reville is correct

about unrestrained immigratoin being very

harmful to our country

and where do we draw the line?

i have a lot of compassion for the hardships

that these people are going through

but there must be other solutions to the

problem than just letting everyone in

as we would be in danger of becoming

overcrowded

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Yes, this is no "Black and White"situation.

Most likely many of them are "economic refugees", which means to afford a place on a boat, they have to be able to pay the price, which enriches unscrupulous traders in human lives. So I am not fully endorsing them to come in. I am also very much against the present Immigration scheme, which for example enables rich business men from Hong Kong or similar places to migrate for the simple reason that they have enough money to start a business which in turn will extract plenty of money from australian citizens who buy a lot of rubbish imported from overseas.

I my (luckily gotten rid of)job as a taxi driver I have been the hobo who drives arrogant yuppies from their job to their homes in closed up "villages" barricaded behind walls with security cameras, guarded by security services, utterly controlled.

If you'd ask me, I wouldn't live there if it was free of charge. It it every little bit as described in Huxley's"Brave new World".

The ruling class of Yuppies with astronomic incomes on one side, and on the other side the taxi driver who works night shift for $10/hour and still has to pay GST on that.

Man, fuck that job.

Or perhaps I'm a "prole" as described in Orwell's"1984".

Immigration should not depend on the size of your bank account.

How can it be justified, that some businessman from overseas gets a migrant visa in no time because he's got a million to show for, and on the other hand the mother of my now 3 and a half year old son never got let in, because I was pennyless?

Where is fairness in that?

I admit I have helped to turn the Australian Vote for the worse because I helped my 2nd wife to come in in the 80s, and she then turned out to be ultra-conservative and excessively egotistic and now almost certainly votes for little johnny (can we have a new nickname for him, I'm getting sick of this one).

The same would be the case with many migrants. I remember having a real cool and care-free life under Bob Hawke, but because his government was so easy-going, they let a lot of the wrong (conservative) peoples in and now we are in this mess.

No, immigration should be ruled by NEED and humanitarian reasons, and not bank accounts.

What good is it for us if Li Chung migrates with a bank account of 5 millions, while Pik Khoksawang never gets to be a mother because she has no money?

Will any of us ever profit from Li Chungs Millions?

No, but he will most likely extract more millions from us so his bank account will double and triple.

The only solution for all of us would be to set a limit as to how rich rich people could be, i.e.any person who owns more than say(fictional amount)US 1 Million gets his money exceeding this amount taken away from him and it will be put into (public)schools, hospitals, refugee centres, drug rehabilitation centres, job creation and what have you.

Call it communism, but this is the only solution.

Because: Could YOU ever imagine NEEDING more than $1 million to lead a happy, fulfilled life?

Impossible.

So why do Bill Gates, Murdoch, Packer or whatever these assholes names are, need BILLIONS?

Beats me.

This still doesn't solve the boats people situation.

How about that:

We let them in, on probation, if they turn out to be filthy capitalists, put them back on boats, direction indonesia, and while we're at it, we also put on boats J. Howard,

the entire Liberal Party, National Party, One Nation and everybody else who thinks they got a god given right to rule and abuse this country.

"Fall mountains, just don't fall on me."

(Jimi Hendrix)

Disclaimer:

This post is not meant to be entirely serious.

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Guest fruers

What gets me about refugees is they flee their country to escape the hardships that their religions and customs have imposed on them, only to segragate into cultural "pockets" and continue the same way of life which brought peril to their homeland, doesn't make sense really. Our last "great immigration drive" consisted predominantly of lebanese and vietnamese immigrants, who's running the major crime rings in australia? Does anyone else fear that australia is being taken over from the inside? What defense do we have against these people when -- not if -- they decide to start waging their "holy wars" here? Did you bury your guns a couple of years ago wink.gif.

My father is from new zealand and came here when there was free passage between the two countries, now, that free passage has stopped because people were taking up new zealand citizenship to get into australia and by doing so severed an important tie between the two countries. Sucks huh?

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I am in general always for helping refugees. I was/am an activist supporting boatpeople from vietnam, cambodia, east timor and Irianjaya. I even agree with increased refugee intake of countries further away, such as afghanistan. And yes I am aware of the social and economic implications this has for australia.

B U T I do not agree with people wanting to come to australia for a better lifestyle without going through the immigration process. My family had to do it and I don't see why anyone else should cheat their way in.

