Incarvillateine- stronger analgesic than morphine

[Freewheelin]

ty Anodyne, very helpful

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Did anybody follow this up?

I have seedlings growing, albeit not very strong and germination was sketchy..

Has anybody tried the 20:1 extract available online? Judging by MPs experience one would need just 100-150mg to achieve the same results... Smallest batches I could find was 100g... And it's cheap, very cheap... Possibly the next kratom. If I find some kahunas maybe I'll let yas know

[Slocombe]

I've managed to get hold of seeds. Germinating as we speak.

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Seeds seem easy to get, my bag had over 500, terrible germ rates tho and they seem quite slow this time of year. Maybe I'll move then inside.

I've always pondered since this thread came about if it's strain specific or if any plant in any nans garden has the properties. Once you find suppliers there are several flower colours etc I got white and yellow mixed

Edited June 19, 2015 by theuserformallyknownasd00d

[Cubism]

I got seeds too. Yet to try germinating yet. Figured I'll wait until spring.

[Freewheelin]

bought 2 packets of seeds from chilterns.

sowed them over 5 staggered lots.

got 1 to germinate (out of the first lot sowed).

nothing from the rest.

suspecting that the single seed that germinated is a tomato plant, on account of it's stark resemblance to a tomato seedling.

kinda pissed.

[Freewheelin]

not the first time i've had entire lots of seed sent from overseas faling to germinate. i wonder if they are getting baked in the cargo hold. it's not like they are insulated back there

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Doesn't seem like a common plant in western cultivation so I assume the seeds are wholesale from the "mainland" and quite old when they reach the consumer. I've never considered the cargo bay thing but yeh ya could be right

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

So the 20x isn't as strong as I was anticipating.. I've only gone the 2.5-3g equivalent so far but like MP says, it's "opiating". Effects seem to take 2hrs to take hold on an empty stomach, no discernible interactions with ~6 units of booze.

Edited March 30, 2015 by theuserformallyknownasd00d

[Freewheelin]

Just read this regarding sowing:

"Sowing advice: Seeds can be sown at any time but are best sown in winter or early spring to benefit from a cold spell in the wet compost to break their dormancy. We advise covering seeds very thinly with sand or fine grit to about the depth of the seed size. If the seeds do not come up within 6 to 12 weeks the damp seed tray can be given cold treatment in a fridge for about four weeks. They may still take very many months to appear, so please never discard the pot or tray."

[source]

[Cubism]

Nice one free wheelin. Wasn't too sure when to sow mine.

Edit : also mine weren't from chiltern. They were from somewhere in the US. Cant remember where though but will let youse know how the germ rate is.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Cubism

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Another order I sowed from seed4change outta New York are starting to germinate now. Heaps better rates than the others. I've been reading 10-15grams is typical Chinese pain relieving advice. Gonna need a lot if plants LOL

Edited April 2, 2015 by theuserformallyknownasd00d

[Freewheelin]

interesting results d00d. i'd try with mine but it's small, and it's almost certainly a tomato plant. would love to hear about your germ rates cubism i'm putting my seed trays in the fridge tomorrow. going to pull them out in staggered intervals of 1 week, 2 weeks, etc. i'll report back here in due time

[Cubism]

Seeds4change!!! Thats where mine were from. Thanks for jogging my memory dood

[Cubism]

Planted about ten seeds last Sunday, week later and there at nearly 100% germ rate. Chucked em in next to some cactus seeds in a mini propagator with a crappy fish tank led bar light. Be interesting to see how they go.

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

just hit up ebay and scored white n pink of sinensis

and darker looking pink delavayii

so i gottem in stock for when i get a chance to sprout em ...

does anybody know anything about their duration of viability please?

here's em on ozbay

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/221608461367?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AI

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/400662911117?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281265125978?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Anodyne]

Found some info about extraction process in a patent application...

Extraction of the whole plant of Incarvillea sinensis Lam. can be made from crude plants or dried and pulverized plants, using an organic solvent or water including hot water. A combination of an organic solvent and water may be used, when required. Organic solvents for extraction includes, for example, methanol, ethanol, n-butanol, ethyl acetate, chloroform, etc., among which methanol and ethanol are preferable. Extraction with these extracting solvents can be carried out at a temperature ranging from room temperature to reflux temperature.

Among these extracts, a component having a particularly remarkable analgetic and anti-infammatory action is a 60% methanol eluate fraction (Sample 6 as will be described later) of methanol extracts by polystyrene-based column chromatography, and incarvillateine is isolated from the eluate fraction as a compound having a good analgtetic and anti-inflammatory action. It is well known that incarvillateine itself is a compound isolated from 95% ethanol extract of Incarvilleasinensis Lam., but it is the present inventors that have found for the first time that the compound has a distinguished analgetic and anti-inflammatory action.

The analgetic and anti-inflammatory action can be observed among other monoterpene alkaloids extracted from Incarvilleasinensis Lam., together with incarvillateine. Such monoterpene alkaloids include the following compounds:

• Incarvilline
• Oxyincarvilline
• Incarvine A or its N-oxide
• Incarvine B
• Incarvine C
• Incarvine D
• Incarvillateine N-oxide
• 3''-methoxyincarvillateine

Organic solvent extracts or water extracts of Incarvillea sinensis Lam....

...Their toxicity is low, and investigation on wistar male rats for acute toxicity by oral admininistration showed no case of death even at a dose of 3,000 mg/kg(p.o.).

