Obtrusion v Madness

[Thelema]

I was wondering if anyone out there could help me think through the following problem:

What is the difference between having unwanted obtrusive thoughts and having "voices in your head"?

Do "voices in the head" ala schiz. always manifest themselves as presenting another identity, or can schizophrenic voices be recognized as actually your own 'voice', albeit unwilled and obtrusive?

The reason I am asking is that I suffer horrendously from Obtrusive Thoughts, which I recognise as my own interior 'voice' rather than as from some other entity (although does that make sense? - i could say to myself next time it happened "that came from my shadow-self" - thereby making it true that it was NOT my own interior voice).

I have been wondering whether I am suffering schizotypal behaviour or whether what is happening to me is "normal" (ie. within a not-too-extreme part of a normal curve). Discussions with others have revealed that many if not all people suffer from the occasional obtrusive thought at times but can dismiss it.

When should obtrusive thoughts be addressed as a problem that needs fixing, and is my problem schizotypal?

The nature of my obtrusive thoughts is often sexually repugnant and criminal, never take the form of "commands" but rather "comments". I remember a quote from American Psycho where Patrick quotes Ed Kein(?), summer-of-sam serial killer:

"When I see a beautiful girl walking down the street, one half of me appreciates her beauty, while the other half wonders how good her head would look on a stake."

This type of shit is a daily affair for me. Help!

[Auxin]

The DSM-IV diagnosis of schizophrenia requires one to have a serious, long lasting decline in ability to work, care for oneself, and connect socially with others, and the person must manifest at least two of the following symptoms: delusions, hallucinations (voices are most common), disorganized speech, grosly disorganized or catatonic behavior, and negative symptoms (absence or reduction in expected behaviors, thoughts, feelings, or drives. Like reduction of emotional response, loss of pleasure or hunger, slowing of bodily movements, etc.)

It sounds like you have vividly imagined speech (very common) while a schizophrenic person would experience the sounds as truly audible as a phenomenon seperate from their own thoughts. Sometimes it helps to humm or count to yourself to stop voices a la schizo.

If it is just vividly imagined speech, but its telling you to do bad things its not very good- but not something you'd get sent to a hospital for. Its probably related to unresolved psychological issues, stress, or MABY a slight neurochemical imbalance (those are largely treatable with meds now adays, but make sure the docs arent too quick to prescribe, because its probably psychological or stress and taking unneeded meds isnt very good).

First thing I'd try is getting some relaxing time to yourself each day without the TV (perhaps gardening, sitting in a park, or whatever is relaxing to you), try some meditation (dont focus on technique, focus on relaxing and opening your mind), and look for and try to correct sources of stress. Chances are pretty good you can rid yourself of the problem without getting professionals involved.

[ 27. February 2003, 17:56: Message edited by: Auxin ]

[coin]

this is fully going to be a ramble, so forgive me in advance

just speaking of my own experience here

i know how annoying that is..

it seems for me at least, the more you meditate, and can centre yourself in meditation, the better your ability to accept things and the less need to pass judgement.

there's definitely a split in the mind in what you're talking about (for me anyway.. i'll keep saying that) .. those comments or thoughts come up from some part, and another part judges the thoughts, or is shocked, or disgusted and perhaps goes along with the identification...

the more you react, the more you deepen the split, seeming to feed both polarities, creating opposing parts, heightening the potential energy of each part, making it harder and harder to be okay with what's going on.. one half becomes increasingly 'disobedient' or recalcitrant, the other becomes increasingly righteous and judgmental, and fighting it, or just shocked/freaked out.

once this split is deep enough, you have more serious schizoid behaviour..

awareness meditation may help to relinquish identification with these thoughts, both ways, which you need to understand, are just the manifestation of the mind's habits..it's the mind's function to generate thoughts through fluctuation, they are rarely 'willed', though this is often not noticed. you are not your brain, you are not your thoughts

i had this problem since i was about seven years old..it was at its worst when i'd go to church with my family..the priest would be going "christ almighty" and my mind would be going "fuck you jesus", lots of stuff like that, seemingly automatically, and seemingly just to piss me off..i could never understand it, cos 'I' don't even speak that way....few of these sort of thoughts bug me now, and as such they diffuse really quickly. the obtrusive thoughts can still be frequent & distracting at times.

did any of that make sense?