What pissed me off the most about all the reporting about the Tampa crisis was that they always talked about afghani refugees. Fact is that only 14% of the afghani's that present to the UNHCR in Indonesia are actually afghani refugees. The vast majority are Pakistani's looking for a better lifestyle. This number changes slightly once they are asked to make written application to the UNHCR for refugee status. Most of them don't bother cos they know they have no chance to convince the UNHCR. From those that do make application only 40% are accepted by UNHCR to be refugees.

So as real refugee you would have no problem getting your claim assessed by UNHCR and then waiting for placement in one of the meber countries. Sure, the wait is long, but once a claim is assessed they are generally looked after to some degree by the UNHCR.

What is left after all this are all the people who didn't bother filing a written claim, those who got rejected and those who have enough money not to bother with the assessment. These are the ones that make it onto the boats and make their way to australia.

For every afghani refugee or supposed refugee the number of real refugees we take in that year goes down. We take in 12,000 afghani refugees per hear at the moment. By the end of the year we expect about 8,000 to 10,000 people arriving by boat. That mans we only take in a further 2,000 real refugees that are patiently waiting in UNHCR countries.

Personally I would rather not reward this process of stealing the places away from the real refugees. I would prefer to see real refugees make it here rather than those who are trying to scam the system.

Please also consider that indonesia is an island and that virtualy all refugees and pretenders arrive their by air (no, they are not boatpeople all the way). Airlines will only carry them with papers. Almost all real refugees have papers wich they present to UNHCR to make their claims easier to assess. However, most of those who do not have papers are rejected after their claims are assessed. The point being, that the pretenders arrive with papers in indonesia, but then destroy them so that they can assume identities of refugees. I do not think we should be rewarding such fraud.

While Johnny made a pigs breakfast of the whole Tampa thing (for too many reasons to list here), I generally agree with the policy of not allowing Indonesian boat people in.

Australia either needs to change its appeals laws (virtually no other country has an appeals system for immigration) or should have a UNHCR processing centre in australian waters.

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yes this subject is very touchy but my personel view on the whole thing is, at least have good look at all the individuals on the boat and if they A:are genuine refugies to whom going home would mean death than let them in. B:if they Have skills let them in you only have too look at things such as the snowy mountains scheme in n.s.w without immergrints that could never have been achieved and how many of us enjoy going out for thia or italian meals, without them you would still be eating bangers and mash.C: money and i mean enough to be able support themselves and maybe start up buissness this would in turn create jobs for others already here. for those that have no genuine need to be here other than looking for a better life than bring out the navy to shoo them away and tell the rest of the world to get fucked. I read a very funny(but very true) cartoon the other day, it was a snake tales one. it went like this. abborigine in a tree with binoculars, kangaroo says "what are you doing" black fella says "looking for boat people" kangaroo says "how long has this been going on" black fellow says "oh about two hundred years" rings true eh. besides all this, do any off us really believe we would even had heard of the tampa if an election was,nt on the horizon, answer NO it was all just a political crock of shit by a very scared liitle fuck called jhonny. yes i agree rev controlled migration is very impotant in a small country like ours and by small i mean most of it can not support too many ppl but you can,t blame someone for trying when they have a gun too thier head. as far as most of them comming in and than starting thier own little societies with thier own traditions than fine as long as they do not break any of our laws(well the important ones anyway wink.gifthan that will just add too our cultural diversity but if they wish too impose unrealistic traditions IE:female circumsision or such, or just plain make a [email protected]#t of themselves than they forfit any right too stay.

my two cents shroomy

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Heh heh this thing is so embarassing, all over the international news. I saw a thing on CNN last night where Alexander Downer used the word "suffer" like 3 times when justifying the decision to knock them back. Ie, "they can just suffer"... supposedly he was referring to "left wing extremists" who criticise them but the implication was that the Australian people don't give a damn about the well-being of other people in the world. Not in the interests of the Australian people, says podgy-boy Alex.

It really shits me that countries like Australia and especially the U.S. and UK (which both have their own immigration issues in the news at the moment) work to maintain inequality and injustice in the world by keeping all the scum in their "own" countries, where they are firmly controlled by international exchange rates and business practices. Why do we have to keep immigration down? To preserve our better-than-average standard of living. To keep the wealth to ourselves. How nice.

The first world can't exploit the third world if there is only one world.

After reading the other responses I can't resist being really cheesy and asking you to read these lyrics. Hey at least it's not Elton John! Actually I think these lyrics cut to the core of the issues we face for the next 50 years (and have faced already for 50).

