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L-Tyrosine

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Originally posted by spiraleyes:

so taking tyrosine or same's brfore mdma,so you have plenty of S and D produced would benifit the experience ?

Tryptophan or 5OH tryptophan are more suitable instad of SAMe. But the theory is right. increase your neurotransmitter levels before the drug event and you will have a better and stronger effect from the drug. It means you can actually reduce the amount of drug. For MDMA serotonin precursors are most important.

what about comeing down,would it be also good to top up on tyrosine?

It is actually possible to come down from a single dose of MDMA, Speed, or similar substances with barely any negative effects or feelings. Coming down is when you run out of neurotransmitter reserves. So obviously, if you can top up th reserves in time it is possible to negate the comedown effects.

The ideal 'e' goes as follows:

predose with 5OH tryptophan for 3 days before taking the drug.

take a single dose (125mg), and not more.

as soon as you have the first wave of coming off the peak, take some 5OHtryptophan.

then keep taking it every time you get a down wave.

if you get grumpy, tired or irritable, then take a 500mg tyrosine.

keep doing this until you're down.

eat as soon as you can after a trip.

this is not the ideal way, as ideally you want to take the supplement BEFORE you feel the downwave. after doing it the above way a few times you will get the timing right for your personal needs.

make sure to take soem tyrosine the next 2 days n the morning, and for 3-6 days plenty of tryptophan or 5OHtryptophan just on going to sleep. I did that for years without getting 'e' blues, depression or any other noticable negative effect from 'mdma'.

The other thing to take into account is that many 'e's are not MDMA. The above will not work for PMA, 2CB, Speed or any of the other crap that finds it way into pills these days. It will however work for MDA.

besides sleep what increases seretonin?

the precursors, tryptophan and 5OH tryptophan.

yeh and effects of mushrooms and dmt-moclobemide on S and D ?

both seem to influence serotonin positively, especially dmt/ayahuasca. Dont' think there is much dopamine involvement.

what is the best balance of S and D?

more of which?

Both should be high. Serotonin is bliss, dopamine is euphoria. Together they are ecstacy.

what do S and D actually do?

they are neurotransmitters involved in mood and many other functons. there is plenty about them on this forum - quite recent too. do a search.

could i try her on l-tyrosine or something,she will trust me with anything,what shall i do,how can i help?

this is not a one line recommendation type issue. you would need to establish which is low, S or D. then you can supplement. If you do a search you will find a lot of info on this topic.

what substances if any have a negative effect on someone taking anti depressants?

what should be avoided?

im thinking mainly:

lsd,shrooms,mdma,dmt-moclobemide,mescaline...

depends entirely on the antidepressant. there are many different types and some can be dangerous and others harmless.

he has dreamt he has smoked pot,salvia 5,nos,drank alcohol.

but what about shrooms,dmt,mdma,lsd are these likely to have any different effects?

he really needs to talk to his GP about this.

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Another thing which can assist with the recovery process is to eat sensibly on the ensuing day(s).

Vitamin/ amino acid supplementation reduces damage not only by supplying a source for the neurotransmitters you depleted, but by reducing mental stresses usually associated with comedowns. Mental and emotional stresses take a physical toll too.

If you were...ahem...indulgent the night(s) before its a fair bet you haven't been eating well, if at all. By gently reintroducing food to your system you don't overload the target organs ( gut, liver etc ) with more work than they already have.

When you're ready to eat, choose something light. Fruit is good, apples and pears assist with digestion I believe. 20 minutes or so later, have some toast with a healthy-ish topping such as honey and freshly grated ginger. Accompany it with a glass of lightly warmed water with lemon juice added.

Next meal go easy too. Might want to wait an hour or two. My preference is a miso- based recovery soup ( in an ideal world croissants and bagels would be a health food and miso and tempeh a cardiovscular risk but I make an exception in this case ). The soup can be made straight into a bowl, pouring boiling water onto the other ingredients and let sit til the noodles soften.

Miso recovery soup:

Miso to taste

Cellophane noodles

Grated ginger

Chopped garlic

Sliced mushrooms

Chopped shallots

A bit of dried seaweed ( nori ) cut into thin strips

Any other veggies.