Although I can't see where they cite the source of that claim, I did find this abstract (Comparative studies of Chinese drug Tougucao on antiinflammatory and analgesic effects) which also says "The five species of Tougucao, especially Speranskia tuberculata and Incarvillea sinensis have very low toxicity." I don't know how reliable these sources are, but given the scarcity of information I'll take what I can get.

In summary: probably low toxicity, and can be easily extracted into water, ethanol, or various other organic solvents.

[Anodyne]

Tried the 20:1 extract a few times now (big thanks to the member who shared this! ) & while I don't have a clear picture yet I thought I'd finally make a few initial comments. I've tried doses between ~0.5-3g, and it is definitely active. Harder to pinpoint is exactly what kind of activity. I'm not sure that I'd call it "opiating". It's a pleasant sedative, sure. It's a little inebriating. But as far as pain relief goes I found it lacking - except in the sense that valium or alcohol or other sedatives can help with pain. Let's just say if I was one of those drug-discriminating rats (& let's face it, that's probably what I am ), I don't know that I'd be pressing the "opioid" lever on this one. It's possible that the opiate/analgesic effects kick in more obviously at higher doses, and I do have some opioid tolerance so it's possible I'd need higher doses than most, but honestly the sedation puts me off a little. Not that I'm averse to sedatives, but I was looking at this herb for daytime pain relief, and I'm not sure that it's going to fit that hat. However these are only first impressions, definitely need more experiments before I make up my mind about this one.

Another thing that makes me wonder about the opioid activity of this stuff is that I didn't notice any kind of potentiating or even additive effect when taken in combination with regular opiates - at least in terms of analgesia.

One other note for anyone playing with the extract - this stuff is strongly hygroscopic - I had the powder in a snaplock bag inside a sealed container with a desiccant pack & it still caked up within a week. If you want to put it into caps I recommend doing the whole lot immediately then storing with a lot of desiccant. Even when it cakes up it's still perfectly water-soluble though, so if you just wanted to dissolve it in water or juice it's not too much of an issue (aside from the water content making your dosage weights somewhat inaccurate). It tastes like really bad instant coffee.

[Anodyne]

Also, can we come up with a common name for this stuff? "Incarvillateine" is pretty, but it's kind of unwieldy. Some scientific papers were using the abbreviation "INCA", but I can see that leading to all kinds of misunderstandings. Apparently some common names are "hardy gloxinia" and "fern-leafed trumpet flower" if that helps any. And it's called "tòu gú căo" in TCM, but that name covers a group of 4 or 5 quite different plants - more often describing Speranskia Tuberculata & Impatiens balsamina. As far as I can make out tòu gú căo translates literally as something like "through-the-bone herb" or "to-go-through-the-bone grass", which I guess is a reference to their use as an arthritis treatment & the like. Any ideas people? C'mon, how often do you get the chance to create the common name for a drug? Just think, your contribution could be quoted in misleading government health documents for years to come!

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Thanks for the post Ano bro, appreciated!

Good to hear some other people's experiences with this. I found it a lot like you, only you are articulate

I've only ran it up to the equivalent ~6-7grams. Round here I've named her hardy cheron, as what was on the seeds I ordered. Would "cheron" be too confusing or hard to associate with the extract?

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Here are a few seeds4change sourced seedlings

[Anodyne]

Round here I've named her hardy cheron, as what was on the seeds I ordered. Would "cheron" be too confusing or hard to associate with the extract?

Was trying to figure out why they were called that, eventually discovered it must be in honour of the same guy that the whole genus was named after - Pierre Nicolas Le Chéron d'Incarville. Dunno might be a bit obscure, but then again so's the interest in this plant, so maybe we can sow the seeds...

Nice plants!

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Blah cheron it is ;) nice link there good research! Interesting he was a Jesuit haha

[Anodyne]

I've just been reading some more papers, thought I'd share my notes here:

One study⁽¹⁾ found the leaves to contain approx 25 & 50x the incarvillateine content of the stems & fruits respectively. The roots were not tested. The incarvillateine content of the leaves was 4.77mg/g, while the content in whole plant materials was roughly 1.5mg/g, depending on the ratio of leaves in the material. The stems alone had only 0.19mg/g. Although they didn't say so explicitly, they did mention powdering the leaves, so I assume this is all dry material. So that's good news for home harvesting - no need to chop up the whole plant or wait for it to fruit, because all the goodness is in the leaves.

Now supposedly incarvillateine is roughly equianalgesic with morphine (i.e. similar effects milligram-for-milligram). That's just a single study⁽²⁾ though - who knows how accurate it'll turn out to be. From the discrepancy between their numbers, mindperformers, and doods/my own, I would venture that fresh material is probably more potent (by weight), and also that "20:1 extract" (as so often happens) isn't actually 20x more potent than the dried plant material. If it was, & my maths is right, a gram of 20:1 extract should be equivalent to 100mg of morphine, and while ymmv, I didn't find it anywhere near that strong.

Interestingly that second study noted that the analgesic effect of incarvillateine could be blocked not only by opioid-antagonists, but also by "adenosine receptor antagonists such as caffeine or theophylline", so that might be something to keep in mind when using this material.

1. Quantitative determination of incarvillateine in Incarvillea sinensis by solid phase extraction and high performance liquid chromatography, by Chi et al. (2005)

2. Pharmacological Study on the Novel Antinociceptive Agent, a Novel Monoterpene Alkaloid from Incarvillea sinensis, by Chi et al. (2005)

Edited June 30, 2015 by Anodyne

[shonman]

accidentally ordered seeds from England on amazon.com, should be here in 3 weeks

(USA)

Edited July 24, 2015 by shonman