Imagine there's no heaven,

It's easy if you try,

No hell below us,

Above us only sky,

Imagine all the people

living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,

It isn't hard to do,

Nothing to kill or die for,

No religion too,

Imagine all the people

living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,

I wonder if you can,

No need for greed or hunger,

A brotherhood of man,

Imagine all the people

Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer,

but I'm not the only one,

I hope some day you'll join us,

And the world will live as one.

I have at times felt the same way as others about the certain uncomfortable features of the enfolding of multicultural society in Australia... Of course there are going to be challenges as cultures get to know each other, just like in an interpersonal relationship. In fact you (and society as a whole) can only grow through challenging experiences, BlueFeather called this shit "cosmic fertiliser". Trying to shut everyone out because interacting is too painful is a crazy idea that won't persist under the pressure of modern transport and communications. Once people start really connecting with others from around the world they will see that they are real people like any other.

For example, put yourself in the position of one of those immigrants mentioned above, who perhaps used to live in a very poor country, struggling to make ends meet. You come to know that people -- who you are just as capable and hard-working as -- in countries such as Australia can live much more prosperously, perhaps even prosperously enough that a little money (which becomes a lot in the exchange) can be sent back home. By some titanic effort you make it to Australia, a totally foreign land where you must learn from scratch how society works, how the economy works, how best to make a living. You find other people from your country and find their company an infinite relief from the culture shock brought on by the strange land, strange inhabitants and thier strange language.

This is just people, living in the best way they have come up with. Must we deny them this opportunity because we don't like a few little challenges along the way??

It is crazy enough that most people reading this would find it difficult to just decide to relocate to say the U.S.A. .... immigration laws are just too tight, the world is divided up into little kingdoms and it's hard to stay anywhere except the one you were born in. So, that is restrictive enough. Now imagine that you were a poor substince farmer instead and you were denied the opportunity to live in a prosperous society simply due to the place of your birth.

What it boils down to is an uncomfortable concept: racism.

[This message has been edited by rkundalini (edited 05 September 2001).]

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Originally posted by rkundalini:

Why do we have to keep immigration down? To preserve our better-than-average standard of living. To keep the wealth to ourselves.

I personally think we should increase immigration. Skilled (without nationality preference) and refugee. However I don't agree with opening up to everyone.

I guess I wouldn't mind other cultures influencing and changing australian culture if this could eb done in tolerance. But the hard facts are, that cultures don't mix well and humans are opinionated. personally I would not like to live in a country where women have to wear a veil, people are imprisoned for one or the other religion, or blood feuds are order of the day. if I wanted that i would have moved to a different country. However, if we have unlimited immigration, then we may well have exactly that culture right here in australia. if all the people that want to come to australia had the same/similar cultural standards (regardless of race) then this could be avoided. Sure it is nice to eat falafels, but I also like to have the right to have sex before marriage without the girl getting stoned to death.

And if you don't think it can go that far, then look at the problems in Fiji for example.

And then there is all this pussyfooting around crime rates in ethnic areas and ethnic descriptors in australia. If they had a good look overseas they would know that the problem is real and that it is linked to ethnicity. Obviously people who grow up in such violet countries as Lebanon for example are more likely to use such violence.

RK, I agree that countries that thrive on the backs of developing countries should pay their dues. (But this should not apply to countries that did not grow rich that way.) However, mixing the cultures is not going to do either of them any good. Neither will be happy.

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Guest mandragora

l

Edited by mandragora

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Drag me back to earth why don't ja, Torsten? smile.gif What you have said is true but we can still hope that people will come into a different way of relating after many years of being so highly exposed to each-other (compared to centuries/millenia ago).

But I see your point, mixing everyone together might be untenable for now. If this is the case, though, it is the responsibility of the first world to be looking at why there is this big desire to migrate, and to work towards facilitating good standards of living (note that this does not mean through conventional economic development) in those countries so that people won't be so desperate for a fair go that they will travel half way round the world to have it.

Ok, I'm dreaming again. Someone pass the joint and let's all watch the show as the stupid monkeys kill each-other wink.gif...

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Originally posted by fruers:

...only to segragate into cultural "pockets" and continue the same way of life which brought peril to their homeland, doesn't make sense really.

