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Voyage Into The Next Dimension (Unterwegs in die nächste Dimension), a German production with english voice-over this movie:

 

A very interesting documentation on shamans from all over the world, including the great ayahuasquero Don Agustin from the Peruvian Amazon, Anthony Vivero from the Philippines and his daughter, Evgeny Boderenko from Russia who made a scientific proof of his abilities, Lhamo Dolkar from Nepal, U Shein from Burma and the great mudang Hiah Park from Korea.

The book on german:

http://www.amazon.de.../toc/3442218365

Edited by mindperformer
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Nice doco, but I am always a bit skeptical when someone claims to have scientific proof of paranormal abilities (as in the case of Evgeny here). I think shamanic healing occurs on a plane that is beyond that which is physically measurable.

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in my experience the chances of finding an authentic shaman as a tourist is like looking for a needle in a hay stack, most of them are rascals, and you drink a lot of swill before you find decent yage.

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for some people, scientific explanations demystifiy shamanic practices but I think it gave it a more complete explanation. One cannot reduce it on this measurements, they are only the measurable tip of the iceberg.

It is right, that finding an authentic shaman is not an easy task, but it is possible to feel the energy of a strong shaman in a ritual.

Hiah Park gave me an overwhelming experience.

Shamanism is the most primordial and universal spiritual practice and shamans from all over the world take similar approaches like sucking the disease out of the body (from Amazonia to Nepal).

Edited by mindperformer

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Nice doco, but I am always a bit skeptical when someone claims to have scientific proof of paranormal abilities (as in the case of Evgeny here). I think shamanic healing occurs on a plane that is beyond that which is physically measurable.

 

Claiming the James Randi Foundation's 1 million dollars would be a great start :) You don't have to measure it how it works, all you have to do is show that it works on a higher percentage than a similarly measured placebo. Its also incredibly easy to tell if the physical damage healing has worked or not, thus the results are fairly easily measurable !

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Im sceptical mindperformer, not of you but of pure cold hard facts. Because i dont have any facts i typed in a pimply faced teenager question into googla.

I asked " what is the most supernatural event in history?''

strangely enough 2 down a close question was posed similar on what looked like a intelligent forum, well kinda.....kind of had to laugh a bit when i saw these great minds, ie physics nerds get into a lil forum bitchslap. But i thought they provided a good insight into meta science.

http://www.physicsfo...hp/t-56978.html

and as with elsewhere i was unable to pull up ''even small evidence" of anything supernatural.

why is that?

1) There is no supernatural

2) Science cannot explain or get evidence on spirituality.

3)There is a supernatural but their hiding from us.

4)Proof is coming soon, wait and see

5) .....other : )

anyway what im getting at is, not the politics of it all....or the scary stories, i just believe the facts are too overwhelming to overcome. no proof anywhere.

Most of the better details were hundreds of years old, which tends me to believe that, when a man 20000 years ago.....saw a beautiful big rainbow, he didnt know that was due to us living on a planet in space, which in tern explains alot about rainbows as we know them being simply born of a star, our sun.......but that guy 20000 years ago, must have absolutely been amazed by the sight of a vivid rainbow.

Without going much deeper, that is the supernatural. It most certainly was years ago, thus the formation of the human psych was created on a a supernatural force, great ghosts, and monsters and vampires. Most importantly......the rainbow for that leads to the pot of gold. That pot of gold metaphorically, is the afterlife. A mechanism to deal with death and the unexplainable. Isnt it co-incidental that no man in history ever successfully caught that rainbow. And thats the lesson i learn, is that even though today it may not be a rainbow....we are so deeply ingrained in mythology stemming from the past, which also forms a controlling factor on this planet....religion. The same problem happens from the rainbow, not one person has ever come back from being dead. Properly dead. Which means no proof at all of an afterlife. Just like rainbows, we still chase chase chase but it just keeps getting away. But this is where somebody who is for example religious ....quotes faith. Ahh faith.

I suppose you have faith mindperformer in shamanism, and so called supernatural tales, but for example you said that man sucked the spirit out, i would just see as at most placebo (which is supernatural in a paradox kind of way) or pure mathematical probability, given that shamans, the millions who may have lived....generally were the go-to man. So statistics wise, a fair amount of chance he gets it right curing people....plus his considerable life skills help also, so the shaman creates a few tall stories to keep himself a influential figure, and the system in balance.....in a time before, an eclipse could not be simply explained for example.

i personally have never seen anything creepy, like a ghost.......spirit. Im happy to revisit my own beliefs from time to time and change if need be. In a few months time it will be the end of the world, or will it just be.......happy new years 2013. Yippee B)

Edited by santiago

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I am not one of the "lifted off eso-freaks" and always sceptical about reports on supernatural things, because in an area without scientific evidence, many charlatans exist. There are a few shamans and healers who really have powers, the others work with placebo effect and their active herbs.

BUT: this does not mean that all the views of shamans are archaic from times with no scientific explanation.

We were "well-bred" with the hyperrational views of the western world, to aim at more productivity and play a role in the industrial system,

without breaking out to think about the sense...

I think shamanism is more than placebo-rituals and herbs... some people must make the experience to believe it and sometime there will be more scientific explanations too, but I don't think this would demystify it, because real science is even mysthical. The sucking (by a real shaman) simply works for most people around the world, especially compared with placebo.