[ 27. February 2003, 19:30: Message edited by: coin ]

[somnif]

Thelma,

Sort of based of your comments in the "Alcohol

Alternatives" thread and observations I have made

for my own experience:

1. Abruptly stopping drinking after doing it

fairly hard for a week or more certainly increases

the "head noise" along with vivid black and white

dreams etc. Sort of the mini DTs I guess.

2. B-12 deficiency for whatever reason (N2O;

pernacious(sp?) anemia; less than great diet)

seems to bring along thoughts similar to what

you have mentioned here.

Injectable (IM though SC works well also)

Neo-Cyanocobalamin is available OTC at chemists

at least here in Victoria.

3. Abruptly stopping all sorts of substances

include Caffiene has thrown me into similar states.

Of course the chances are that this is not

applicable to you at all - it might give you

some clues however.

[ 27. February 2003, 20:05: Message edited by: somnif ]

[Thelema]

Thanks guys:

1) its definitely not stress, i live a life of complete passivity. It could be a LACK of stress tho'

2)could be a vitamin thing, thanks for that suggestion, ill get some b12 today, although i usually take a multivit everyday,so i dunno about that. I should be geting enough b12 from that. But since I drink fairly heavily and eat poorly its a definite chance.

3)obviously drinking doesnt help the situation, i'll acknowledge that.

4)thanks for the meditation suggestion, i should really take that up again. I used to do nothingness meditation intensely a while ago, but stopped once i had a satori.

5)could be unresolved psychological issues, but i doubt it. I dont really have neuroses about anything.

6)in response to COIN, i used to experiment with assimilating my shadow, and actively encourage it to come out and play. So it seems that now I cant get rid of it. I try not to react as much as possible nowadays, but constantly recurring themes in the voices wear one down after a while.

7)AUXIN, thanks for the dsm4 info - when you mention that schiz would hear as "truly audible as a phenomenon seperate from their own thoughts" in comparison to "vividly imagined [and obtrusive]speech", could you please elaborate on this distinction for me? This is an area of confusion for me.

Thanks for all the help guys! Ill get back to you!

[Auxin]

'Truly audible as a phenomenon seperate from their own thoughts' would sound just the same as hearing someone talking to you. It sounds completely real, it doesnt seem to be following what is going on in your head, and you have no control over the progression of the talking.

'Vividly imagined speech' is your own thoughts that 'sound' fairly real, but you cant technically hear it- it stays in your head, and it does tend to follow your thoughts even if it branches off to other stuff (just like people day-dream or have their mind wander with standard thoughts, it can happen with vividly imagined speech thoughts).

[nabraxas]

auxin is right. the voices heard by shizophrenics are hallucinations- in the true sense ov that word, ie- they believe them to be 100% real.

you are obviously aware that the voice is your own. however, as someone mentioned, the more you split your personality the worse it becomes.

just because you live a relaxed life doesn't mean you are not stressed- you even say that the voices are stressing you, & binge drinking/poor diet are more stresses on the body.

IMHO(& a few psychs) the 'cause' or trigger for latent schizophrenia(especially type 2) to develop is stress(physical & mental).

if i were you i would see a doctor but, as auxin said, make sure you get the treatment you want & not just "here take these, come back in a month".

i would also look for a meditation teacher/class, so as to ensure the meditation was done properly & i wasn't distracted, as i feel i might be trying to meditate alone w/the voices.

hope that is some help to you.

also could you say what(if any) effect mariajuana(if you use it) has on your state ov mind? please.