Makes sense to me. I live in a neighbourhood that is predominantly of Italian origin, and in a suburb nearby a lot of the families are from England. People will generally flock together with other people of similar views/values/customs (this forum is a good example of that). This is even more understandable for immigrants that don't "look" like the majority of the people in their new country. There is safety in numbers, and safety is one of the main reasons they want to come here.

...who's running the major crime rings in australia?

Who knows? But you can bet your arse they're white.

Does anyone else fear that australia is being taken over from the inside?

Not as much as I fear bigotry and ignorance. Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.

What defense do we have against these people when -- not if -- they decide to start waging their "holy wars" here?

Yawn. Like the Catholics and Protestants have been doing here since they immigrated 200 years ago?

Did you bury your guns a couple of years ago wink.gif.

*Sigh*

My father is from new zealand and came here when there was free passage between the two countries, now, that free passage has stopped because people were taking up new zealand citizenship to get into australia and by doing so severed an important tie between the two countries. Sucks huh?

What sucks? That these New Zealanders can't just come here and force their customs on us and wage their holy wars in our country? After all, not all New Zealanders are white, you know?

[This message has been edited by Zu (edited 06 September 2001).]

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Whos running the major crime rings in australia mmmmmm ill have a crack at that

where too start doublya bush rrr kerry packer mmmm, news corp, fairfax and all the rest of the political puppets in australia. i wonder how many cia agents are in australia at the moment quite a few going by the amount of cocain available.I just do not buy the fact the australian authorities can not weed out the undesirebles it can not be that hard for fuck sake and as a result i believe instead of that they prefer to run and profit from the whole show with the war on drugs and such is just a cover(der)so who runs the crime rings look no further than your nearest politician.

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Guest reville
Originally posted by shroomy:

yes i agree rev controlled migration is very impotant in a small country like ours and by small i mean most of it can not support too many ppl but you can,t blame someone for trying when they have a gun too thier head. as far as most of them comming in and than starting thier own little societies with thier own traditions than fine as long as they do not break any of our laws but if they wish too impose unrealistic traditions IE:female circumsision or such, or just plain make a [email protected]#t of themselves than they forfit any right too stay.

my two cents shroomy

yes im with you there.

let me say that i think there is room for real refugees but as torsten has highlighted, most arent coming here becuase thay had a gun to their head.

As australians id say we have several values that we dont want diluted to the point where they disappear and to do this we need interaction between old australians and ne australians - its a two way social phenomenon of cultural evolution.

The point made about female circumcision is a good example.In an insulated society this could continue in secret- but in an itegrated society people would know that this is an unnacceptable practice in australia.

Once we reach the point as we have in some areas where the demographic distribution of people becomes unequal ie Immigrants have always formed centralised communities as they have arrived but the trends always show movement after a while out into the greater community, youve seen it with the italians, maltese and greeks and we are starting to see it with the asian communities that settled in the 70's

we know when weve exceeeded our rate or gone wrong with social policy when this doesnt happen. You see it on the news in the UK and also in Fiji at the moment, a situation i hope never happens here.

Its a fine line between leting in enough so that the nationality can retain sufficient momentum to make itself heard and retain and contribute to the rest of us the best of itself

but not so much that it becomes a self perpetuating isolated subculture.

People need a challenge to change. We need them to confront us to stop us becoming insular, and they need us to allow them to integrate.

The main problem is that there is no second chance to get rid of people once they come in

Other countries wont take them back so extreme caution should be the first response.

What we need is more cooperation from indonesia.Or we could send them to the US cos

didnt they put the Taliban in power?

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Guest reville

re: the crime rate

I doubt this has a a lot to do with migrants

but rather as torsten put it - ethnicity

and my point earlier about insular communities and poor integration.

Wherever you get suburbs without a good mix of people - where people say its a (insert nationality) suburb i bet youll find increased crime and social disturbance related to that culture.

Around here where i live you often encounter problems with domestic disputes amongst Aboriginal families and rowdy youth affect the rest of the commmnity and in geraldton it was pretty bad is some suburbs too, while in others i bet white collar and blue collar crime as rife.so yeah ist not just recent migrants.

Without english language skills and education people can no better destratify themselves in the australian community in a legal way.

'Black money' would have to be the most common form of this whatever its source and i bet we all do it to a limited degree but in some areas it can become a mainstay.

My solution apart from controlled Immigration

is education - lets say mandatory english language competency and some education equivalent to what we get in high school re australian history especially the late 20th century and our political system (how else are they going to make heard their special needs?). I could imagine that they could be compensated for this time - like work for the dole or like jury duty, i think its in all our interests.