Pour boiling water over the lot and let sit til the noodles soften.

The beauty of this is that it is quickly and simply prepared at a time when you're prolly not feeling like extensive food preparation rituals wink.gif but it provides you with enough energy and readily absorbed nutrients to keep the recovery process going along nicely. Nori is great for trace elements too.

Next meal try for smoked salmon something. After this it easy to revert back to your usual food routine.

Important thig to consider.

Avoid heavy, or fatty foods. They place an extra strain on your liver especially. As this is where most of the detoxifiction takes place you want to be as kind to it as possible

Avoid caffeine for as long as you can (sob) as it plays hell with your liver. Warmed water with a dash of lemon juice is a better idea as it helps to flush the kidneys

Don't overeat. It is sometimes tempting to 'stock up' on food once your body realises it hasn't been fed a while, but gutsing hot chips on the way home is mistake and can lead to irritability b/c of liver overload

This may not be suitable for everyone. Some of the food types listed may not suit some ppl ( hi Torsten wink.gif ). Revise as appropriate

Plan ahead or stock up. If you're prone to indulgence make sure you have amino acids and appropriate food items at the ready.

Consider those around you. Share your stuff/ recovery processes with the ppl you went out with the night before. Having calm, happpy ppl around you also reduces yr stress levels, and its * really* boring being the only relaxed person in a room full of tense angstful jittering units

Personally I try to carry a much edited recovery kit whenever I go out. After a while it gets easy to spot the ppl freaking out over nothing but a comedown they should have anticipated. Selective application of precursors etc to them makes your night out easier as well, whether you indulge or not.

Surprisingly many ppl don't ever associate the precursors etc with their sudden

lightening of mood, no matter how often you feed them tryptophan etc. It can get expensive eternally passing out recovery pills to the useless types but its a cost/ benefit analysis when you find yourself stuck with their recurring and frequently uneccessary angst.

Happily a significant ( but not large IMO ) portion of ppl you pass this stuff onto take a real interest in the topic once they experience the physical and mental benefits. Its rarely any use explaining the theory behind this without providing at least a sample of the advantages. Largesse isn't wasted on this lot at all, and you can point them in the direction of further information on the topic knowing they'll go to the trouble of seeking further information to help themselves

It all sounds boring, ritualistic and expensive, particularly after a night out. But once you experience the benefits of carefully planned recovery,and understand the relevance of it to other aspects of your life ( particularly in the longer term ), planning comedowns becomes an integral and easy part of the overall experience. *Much* simpler than angst smile.gif

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(...)posted by torsten.

...The ideal 'e' goes as follows:

predose with 5OH tryptophan for 3 days before taking the drug.

a standard dose?

so tyrosine is not necesary until come down?

what is the differende between tryptophan and 5OH?

...take a single dose (125mg), and not more.

as soon as you have the first wave of coming off the peak, take some 5OHtryptophan.

then keep taking it every time you get a down wave.

125mg each wave?

...if you get grumpy, tired or irritable, then take a 500mg tyrosine.

keep doing this until you're down.

keep taking 500mg??

can you OD on trytophan-tyrosine?

what makes you grind your jaw on different substances?

ive been taking spirulina for a week or so now,i like the idea of this being a whole food.

it seems to be packed pontently with alot of things,and assimilated by the body quickly and easily.

lots of nutrition,less digestion stress.

ill post what effects it has in a while,but so far so good.

are there different types of seaweed (nori)?

what are the benifits?

china town the go?

thank you for all the help smile.gif

Edited by spiraleyes

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i was taking spirulina pro for awhile

helped with digestion and stuff

also found it to be a little stimulating

very subtle energy boost

foe a fwe days while on it i would eat 2

leaves of ginko bilboa each morning as

we had a tree growing at my w ork smile.gif

didn't do it for long but i found themto

work very well together

has anyone any more info on spirulina?

thanx

aaron

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"had a ginko tree growing at your work."

are they common?

id love to try fresh leaves.

what info do you want on spirulina?

