Highs and lows of burgeoning synthetic drug market

[santiago]

no i find the chaser moronic whitewind. the vodka shooter in the eyball is old news. that was done 40 years ago i have heard from my folks. its just a fad...im sure you will get over it soon enough. never done it myself but faced with the choice i would do a vodka shooter eyeball style anyday over a shamans dust/puff a4-ddmy whatever the kids are chasing these days, im actually disgusted by the legal high industry...lets get that straight.

even if i did shoot vodka up my bum.....is that ok with you, or do i need to get a whitewind permit first. what do you think as a whole about things going up bums....seems you have a little issue there mate. why would i be on channel 7 reporting about SAB, i have been part of this community for a few years and im proud of that fact, i have met and are friends with people on this forum so whats your point. in regards to your point...i saw the outcry a few months back here about the today tonight story, i live in WA and we never saw the story, never heard anything more about it but a demanding type letter to the government from greg kasarik that was posted, of course even though i replied to torsten directly in this thread doesnt mean i wish him bad in regards to today tonight, he is a big boy and as a part of this community i also too have a vested interest in this community. so i dont know what your point is besides trying to gain some brownie points for whatever you believe is your truth. good luck with that. i rarely visit you tube and certainly never twitter, i dont know what your looking at im afraid.

[whitewind]

Joking Santiago Sorry didn't mean to get you riled up. I just thought that episode of chaser was really fucking funny, they did a skit taking the piss out of mainstream media going nuts on the "latest teen trends" of fucking themselves up doing really stupid shit and posting it on youtube. Basically, non-news bashing teenagers and drugs, and trends being nothing of the sort. You happening to mention the vodka-eyeballing thing was clearly co-incidental to theirs, quite strange as I had never heard of such a peculiar practice before. Licking eyeballs, yes, but...

[Torsten]

so are these things like alpha-pvp actually legal to import and possess? Customs is letting a-pvp thru? What other things might we assume customs is letting through and police are letting be sold?

Thel - they are not legal to import, but customs simply does not have the skill & will to detect these things effectively. The NSW cops have just ruined someone's business because the state lab misinterpreted the state analogues clause. This shit happens all the time, but mostly it happens in the importers favour. Just because customs lets something through [even if it was tested] does not make it legal.

Santiago, - I have no stake in the synth market. I just see the current situaiton as a best case scenario to achieve some legal changes. eg imagine if they allow synth cannabinoids to a certain concentration level in freely available products. how long do you think they will then be able to keep claiming that natural cannabinoids are more dangerous and hence must stay prohibited? ditto for mdma and other drugs. The proposed changes will actually be very bad for some of my business partners and hence for my business, so I am actually fighting for something that is against my personal interests, but what i think is the right thing for society. It's one of the risks of owning a business in a niche market that is created by stupid laws. Take away the laws and the niche opens up, which is bad for the existing operators, but good for everyone else.

Also, upon re-reading your post i got so pissed off about I realised that I probably read it wrong. The way i read it has emphasis on "what you see is what you get, do not do legal drugs", which indicated to me that you felt legal drugs were useless. I now see that this is not what you meant because the WYSIWYG comment was in relation to the preceeding phrase "do a vodka shooter in your eyeball, what you see is what you get". Maybe if you used reasonable grammar and punctuation rather than stringing together 3 sentences with commas this could have been avoided. Anyway, sorry for flying off like that.

[santiago]

I will take your advice kindly and try to use better grammar. I use the .... to create a pause but i will try limit that as its lazy. It was wrong of me anyway to make a stupid, no meaning comment of which you are 100% correct that i really understand very little of and i apologise for that. Serve's me right for jumping in on a conversation trying to be smart but i really appreciate you in the following regard.

[Bush Turkey]

The NSW cops have just ruined someone's business because the state lab misinterpreted the state analogues clause.

can you discuss this further or not at this time?

[Torsten]

sorry, not at this time. But a similar case also happened in Qld about a year ago though i don't have many details on that one. I just know they are getting sued as a result.

[SunChaser]

SEVERAL kilograms of Venom, a new type of synthetic cannabis, were seized during a raid in Perth's southern suburbs prompting police to warn of the dangers of the drug.

Police are investigating the alleged importations into WA of Venom after the discovery during searches of two premises.

