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A480

5-htp + B6 -- ineffective and dangerous?

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What to make of this?

http://yarchive.net/med/5-htp.html

More or less states that 5-htp is decarboxylated in the liver into serotonin and hence never crosses the blood/brain barrier. The enzyme responsible supposedly uses B6 to do this, meaning that in supplements containing both, even more of the 5-htp is prematurely converted to serotonin, possibly resulting in dangerous blood levels of it:

How much does it take? Several hundred milligrams of 5-HTP

taken per day, if converted to serotonin, would result in a

urinary excretion of the serotonin metabolite 5-hydroxyindoleac-

etic acid (5-HIAA) of several hundred milligrams also-- an amount

well within the urinary excretion range of the average person

with a serotonin producing carcinoid. Such a dose of 5-HTP

certainly would result in a serotonin blood load comparable to

that of green-banana-diet eating people who have

serotonin-induced heart valve disease. Normally, people do not

excrete breakdown products of more than 10 mg of serotonin

metabolites per day. If you take one capsule per day of 50 mg

5-HTP with 10 mg B6, however, you would be expected to go to at

least 50 mg per day of 5-HIAA in the urine. Less metabolism in

the liver (less B6) would result in less 5-HIAA in the urine. If

you are going to take 5-HTP, therefore, you probably need 5-HIAA

urine monitoring, to figure out just how big a dose of systemic

serotonin you're actually getting (and incidentally, how much

5-HTP you're wasting). See a doctor!

Quite overjoyed am I to find this article the day after having dropped 30 bones on 5-htp with B6 added :mad:

[ 28. January 2003, 23:37: Message edited by: A480 ]

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Having tried 5HTP both with and without B6 supplementation I can say that it defeintely works better with B6. Try having the B6 in the morning (Berocca is good, and Cenovis have just released a B+C complex that's just as good, if not better, and cheaper too).

I dont know about serotonin's ability to cross the blood-brain barrier, I would assume that as it is a naturally occurring substance in the brain it would have good permeability. Anyone care to stump up hard research?

In any case, without B3, B6 and zinc, the body will convert 5HTP into Kynurenine instead of serotonin according to 'natural highs' by Partick Holford and Dr Hyla Cass.

Please note the dosage reported on: 'several hundred'. As in 200mg or 1500mg? Tested on humans or on rats or rabbits? I saw little referencing in the post.

I take my B supp at 7AM and my 5HTP at 9:30PM each day (100mg). The HTP I use has B6 included at a low dose and the regimen seems to work much better than the 5HTP only product that I tried at one point. I also take Siberian ginseng, high EPA/DHA fish oil, zinc, garlic and psyllium husk in water and I include plenty of fresh tomato, celery and greens in my diet. I'm prepared to risk heart disease from 5HTP and healthy living rather than from environmental stress and sedentary lifestyle!

No doubt if I had gone to see this self-proclaimed Dr. Steve ("Hi, doctor Steve!") Harris, he would have put me on Prozac or Aurorix or something equally 'safe'... which, in my experience, are really quite unpleasant to take- please forgive my subjectivity.

cheers

wazron

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Well, I've found plenty of contradictory articles (no, really?)...most seem to suggest that enough 5-htp makes it into the brain to make supplementation worthwhile but the B6 argument seems to be a wee bit thornier...did find this tho (but bear in mind this guy's hawking the stuff):http://www.mwilliamson.com/5htps.htm

The "Warning" also claims that Americans' use of vitamin B-6 supplements further worsens 5-HTP's (alleged) danger, since B-6 activates the enzyme that could convert 5-HTP to serotonin in the bloodstream. Yet experiments with monkeys (18) and rats (19) fed even "moderate excess" amounts of B-6, increased brain serotonin production up to 60%an impossible finding if B-6 would cause the bulk of ingested 5-HTP to be prematurely converted to serotonin outside the brain. And College Pharmacy of Colorado, one of America's premier mail-order compounding pharmacies, has been selling (by prescription) a 100 mg 5-HTP with 12.5 mg B-6 (and no PDI) since 1990 with no problems.

18. P. Hartvig et al. Pyridoxine Effect on Synthesis Rate of Serotonin in the Monkey Brain Measured with Positron Emission Tomography. J Neural Trans. 1995; 102: 91-7.

19. K. Dakshinamurti, et al. Influence of B Vitamins on Binding Properties of Serotonin Receptors in CNS of Rats. Klin Wochenschr. 1990; 68: 142-45.

So basically, I'm scoobied.

Since none of this applies to tryptophan, I'm curious as to what foods are the most efficient sources? I've heard Torsten mention salmon, but wouldn't the high protein content make it an (expensive) waste of time or is there more to it than that?