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i don't know if they're common

i was told that it was a male tree

which don't produce fruit/seed

they taste alright

i'd like to grow a female so i can

try the fruit

just basic info on spirulina

like what are it's uses, etc.

but more detail than u get from your

local health food shop

thanx

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um i thought tryptophan has been banned since 89 and 5htp isn't available in australia yet? Can you buy them??

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Originally posted by spiraleyes:

a standard dose?

don't actually know, cos I always use tryptophan. 5OH is much more efficient and easier to use. don't know dosages though.

so tyrosine is not necesary until come down?

not unless you are a low dopamine type anyway. in that case you shouldn't be taking 'e' anyway.

what is the differende between tryptophan and 5OH?

only about 10% tryptophan is available for making serotonin, wehreas 100% of 5OH is available as there are no other pathways.

125mg each wave?

read it again. the dose of 125mg refers to the MDMA. the dose of 5OH depends on your response to it.

keep taking 500mg??

yes, it comes in 500mg tabs and this seems to be a good hourly supplement when coming down.

can you OD on trytophan-tyrosine?

no, not really. You certainly can't take too much tryptophan. not sure about 5OH, but I presume the only sideeffect would be sleepiness and bliss. excessive tyrosine can make you overstimulated. your gut will just not absorb what it doesn't need.

what makes you grind your jaw on different substances?

adrenaline. all stimulants do this.

is this perfect'e'recipe also good for other substances ie lsd,psilocybin,dmt,mescaline?

or is there a different plan?

there is a different plan for every drug, if the drug acts on different neurotransmitters. if a drug releases adrenaline & dopamine, then you need to take tyrosine (and possibly phenylalanine) to come down. The tryptamines don't usually need supplementation. Although, I noticed that ayahuasca gets a little flat after a couple of hours and can be made more colourful and vivid by supplementing tryptophan (or 5OH).

ive been taking spirulina for a week or so now,i like the idea of this being a whole food.

It is not. It is a complete supplement. The difference is substantial.

it seems to be packed pontently with alot of things,and assimilated by the body quickly and easily.

This applies mostly to minerals though.

are there different types of seaweed (nori)?

what are the benifits?

china town the go?

all seaweeds have very different nutrient levels. it's like comparing carrots and lettuce. they balance the minerals well, but don't rely on them for aminoacids.

One of the best recovery foods is milk. any milk. for vegans even soymilk will be sufficient. tyhe added benefit of soy is that it is high in phenylalanine, which is a precursor for adrenaline and can also be converted to dopamine. Strawberry SoGood used to be one of my fave rave foods - ie something I can actually consume while 'up there'.

One bit I forgot about the recovery is that you will need minerals. These are easiest and chepest supplied by using celtic salt. Such supplementation is essential if you have been dancing a lot. It also prevents the Anna Wood syndrome by reducing the osmotic pressure on the brain. It is also a sure fix for 'eccy back'.

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Originally posted by Brett:

um i thought tryptophan has been banned since 89

It is available on prescription if you can find an openminded doctor. It is also available in 100mg caps in many heathfood stores.

5htp isn't available in australia yet?

you can mailorder them from overseas.

I am trying to put together a one-shot ecstacy recovery kit over the next few months, which will have 5OH in it. patience.

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I won't be selling it at all. I am just involved in putting it together and it will be sold by someone with TGA permits.

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Originally posted by Torsten:

don't actually know, cos I always use tryptophan. 5OH is much more efficient and easier to use. don't know dosages though.

how can i get 5oh?

why do you need a prescription if you can purchase trytophan from health food stores,?amounts?

ive been taking spirulina for a week or so now,i like the idea of this being a whole food.

It is not. It is a complete supplement. The difference is substantial.

they told me this at the health food shop.

whats the differende and what are your thoughts on spirulina?

One of the best recovery foods is milk. any milk. for vegans even soymilk will be sufficient. tyhe added benefit of soy is that it is high in phenylalanine, which is a precursor for adrenaline and can also be converted to dopamine. Strawberry SoGood used to be one of my fave rave foods - ie something I can actually consume while 'up there'.

when i drink soymilk it makes me feel a bit sick and i get pains in my gut,any idea why?