Education in general is going to the dogs in australia.With up front fees becoming more comon i can see us losing that element of social destratification - the last 'Fair go"

that is a central ideology.

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Guest grauche
Originally posted by Torsten:

[bI personally think we should increase immigration. Skilled

- ...a small example of primitive accumulation

RK, I agree that countries that thrive on the backs of developing countries should pay their dues. (But this should not apply to countries that did not grow rich that way.) .[/b]

I couldn't agree more smile.gif

[This message has been edited by grauche (edited 06 September 2001).]

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i can agree with skilled immigrants coming here, but i think multiculturalism sucks. australia had a culture of its own before the parliament was 'white-anted' from the inside. to be 'many cultured' what the fuck is that? i can't see the point in ethnic ghettos and i don't think forced assimilation would be too good either. by way of example some knob stood up in nsw state parliament recently and proudly declared " i represent the chinese community" - fine, thinketh i, by all means fuck off to china and represent them to your hearts content.

how do we build a strong united nation if everyone is pulling in different directions? seems funny that the only people capable of being racist are white anglos.

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Originally posted by waterdragon:

by way of example some knob stood up in nsw state parliament recently and proudly declared " i represent the chinese community" - fine, thinketh i, by all means fuck off to china and represent them to your hearts content.

heeeeeeeee haaaaaaaaaa lmfao

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Guest reville

re waterdragon

IMHO if we talk like we should then by the third generation we have a lot more in common with each other than with our ancestors...

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Originally posted by rkundalini:

But I see your point, mixing everyone together might be untenable for now.

I'd even take it a step further and say that it is undesirable in many cases. On one hand we try to preserve tribes in South America and africa for their important individual customs. We even shield some communities from being corrupted by other cultures. Bhutan sees it's culture as its greatest asset and spends more money on border security to protect culture and customs (eg you're not allowed to even leave a camera in the country as it may cause corruption) than on any other border issue. After hundreds of years of imposing some cultures on other cultures we are now realising that this has created a great loss of individuality, languages, customs and identity. Over the last few decades there has been a lot more emphasis on cultural integrity and culture as an asset. Why should we support the dilution of this in either direction? By taking in non-refugee migrants, we are destabilising their culture as well as our own. I guess australia has a very fluid culture anyway, so it is not as drastic for us, but many other countries should consider this as one of the great problems of migration.

Along these lines australia has tried to regulate its intake of migrants to make it possible for them to integrate and shape the new australian society. By taking them in too quickly and in large numbers we run the risk of making it easier for them to congregate in pockets and rather than becoming australians and shaping the new australian culture, they are outsiders that shape their own community. I think that is what we are seeing with many of the current ethnic issues.

Also, not all migrants seek out others of their origin. I personally have little desire to spend time with germans just because they are german. I was probably put off by the fact that at school the german kids all hung together rather than integrating with the rest (whether ethnic or australian). If I wanted to hang with germans I'd go back to germany. But I think the deciding factor in this is language. I had little proboem with english and these days have a bit of an accent that most people can't pinpoint to any nationality. As a result I had no social problems and most of my friends are 'australian'. My mum and several other german's of my age I know never mananged to shake their accents and have fluidity problems. This impairs their social life and consequently they have a social circle made up with a good proportion of germans or at least other language impaired migrants. But the best example is my dad, who was also in this second group, but after a stroke lost even more of his english language capabilities. He now finds himself drawn almost exclusively to german speakers.

So as a result of these obsevations I think one of the most important aspects in migration policy should be language. It is really not too much to ask of anyone who wants to take such a big step as moving to another country and would save australia a lot of expenses too.

If this is the case, though, it is the responsibility of the first world to be looking at why there is this big desire to migrate, and to work towards facilitating good standards of living (note that this does not mean through conventional economic development) in those countries so that people won't be so desperate

I couldn't agree more. especially the point about not forcing our own economic systems onto them. It is interestign to note that most of the poor countries were once colonies. Now stripped off their wealth and often forced into single commodity markets, they struggle to survive. It is definitely the responsibility of those who profited to pay the real cost of their pillage.