[ 11. February 2003, 02:29: Message edited by: A480 ]

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salmon is by far the best. turkey is a fairly close second.

I am stumped on the protein issue with salmon too, but it simply isn't a problem - ever. The fact that it is in fish even seems to negate the inhibiting effect proteins from other food sources should have (ie salmon eaten with/after egg or meat) Maybe it has something to do with the make up of the fishprotein, or maybe fish has substances that help absorption and then further synthesis to serotonin. Fact is that salmon is incredibly effective. I am sure that it is more effective than tryptophan tablets!!

Had a rather bizarre and intense experience with a new brand of smoked salmon last night which I will have to look into some more (and report here). Basically I don't remember anything that happened after eating it and it took 2000mg of tyrosine to snap me out of it this morning. All that from just 100g of fish. 25g would have been plenty I think, which means this stuff was more than 4 times as strong as even the best brands. Now I need to find out if this was due to my personal response (ie maybe low serotonin levels that day) or if this is really a superfish

Anyway, I have NEVER had such a strong reaction even from huge doses of tryptophan (10,000mg) taken with perfect preparation.

Daniel will be my first Guinea Pig for this one

Darklight is next....

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Live in fear, dudes. I knew he only asks me to dinner so he can experiment on me :)

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Hey T dont forget the positive effect on mental health from HUFA's and PUFA's (Long chain fatty acids) which are rich in oceanic predatory fish

Relationships between Mood and fatty acid intake are well documented.

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Originally posted by reville:

Hey T dont forget the positive effect on mental health from HUFA's and PUFA's (Long chain fatty acids) which are rich in oceanic predatory fish

Relationships between Mood and fatty acid intake are well documented.

I thought these were more long term effects rather than immediate effects. Admittedly, it too me well over 24 hours to get over that meal.

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hehe probably mercury poisoning

but seriously - I have encountered sources that say the exact opposite to what I thought was generally held to be true - that 5-HTP is totally useless as it does *not* result in elevated 5-HT levels in the brain, whereas tryptophan does.

I thought that the tryptophan hydroxylase catalysed conversion of trp into 5-HTP was the rate limiting step, but apparently it is the

L-aromatic amino acid decarboxylase step...

Which would mean that DOPA should be useless as a precursor for dopamine... but it isn't... (as long as you take it with the appropriate enzyme inhibitor)... perhaps I should just get off my arse and do some reading... (unless I got this last bit wrong)

I reckon it'd be really interesting to look into designing some really groovy enzyme-mimicking organometallic catalysts to use in synthesis...

MMmmmm :) then it really would just be like cooking...

take one cup of D-lysergic acid amide monohydrate, make a well in centre, pour in half a cup of diethylamine and a pinch of enzyme and stir well.

Mmmmmm ambient conditions... :)

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oh - Wazron - because of the hydrophilic nature of 5-HT (due to the two hydroxyl groups on the indole ring) there would be either very VERY poor passage through the blood-brain barrier, or else none at all.

tryptophan on the other hand does not have these hydroxyl groups, but perhaps, since it is ionised at physiological pH (as all amino acids are) might also find it hard to pass through. However I think it does get through somehow!

5-HTP on the other hand wouldn't get through nearly as well.

Of course it probably does still make it through... psilocin does after all,and that has a hydroxy group on the indole ring... (but only one)

Sorry to speculate but I could probably find out if you really wanted me to.

(hehe well actually I *definitely* could find out... the book is about 3 feet away and I can't be bothered opening it...)

:)

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maybe I will look this up...

OK!

I have turned part of a book into a html file, so anyone who is interested can read it here:

http://www.ethnobotany-australia.net/5HT.html

PLEASE read it - it took ages to do :)

it is about serotonin biosynthesis (in your brain)

:):)

[ 12. February 2003, 19:30: Message edited by: eccles ]

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"the hydrophilic nature of 5-HT (due to the two hydroxyl groups on the indole ring)"

Only one hydroxyl group, thats why its called 5-hydroxytryptamine (aka. serotonin).

"tryptophan... since it is ionised at physiological pH (as all amino acids are)"

Its ionized at all pH levels (either in the form of the carboxylate salt, the ammonium salt, or the zwitterionic form).

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Thank you Adrian, Much appreciated!

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oooop!!! sorry I was getting it mixed up with dopamine...

And yeah Auxin you're right about the ionisation too I think (I couldn't quite remember whether there were some pH's where they are not ionised but of course they are hey

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sorry to interrupt geek boys

torsten, of course i gotta ask, what brand?

[ 14. February 2003, 00:37: Message edited by: coin ]

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