[woof woof woof]

Once when I was little and home alone, I heard someone call my name. A friendly familiar voice, but not one of someone I knew i later realized. I did not make much of it then.

To this day I believe this to be real! I am fully aware of how voices can be generated.

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i had this problem since i was about seven years old..it was at its worst when i'd go to church with my family..the priest would be going "christ almighty" and my mind would be going "fuck you jesus", lots of stuff like that, seemingly automatically, and seemingly just to piss me off..i could never understand it, cos 'I' don't even speak that way....few of these sort of thoughts bug me now, and as such they diffuse really quickly. the obtrusive thoughts can still be frequent & distracting at times.

I think this is just a classic rebelious mind, which was not fully in touch with the moment. probably cause did not feel like being there and did not grasp what was really going in church..

I even think that this is because a bigger part of you knew that your perception of the world would be different from the one they were trying to impose on you in church. (or something like that at least)

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I think the voices are not that bad if you know hot to interpet them.

Hallucinations are a reflection of our emotions. So they are real. Just like dreams.

Shamans work with hallucinations, Shizo's get worked over by hallucinations... thay is how it can roughly be discribed.

A good shaman, knows that the hallucinations are symbolical reflections of our emotions. Theyalso know that it important not to clean or better said rid themselves or other of the human form of hallucinations, since the energy fields (anorganic beings) they are reflected on are formless beings.

or at least something like that

[coin]

brian, re rebellious mind..yeah i spose i agree with that.. what i was trying to illustrate was that at the time i considered that whatever was generating those thought impressions, i did not consider a part of myself...ie, it certainly wasn't willed and would seem to arise spontaneously, and i'd try to block it out, which only made it more insistent.

as i mentioned, i still experience this at times when i'm being/trying to be loving/compassionate/intimate .. it feels like sabotage

also, i believe perhaps this is more common in people who are auditorially (somehow i think that's not a word) oriented.. eg, i'm very much into sounds & music...when i fall asleep i hear orchestrated music & blurry discarnate voices, etc

whereas others have more visually inclined hypnogogic phenomena

[infinite_monkey]

obtrusive thoughts are obsesive compulsive depending on intensity this is bad when it starts to affect your life then it IS OCD, the "voice" can be a sign of disacosiative dissorder (sorry for my bad spelling) the main thing is if it worries you in any shape or form consult a psychiatrist you would be surprised contrary to belief if you get a good one not just some one who is there for the money they do help not a psychotherapist i have found meditation makes my disassociation more intense this in its self is not bad but can lead to greater probs the reason i mention this is that i am a long time sufferer of OCD and disassociative dissorder. SO sometimes you need a little help by some one who can help you navigate

[nabraxas]

that would have to be the best answer you'll get.

[woof woof woof]

coin:

brian, re rebellious mind..yeah i spose i agree with that.. what i was trying to illustrate was that at the time i considered that whatever was generating those thought impressions, i did not consider a part of myself...ie, it certainly wasn't willed and would seem to arise spontaneously, and i'd try to block it out, which only made it more insistent.

as i mentioned, i still experience this at times when i'm being/trying to be loving/compassionate/intimate .. it feels like sabotage

also, i believe perhaps this is more common in people who are auditorially (somehow i think that's not a word) oriented.. eg, i'm very much into sounds & music...when i fall asleep i hear orchestrated music & blurry discarnate voices, etc

whereas others have more visually inclined hypnogogic phenomena

A greater force was holding you, keeping you down, when something in you subconsciously knows that there is much other important stuff that needs to be tackled....

hmmmm, some blind mind manipulating anger out there perhaps.... :D

[woof woof woof]

with some soul searching will eventually lead you to the source emanating those vibes, that trigger the voices......

I think that people that hear voices are people that have an open channel for subtle energies that affect the language area in the brain, but are either usually not aware of that or don't know how to work with it.

so they have to shift their brain stimmulation area....