Nobody has been charged over the seizures, but the investigation is continuing. Police are warning the WA community about the dangers and legal implications facing people possess or use prohibited synthetic drugs such as Venom.

ChemCentre has identified the active ingredients in Venom as the synthetic cannabinoids AM2201 and XLR-11.

Synthetic cannabinoids can produce adverse health effects including elevated heart rate, elevated blood pressure, anxiety and hallucinations, seizures, and long lasting perception disorders.

It is a criminal offence to possess, sell or supply AM2201 or XLR-11.

Police want to remind retailers and the public that all synthetic cannabinoid substances are illegal to sell and/or possess in WA.

Products such as Venom, which are marketed as a "legal high", may contain synthetic cannabinoids or other prohibited substances.

Anyone in possession of Venom is advised to avoid taking the drugs and destroy them immediately.

 

http://www.perthnow....u-1226513782762

I really don’t understand this. AM2201 is listed as specifically illegal under federal and most state laws right? So why is venom still being openly sold over the Internet or in stores right across Australia?

Don’t get me wrong, I personally couldn’t care less if people are openly selling illegal products, I just don’t understand the logic behind it. I mean, if people were openly selling cannabis over the Internet and it was reported in the media, then the cops would be right on them, they’d shut the whole operation down that same day.

To be honest it actually makes me kind of angry! The police are more than happy to commit house invasion when they receive an anonymous call about a harmless individual growing his own herb for personal use, busting down doors at 7am in the morning and terrorising families and shit for some plant matter. But when there are people out there making extremely large amounts of money by openly selling illegal chemicals over the Internet, they don’t seem too careless.

Maybe personal cannabis busts just look better for police looking to work their way up the chain of command, than illegal obscure synthetic chemicals.

Edited November 14, 2012 by jabez

[Thelema]

Police want to remind retailers and the public that all synthetic cannabinoid substances are illegal to sell and/or possess in WA

There are 18 banned substances on the state list. The only way they can make this claim is to depend on the SUSDP scheduling:

Schedule 9:SYNTHETIC CANNABINOMIMETICSexcept when separately specified in these Schedules.

Now this standard applies to all states. So how come these products are able to be sold at all? Haven't NSW caught up on this idea yet? These storefronts are really toying with the law, aren't they? Even on KoK website they have a legal section which shows most of their herbal insence range to be legal in most states. Clearly this is impossible and they are ignoring this particular blanket ban.

[Bush Turkey]

pulled from news article......

Queensland police say they have seized $150,000 worth of synthetic drugs from 17 businesses and homes across the state's south-east.

Police say the drugs are advertised as 'legal highs' but probably contain banned chemical compounds.

Detective Superintendent Steve Holahan says so far two people have been charged with trafficking and producing dangerous drugs.

Police say further arrests are likely.

Detective Superintendent Holahan says Queensland laws ban many of the compounds in the synthetic drugs.

"We've got 22 compounds scheduled - actually listed," he said.

"We've got an extended definition of a dangerous drug which outlines that if a substance is an analog, a derivative or it has a substantially similar chemical structure and substantially similar pharmacological effects, it is a dangerous drug by definition."

He says it is important to get the drugs off the streets before the start of Schoolies this weekend.

"These substances that are often portrayed as legal highs and safe products have some very real dangers," he said.

"We have anectodal evidence recently in relation to incidents where people have died, and sustained serious injuries in other instances."

Detective Superintendent Holahan says some of the drugs contain a dangerous compound called Alpha-PVP.

"It's a psychotic-type substance and people suffer from their body overheating, psychotic events, very irrational behaviour, often leading to violent incidents where they cause significant destruction and often injure themselves as well," he said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-15/two-charged-over-150k-synthetic-drugs-bust/4373578

Edited November 15, 2012 by Bush Turkey

[SunChaser]

Just received this interesting article though google alerts authored by Monica Barratt & Stephen Bright, which kind of answers my questions in my last post.

Legal highs: what should we do about synthetic cannabis?

Synthetic cannabis is a lab-made product that mimics the effects of cannabis to give users a high when smoked. It has been sold in Australia since 2011 under various brand names, with a range of chemical compositions.

The product presents a unique challenge for drug policymakers. Despite 18 months of legislative action intended to ban synthetic cannabis, people in some states claim they can still walk into a sex store or tobacconist and purchase it. Clearly the legislative changes have not been totally effective.