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Torsten: agreed, although remember that mixing doesn't have to mean dilution (ie multiculturalism vs integration). My ideal would be that there would be equality between all places in the world, so that, whilst every place would be different, there would be no great rush of people wanting to move away from their place due to it sucking. Then we wouldn't even need to discuss this issue, since the number of people wanting to migrate would be low. (Dream dream dream)

I agree with Torsten that cultural identity can be a good thing. But don't forget that one can still maintain identity with a culture that is changing, if it doesn't change too quickly. I think that the de-socialisation of people due to television and consumerism is the direct cause of people in western homogeneous culture feeling alienated, alone, depressed. It is not the homogeneity that is the problem, it is the soullessness. So I think that western culture has very much to gain from multiculturalism. I also see your point about the need for caution though in less "fluid" cultures.

Waterdragon, we do have an "Australian culture", I agree. But it is a culture of immigrants! Unless you're sitting there chewing pituri and banging on your clap sticks, I doubt you practice authenthic Australian culture. White Australian culture is a hodgepodge of European influences. It would never have come about without immigration.Do you "represent the Anglo community"? Fine, then by all means fuck off back to England and represent Anglos to your hearts content. (I don't really mean this by the way, I am just turning your language around on you so you can see what you're actually saying.)

If you can't see the point in "ethnic ghettos" maybe you should go live in a foreign country and see how lonely you get, how ungrounding and disorienting it is to be immersed in an alien culture and language. Forming ex-pat communities is a psychological survival mechanism.

Your final question, "how do we build a strong united nation if everyone is pulling in different directions?" is, I have to say, a tad scary. To want everyone to have the same opinions, the same ideas about the way things should go, smacks of totalitarianism. People are only pulling in opposite directions if they are still stuck in this neanderthal "us vs them" paradigm of intercultural relations. If they all pulled in the direction of the greater good then there would be no conflict...

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Guest fruers

Originally posted by Zu:

Makes sense to me. I live in a neighbourhood that is predominantly of Italian origin, and in a suburb nearby a lot of the families are from England. People will generally flock together with other people of similar views/values/customs (this forum is a good example of that). This is even more understandable for immigrants that don't "look" like the majority of the people in their new country. There is safety in numbers, and safety is one of the main reasons they want to come here.

My point is that eventually the wheel is going to turn round full circle and logic says that they'll end up back in a similar situation.

Who knows? But you can bet your arse they're white.

Not as much as I fear bigotry and ignorance. Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.

Why put the focus on "black or white" and patriotism, perhaps that's your own projection? My comment had nothing to do with patriotism, patriotism is about socialistic values and i have no desire to support any socialistic values of australia. The majority of these people have no environmntal respect for australia, neither do some australians, but the percentage is much higher among immigrants (especially from asia and the middle east), that's not a racist comment it's a fact and the truth comes before any label that you'd like to stick on me. The proof is in the pudding, go look at the state of places that are frequented by the aforementioned people.

Yawn. Like the Catholics and Protestants have been doing here since they immigrated 200 years ago?

What a pathetic comparison.

*Sigh*

*cough* sarcasm *cough*

What sucks? That these New Zealanders can't just come here and force their customs on us and wage their holy wars in our country? After all, not all New Zealanders are white, you know?

No, that an important tie between two neighbouring countries was severed because of the capatilistic nature of the people that were coming through that channel.

Once again you're putting the focus on black and white, what's with that? Are you purposefully trying to attack me from that angle, like i'm a white supremist or something. It seems that you're the one that's hung up on the subject.

[This message has been edited by fruers (edited 07 September 2001).]

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Originally posted by fruers:

My point is that eventually the wheel is going to turn round full circle and logic says that they'll end up back in a similar situation.

Logic may dictate that a wheel goes round. But it doesn't dictate that your analogy is correct. Therefore you can't claim that you arrived at that conclusion using logic correctly.

Why put the focus on "black or white" and patriotism, perhaps that's your own projection?

I didn't mention black at all. You infered that the Lebanese and Vietnamese were running the major crime rings in Australia. I disagree. Some may be running crime rings but not the major ones.

My comment had nothing to do with patriotism...

You asked if others feared Australia was being taken over from the inside, and implied we sould take up arms *when* they start waging their holy wars. Sounds to me like the usual Us against Them crap that One Nation spurt.

What a pathetic comparison.

Why, because it isn't happening and therefore doesn't support your theory? They're still killing each other in Ireland but not here, why not?

Once again you're putting the focus on black and white, what's with that? Are you purposefully trying to attack me from that angle, like i'm a white supremist or something.

Again, I didn't mention black. You're the one making paranoid predictions and perpetuating tired stereotypes about immigrants from Asia and the Middle East.

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