'I once dreamt up my own archetypes/cacracters and let them ramble on and on (airhead-stokaboka-surferdudes)..... I eventually got tired of it guess. Reading magical stuff led me to think that way.

Now I only do that with the natural mystic flow...... it is a vibe "beyond the voice" that I tune in on. Natural mystic flow = the inner silence = pure clean and clear.

takes time to establish a good relationship.

Then one day you will sing;

"...but my head was made strong, by the hand of the almighty..... "

won't you help me sing... these songs of freedom, it's all i ever have... redemption song

emancipate youselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our own minds....

have no fear for atomic energy, cause none of that can stop the time....

"B O B !"

I R I E

[Auxin]

Hey, someone who likes good music

But can you identify this one:

Bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bidamucwingden binden binden binden enamoy namoy namoy...

"E E K !"

His music is drastically under appreciated here in the states, but I here he's pretty popular in your area.

[woof woof woof]

E E K a M O U S E ;)m e g a p o p u l a r round these parts.....

[ 06. March 2003, 06:47: Message edited by: brian ]

[nabraxas]

pretty popular in london back in the mid-late 80's- though i wouldn a picked the toon.

[Thelema]

The crux of the issue for me is this:

the status of the "reality" of the voices in my head.

what i imagine AUXIN to be saying is that schiz would apprehend the voices as being "exterior to themselves ie. being received through the ear from an external source,(ie as a whispering in the ear) whereas AUXIN juxtaposes this with the alternative; being "interior" apprehension of a voice, controlled or not, but definitely not apprehended as being received "auditorially". Do I understand you correctly?

In this case I do not know how to decide which is true for me, and I dont think it is so easy to decide. There are obviously borderline cases, such as reporting false sounds in auditory psychometric tests, for instance. In such cases the false sound is obviously a "product" of the brain yet it is heard as being emanated exterior to ones-self. Similarly it might happen in the reverse direction as well.

It seems to me a question of DECISION and ATTITUDE on my behalf as to whether I choose the "domain" of the voice to be exterior or interior, not so much as an actual DISCOVERABLE FACT about the voices themselves. Imagine if you had hyper-rich imagined speech, then what qualities would it have that really differed from external apprehension of speech? To me the question seems to come down to the idea of phenomenological "richness". And if my inner speech is as phenomenologically as "rich" as any exterior speech I experience, then it does not really help me at all in coming to a decision as to whether the domain is exterior or interior, for the distinction seems to become irrelevant.

Do you get what I'm saying?

So possibly if I deepened the divide, as was said above, I might increase the supposed 'autonomy' of the voice, so that it became less "mine". Which might result in it being scarier and more problematic, maybe precipitating schiz. Or I can choose to accomodate them, which I try to do as much as possible.

So what I need now is advice on how to "accomodate" these shadow elements without myself actually assimilating them into my personality. Is this possible? I don't WANT these things to become a part of my personality, they are criminal. But how do I go about initiating a "friendly relationship" with them, given that they probably arose in the first place through me inviting them out to play and through shamanic work? Can I use them to my ADVANTAGE????

So many questions, all replies appreciated.

[somnif]

This is somewhat out of my depth, but I remember

hearing a BBC World Service radio documentary where

it discussed treatment of people who had unwanted

voices in their heads.

The treatment being discussed was to actually

challenge the voice and in a sense show it's lack

of power eg. voice says do something bad to

yourself - person responds by challenging the voice

to perform the act itself.

Documentary noted that people who we taught to

recognise the lack of power of the voices they

were hearing lived normal lives.

[ 06. March 2003, 22:29: Message edited by: somnif ]

[Thelema]

Thanks somnif, Ive been trying this method and it really seems to work!

However, now my dreams seem to have taken on more of an evil quality, so now I have to learn how to do the same thing whilst dreaming, which means i must once again learn to lucid dream...ahh a long process.