Who uses synthetic cannabis in Australia?

Last month, we published findings from the first survey of synthetic cannabis users in Australia.

When we asked people why they had first used synthetic cannabis, its legal status was an important reason. While 39% stated that they first tried the product because it was legal, 23% mentioned its availability was important, and 8% mentioned its non-detection in drug testing as a key factor.

We also found that almost all synthetic cannabis users who participated in our study had previously or were currently using cannabis.

Furthermore, evidence from this study and from the wider literature (for example, by Christopher Hoyte and Maren Hermanns-Clausen) indicates that synthetic cannabis products may be as risky as or more risky than cannabis itself. This is due to the lack of information about the ingredients in synthetic cannabis products and the pharmacological profiles of different synthetic cannabis varieties. We have virtually no information about longer term effects of these drugs.

The current state of regulation

A year ago, we published a summary of the legal status of synthetic cannabinoids in Australia. Since then, the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) enacted new laws that prohibited eight broad classes of synthetic cannabinoids as well as any drugs that mimic cannabis.

These laws were intended to capture synthetic cannabinoids that were yet to be identified or even synthesised, in order to put an end to the cat and mouse game, where manufacturers introduce a new product immediately after legislators prohibit an old one.

Despite the TGA laws being ratified six months ago, there does not appear to have been any prosecutions of manufacturers based on these laws to date.

While importation falls under federal legislation, most drug laws are state-based. And while the relevant legislation in some states such as Victoria refers to the TGA’s legislation, the drug laws in other states such as New South Wales do not.

Our advice from law enforcement representatives in these states suggests that prosecution using the TGA’s legislation can only occur in federal jurisdictions (such as border control) and requires involvement by federal agents.

Nonetheless, even in Victoria – where some stores have reportedly had their synthetic cannabis confiscated since the TGA’s laws were ratified – it is unclear whether charges will be laid. Until charges are laid and these cases tried, the impact of the new laws remains unclear.

In another development, Queensland moved to independently implement new legislation redefining a “dangerous drug” as anything intended to “have a substantially similar pharmacological effect” to a banned substance.

But this legislation was not ratified, which meant that Queensland police eventually dropped charges against a number of retailers whose synthetic cannabis was confiscated.

Assessing the regulatory options

Given the ambiguity regarding synthetic cannabis, a NSW parliamentary committee is assessing the regulatory options for newer synthetic drugs. Last month, the committee heard evidence from government officials, industry representatives and researchers.

We outlined the following five possible regulatory options for the committee, while also recognising that the evidence to guide decision-making is limited.

The first is to continue banning individual substances as they become known. This option results in legislation and services playing catch up to an ever increasing array of new substances. A risk is that it may contribute to more harm by driving newer and lesser known products onto the market.

The second regulatory option is to ban broad categories of substances, including ones that activate the same brain systems as currently prohibited substances. But these broader laws have so far not been successfully prosecuted. They also assume that drugs of a similar category or that act on similar parts of the brain have similar harm profiles, when this may or may not be the case.

The third is to use currently available laws for the regulation of medicinal or consumer products, as some experts recently suggested. While this option may have merit, it offers only limited control.

The fourth option is to follow New Zealand’s lead and implement a specific regulatory regime for new psychoactive substances. Under the proposed system, distributors will be required to establish the safety of their products at their own expense before they may be legally sold. This new regulatory regime offers an alternative policy response to mitigate against the harmful cycle of new, untested drugs being sold as “legal highs”, but its success is yet to be established.

The fifth option is to design a new legislative framework that regulates all psychoactive substances. This option is consistent with recent calls for drug law reform. However, the Gillard government has indicated that it will not consider this option, and we still know very little about what the supply, use and harms of synthetic cannabis would look like if cannabis were legally available.

Even though there is no clear evidence to guide policy making in this area, we do know that the emergence of newer synthetic drugs is a complex challenge that requires consideration of all available policy options. We await the recommendations from the NSW Inquiry, due in 2013, which are likely to guide the direction of both state and commonwealth policy reform.

http://theconversati...-cannabis-10386

[Torsten]

Thelema, the TGA S9 does not apply equally in all states. Each state is slightly different. This leaves certain cannabinomimetics legal in NSW which is where they are distributed from.