[This message has been edited by spiraleyes (edited 02 September 2001).]

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Originally posted by spiraleyes:

why do you need a prescription if you can purchase trytophan from health food stores,?amounts?

healthfood stores can only sell 100mg tabs. 500mg is the minimum you will need. so I guess if you don't mind popping 5 or ten caps, then you won't need a script.

they told me this at the health food shop.

whats the differende and what are your thoughts on spirulina?

yeah, the naturopath at the healthfoodshop also told me that tyrosine increases serotonin levels and actually became quite rude about it. The educational standards of naturopaths are really low generally. I am studying naturopathy right now and I am appaled at the crap they have to learn, wasting time where they could learn relevant stuff. Spirulina will not sustain you. A complete food is something that you can live on. A complete supplement is something that will balance everything that you're likely to be lacking due to poor diet.

when i drink soymilk it makes me feel a bit sick and i get pains in my gut,any idea why?

high protein content causes bloating (on empty stomach especially). Combine it with some carbohydrates and it won't happen. Ot take a herbal or chemical anti gas preparation.

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At ~60 mg/kg (about 4g for my weight) 5HTP can cause tremors, hyperventilation, raised heart rate, salivation, crying, apparent blindness. Lower doses with SSRIs could cause death.

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The educational standards of naturopaths are really low generally.

i've noticed this too when i've talked to some. I went into a herb shop a while ago and asked if they had any brahmi and the lady brought over gotu kola and told me it was brahmi. when i told her what it was and that they are too different things she told me that a naturopath who works at the shop had told her it was brahmi and basically that he was right and i was wrong.

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from a website:

There is some confusion involved in assigning the common name "brahmi" to both Bacopa monniera and Centella asiatica (Gotu kola). In India, Bacopa monniera is known as "brahmi". Early literature also used the name "brahmi to refer to Centella asiatica (Gotu kola). However in ancient Sanskrit literature the name "jala-brahmi" or water-brahmi refers to Bacopa monniera. In the United States, "brahmi" can refer to either Bacopa monniera or Centella asiatic. The labels of commercial products should include the scientific name, and thus alleviate any confusion for the consumer.

gotu kola also known in sanskrit as mandukaparni (or indian pennywort)

adam.

[This message has been edited by coin (edited 03 September 2001).]

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you might be able to tell from a database such as this -

Dr. Duke's

Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Databases

however, you need to keep in mind the bioavailability of food components..ie, with regard to amino acids, (such as mentioned, phenylalanine, tyrosine, tryptophan, etc) they compete for transport to the brain...

i would like for some knowledgable person to fill me in on useful ratios (ie phen vs tryp) for effective uptake of desired aminos..and other absorption factors.

adam.

[This message has been edited by coin (edited 04 September 2001).]

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Originally posted by coin:

i would like for some knowledgable person to fill me in on useful ratios (ie phen vs tryp) for effective uptake of desired aminos..and other absorption factors.

don't worry about increasing your phenyl intake, unless you're a speed junkie. It is one of the most common and easily absorbed amino acids.

tryptophan uses the same pathway (but last in a line of 5), is much less common and is only used to a maximum of 10% for serotonin production.

tyrosine is also quite common and also easily absorbed, but for some reason we just don't have enough dopamine triggers to induce production.

There are no ratios of taking these supplements, as the ratio depends on what you need and what you have in excess. It's a matter of recognising what you're lacking and how to change it.

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torsten,

i was talking about food rather than supplements.. eating high tryptophan foods, for example...tryptophan, it was my understanding, will not cross the BBB if it has to compete with a high level of other aminos such as phenylalanine...

mood foods..my point was that it is not sufficient to find foods that are high in tryptophan if they are also high in these competing aminos...

what proportions are necessary to ensure high tryptophan uptake?

also in a previous post you mentioned that tyrosine should be taken with plenty of food (avoiding up&downs-dips)..if, for instance, i took it with a big bowl of pasta (ie, carbs), how much influence does the insulin effect have upon uptake of the tyrosine supp?