With shamanic plants its the same problem, to fully understand them its necessary to get oneself into the traditional belief-complex around the plant. The scientific view is only the tip of the iceberg.

We have unlearnt many things in our culture...

Edited by mindperformer
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I'm wondering about the view of most people on ethnobotany.

As we know ethnobotany is not about scientific explanations of constituents and botanics (taxonomy, ...), but about the traditional usage and the position of plants in the traditional belief-system of the cultures in which they are used. It is part of ethnology and not of botany.

Many pharmaceutists, on the search for new constituents, ask shamans about their plants, analyse them and make patents on them. This is like stealing knowledge and wresting them from their traditional usage complex.

BUT: For me both views (the scientific explanations and the traditional beliefs) does not compete, but complementing each other.

Edited by mindperformer

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I used to believe the supernatural / spirit world was all nonsense - until I drank aya

Edited by Heretic
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I used to believe the supernatural / spirit world was all nonsense - until I drank aya

 

There’s actually a term they use for that, it’s called psychosis.

Having a spiritual awakening from a psychoactive substance, is no different to an easily manipulated individual who walks into a church, gets overwhelmed and starts talking in tongues and hearing the voice of god.

Shamans & religious leaders are usually just people who have an amazing ability to stimulate deep emotions within certain people and alter their perception of reality.

The reason this method of manipulation is so effective, is because most people have a deep & instinctive fear of reality. The reality being, that our very existence on this little rock we inhabit, is insignificant & completely meaningless.

Homo sapiens are still just a primitive from of life, yet our brains have evolved to a point where we can actually contemplate our own existence, which manifests an overwhelming desire for our existence to be of some sort of significance. This desire is so powerful that the human mind can easily ignore rational & logical thought, in order to give their own existence reason and a higher meaning.

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Which reality do you mean? Everyone has another view and perception of reality, our brain is like radio receiver, from which one can adjust the frequency and pick up different signals.

Reality is generated in the prefrontal lobes and some other higher areas and the perception is bounded by many filters (inhibiting circuits), not to get overwhelmed by the impressions in every day life.

Hallucinogens shift this filters and some sedatives amplify them.

There have been found similarities between hallucinogenic actions and psychosis and other mental diseases, but the differences are bigger.

The border between what is seen as mental disease and healthy is also very vague. In some cultures a light psychosis can be interpreted as connection to god or another world/ view and shamans are always at first a little bit different (aliens) in their tribe before they get shamans, but they are for sure completely integrated in their society to understand the problems of their patients.

The deep emotions during spiritual experiences, you mentioned, came from a specific area / circuits in the brain which can be found in nearly all humans, so it could be said that it is an experience very own to the human brain, wich can be triggered by different stimuli.

Edited by mindperformer

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Yeah, the perception of the human mind is clearly incredibly complex and permutates greatly. But imo, our perception of reality, which is revealed within the human mind, is quite different to the reality of what actually is, which is revealed to us though the universe and our living world and takes place outside of the human mind.

I think a perfect example of this is Claudius Ptolemy’s Ptolemaic system. Ptolemy was able to accurately calculate the past and future movements of the known planets, by observing and measuring physical reality, which exists outside of the human mind. Yet, because of the perception of which takes place within the human mind, he had the earth at the centre of the universe, so had to make the planets do epicycles in order to be able to correctly calculate the movements of the planets.

It wasn’t till later on when Galileo Galilei decided to use the newly invented telescope to peer at the sky that we were able to more effectively observe the reality of the physical universe (which takes place outside of the human mind), that it was proven without doubt that earth was not the centre of anything.

Human perception (whether it’s spiritual beliefs or the optical illusion of the sun & planets orbiting around the earth) is probably a survival instinct, which we have evolved, in order to make sense of what can’t be explained or understood.

Our ability to create our own perceived reality within our minds, has probably greatly contributed to our ability to effectively work within a reality of which we do not understand. But imo, our accumulated knowledge and sophisticated tools have made this evolved trait obsolete and is now actually an obstacle, which is holding the human race back from becoming a higher life form.

Once humans finally abandon our primitive spiritual beliefs, I think we will finally be able to advance into something that has a true understanding of what we actually are and maybe even learn to self evolve into something which has some kind of control of our universe.

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has anyone done any random number generation manipulation while on shrooms/aya? Would a greater than chance result qualify for the Randi 1M prize?
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@ jabez: I absolutely agree, nice comparison with Galilei!

I think shamans can help us to finding new ways in progress

Edited by mindperformer

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has anyone done any random number generation manipulation while on shrooms/aya? Would a greater than chance result qualify for the Randi 1M prize?

 

interesting idea.... psychedelic immersion and totally improbable coincidences seem to go hand-in-hand. just take acid in a nexus of humanity like san francisco and see what adventures befall you... but I think this phenomena has a lot to do with resonant mental processes (i.e. between two people, or a person and a living creature) than purely the defying of ordinary causality. so I think the random number generator would not be able to prove this effect. its seems to me that these esoteric qualities of reality are in their nature beyond scientific explanation... learn to live with the mystery, rather than explain it.

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