[Thelema]

ru kidding me? NSW state does not ratify or incorporate the SUSMP into any of it's poisons or drugs acts? You've got to be kidding.

[Torsten]

that's not correct and not what I said. And I think it would be foolish to publicise 'shortcomings' in the legislation. Sitting in at the NSW parliamentary enquiry into synthetic drugs I realised just how little the lawmakers, the AG, and even the law society understand about all this. I'd hate to help them along the current ridiculous path.

[Stillman]

Saw the "sting" in South East QLD on the News yesterday. Just in time for Schoolies. Looks like the school girls will be its back to buying dirty crank from the Finks lol.

In all seriousness and I hate to sound like my Father but I think its probably a good thing removing products like these. Prohibition doesn't work but.. I can see why they are having a go at it in this case.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Stillman

[Thelema]

Does this mean that Salvinorin A is legal in NSW?

I found this neat report of chemcentre's analysis of K2 and Kronic blends last year: It seems the formulas were not as prolific and inventive as we thought. JWH-018 was still the most popular additive, followed by Am 2201 and RCS-4. A few samples indeed contained methylone, phenazepam, and 5meo-DALT, as I previously hinted at.

It looks like Australian market never really entered the 2nd or 3rd generation properly.

http://www.parliamen...on%20No%209.PDF

Torsten has edited this post because it contained information that he believes might arm the prohibitionists stance in the War on drugs in NSW. It has been edited Orwellian-like because it also possibly harms his own financial interest. Tonight, Torsten, in a series of PM's has intimidated me, threatened me, bullied me and insulted me over the legal fact that was originally included in this thread. He told me I was betraying his confidence and threatened to publish sensitive information about me publically as a form of threat. If you guys could see what has just transpired you would be disgusted and many of you I am sure would think twice about your opinion of Torsten.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Thelema

[Torsten]

australia went far byond the am2201/RCS4. In fact there have been at least 40 other compounds on the australian 'incense' market. The 'generations' concept got a bit blurred after about gen5. It's just we never got to the point of putting stuff like tryptamines or PEA/ketones in them. Phenzepam was a production 'accident' [ie filthy lab] at the RC supplier.

stillman - not a single of the HHH products displayed for the media yesterday contains an illegal chemical. That includes the full table of 'evidence' the cops displayed for the media. That was the typical commercial media trash you should expect from those outlets. The only products that MAY have been illegal were the ones they showed coming out of the private residence/garage. The warrants themselves were the vaguest I have ever seen. Basically they claimed the cops had the right to seize any powder or liquid on the basis that "a powder was sold by a person unknown at a location unknown and contained an illegal drug". WTF? So if someone down the street sold drugs the cops can raid any premise in that street 'on suspicion'. It's disgusting.

[Stillman]

I actually went in to HHH in the Valley today and had a look around. They still had a few smoke blends up a bag of scelly that sort of thing, lady seemed a bit tense but maybe I look a bit shifty lol.

[Thelema]

Hey, I hardly said any more than you did T-that S9 does not apply equally in all states. I basically just confirmed what you said. Pretty hypocritical of you on one hand to be helping people like Tronica get clear about the law, and then expecting a different standard of Truth-revealing to apply on this forum. Take a pill.

[Torsten]

Tronica uses the clear legislation to provide further truthful information that is very helpful in this stupid WOD. You just use such information for your own personal use and grandstanding.

[chilli]

jeez you two are just in love

[Thelema]

The report I linked to plainly identifies tryptamines and cathinones found in K2 and Kronic blends in Australia - if someone bothered to read the link at all they'd see it in black and white as analysed by Chemcentre. Based on this document, the most extensive analysis done of Australian blends in the last 12 months, it is plainly false to say that Australia went "far beyond this".

As for me being a grandstander, take a long hard look at yourself Torsten. You are a bully and frankly tonight you have acted like a real dickhead towards me. If anyone has a trouble with grandstanding and rampant ego, it is YOU my friend.

[Torsten]

chemcentre did not do the most extensive analyses. I did. At least in terms of variety of compounds present. Not much point analysing the same product that is sold under 10 different labels, like the chem centre does.

because of the testing service I offer though my overseas partners I even know you what will hit the oz market in 2 months and in 4-5 months. The main reason chemcentre gets such a limited range of products is because the cops walk into the shops with pictures of what to look for and rarely seize anything else. So the new products simply don't get seized most of the time. If you go looking for the same thing all the time obviously you're going to get the same results all the time. If you had a look at the NSW and Qld data you'd see the huge variety of compounds that have come onto the scene in the last 18 months, and I know these products are distributed into WA too.