[This message has been edited by coin (edited 05 September 2001).]

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don't worry about increasing your phenyl intake, unless you're a speed junkie. It is one of the most common and easily absorbed amino acids.

My ex is into speed in a big way and she always has extremely bad comedowns. Will taking a phenyl supplement help with the comedown? I have given her various other vitamins and supplements and they seem to help quite a bit but I think there's definately room for more.

On the topic of tyrosine. I have some 1000mg tyrosine tablets. Should I avoid taking these until my Serotonin levels are back up or is it safe enough to have high dopamine with low serotonin.

cheers Dr Tort smile.gif

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Tryptophan doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, phenylalanine (sp?) is the only EAA that crosses the blood brain barrier

-bumpy

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I went to the doctor, wanting some Temazepam or Clonazepam tablets.

I said I suffered from insomnia and anxiety, and she perscribed me Mianserin Tablets.

I looked them up on the net and they are said to increase serotonin levels.

I don't know what to believe now.

Would they be useful as MAOIs or as something to ease comedowns?

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Originally posted by coin:

i was talking about food rather than supplements.. eating high tryptophan foods, for example...tryptophan, it was my understanding, will not cross the BBB if it has to compete with a high level of other aminos such as phenylalanine...

Tryptophan actually uses the same absorption pathway (in the gut, not the brain) as 4 other amino acids. The idea is to eat low protein food that has high tryptophan content. Exception seems to be salmon, which is high in protein, but one of the best tryptophan sources..

also in a previous post you mentioned that tyrosine should be taken with plenty of food (avoiding up&downs-dips)..if, for instance, i took it with a big bowl of pasta (ie, carbs), how much influence does the insulin effect have upon uptake of the tyrosine supp?

as you're suppose to take it in the morning, it is usually taken with a high carb breakfast. I don't think it makes much difference, except that if the food is too heavy you feel a bit awkward as you want to be active, but your tummy doesn't agree.

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Originally posted by Chemical Shaman:

My ex is into speed in a big way and she always has extremely bad comedowns. Will taking a phenyl supplement help with the comedown?

yes, it will also drastically reduce her consumption, as the amount she takes will be come much more efficient. speed also releases dopamine, so tyrosine should also be given.

On the topic of tyrosine. I have some 1000mg tyrosine tablets. Should I avoid taking these until my Serotonin levels are back up or is it safe enough to have high dopamine with low serotonin.

generally I would say, yes, wait till the serotonin is up. however, from what I know about you I presume your depression is mostly dopamine related anyway (sex 'addiction' is a real good indicator wink.gif) and your serotonin is probably not too bad.

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doesn't tryptophan occur as part of a protein complex, but in different proportions to other aminos depending on food? (ie, isn't free) or, another way - couldn't you eat high protein foods that have a high tryptophan profile but also balance it with carbs?

is this why milk is said to be good to for beckoning sleep - because of the high carbs (lactose, and stir in some honey)? (why the insistence on warm milk tho? ..what are the effects of heat on these aminos? could i bake tryptophan cookies?) or eating a banana alone..high levels of sucrose & fructose

insulin (release for carbs) is supposed to lower blood levels of all aminos except tryptophan..

tyro & phen & tryp all occuring, but the former 2 contributing to energised mood (->dopamine, noradrenalin, adrenalin)...eating with carbohydrates will cause insulin to allow better uptake of the tryptophan, calming the mind..

if the carbs be complex with high fibre you'll get a nice steady flow..fibre slows down absorption, insulin is released more slowly, serotonin created gradually..

be they simple & no fibre you get the spike and dip, sleepiness..

tryptophan being the least available dietary amino, probably because from an evolutionary perspective, it's better to be aggressive / self-defensive against predators, than to become the Bodhisattva of compassion with a cheesy grin.

also..

have you any comment on the phenomenon of (chronic release of) stress hormones causing the conversion of l-tryptophan (by pyrrolase) into liver toxic chemicals?

coin

[This message has been edited by coin (edited 06 September 2001).]

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