[Thelema]

Hey Torsten, any chance of seeing your analyses published or posted?

Why go to all that trouble if it's not going public? I don't get it.

[Torsten]

geez, do I need to spell everything out?

if overseas suppliers want too supply into australia or other countries they need to tell the wholesale importers what is in the product, which they are not willing to do. however, they are willing to tell me. I then get it analysed overseas to ensure that the supplier has the right product and that nothing else is present. I tell the customers what legal risks they take for their particular state and what i think of the product's safety. the customer then does the transaction directly with the supplier. This method does not prevent the supplier from substituting a different product later on, but that would then be deception and hence protects the importer legally as convictions require knowledge and intent. I also do spot checks on the imported product of the importer sends a sample to the lab.

I do not get to handle any of the product as this is all done overseas. I do not get to see the packaging or brandnames it is sold as [which is pretty irrelevant anyway]. I don't even know most of the importers. I do however know many of the overseas suppliers. Even when a product is imported into oz without my testing I still usually find out what has hit our shores or what is being sent.

I've pretty much stepped away from this in the last few months because most rogue suppliers have been weeded out in the dwindling market and the importers who care enough to use my service also care enough to stick with reliable suppliers. ie I have tested myself out of work, LOL. Most samples i now get processed are for the UK market so it is safe to assume that the same blends end up here some time later if they fit the loopholes.

I obviously can't go public without permission and noone seems keen to release that info even after the product is no longer made. This is especially the case for blends of compounds because people want to keep their recipes secret in case they find a new market somewhere [there are new and surprising markets/countries opening up all the time].

[SunChaser]

Well, personally I couldn’t care less about drug scheduling or loopholes or whatever. I’m most certainly not taking any sides in any argument either, that goes against everything I’m about.

None the less, I’m personally very thankful to Thelema for going out of his way to bring attention to the fact that there putting chemicals onto some of these blends that aren’t even cannabinoid agonists and are actually in some cases very potent psychedelics. This practice is very poor form, imo and is the sort of thing that could end up having very negative and permanent effects on some people.

I knew deep down when I first smoked code black that there was something else being effected apart from my cannabinoid receptors, when I got that out of body effect, that you get at the peak of an acid trip where you can look at yourself from an outsiders prospective. Except this wasn’t the beautiful euphoric effect where you feel a connection with everything and at one with the universe revelation type feeling that you get from acid. This was more like feeling like a junkie rat that’s smoked my entire life away and destroyed all my chances and am going to live the rest of my life alone and die on my own a pathetic old man type revelation, all flying though my head at a thousand miles an hour.

Which btw, is probably true and obviously my own fault, but it wasn’t what I needed at that point in my life, I was just looking to activate my cannabinoid receptors, then watch some tv, eat a bag of Doritos, then easily drift off to sleep for once in a happy blissful ignorance. Instead I was overwhelmed with the prospective of a reality of being alone on a barron rock in a cold empty dark and meaningless universe. I went from just having no motivation to live and wishing I could get this bitch over and done with and just develop cancer or something, to full on actively thinking of ways to get a clean way out, right then and there. The only logical option out of the mental torture chamber I was stuck in, that I could see at the time, was just to smoke more of this shit, till I K.O’d myself and could just sleep without having to deal with it.

A few weeks later, I had a serious physical addiction and a deep desire to commit suicide, all because some Einstein thought it would be a good idea to lace this blend with some horrible drug, then sell it under the pretence of it being just a cannabinoid agonists!

Anyway, I’m more than willing to except that I’m personably responsible for my own miserable frame of mind, I’m not putting the blame on anybody or any drug. It’s my own fault I’ve wasted my life and no one forced me to smoke code black. But fuck man, two wrongs don’t make a right. It’s a rotten thing to do, to lace a herbal incense with a potent psychedelic, then sell it under the pretence of it just being a cannabinoid agonist. Fucked me right up! I was already in a bad enough place as it was.

It’s a very low act. Harm reduction should always come before personal gain, otherwise it just proves that we can't be trusted and that drugs should remain illegal.