Anybody else despairing about the cost of real estate? haha

[gtarman]

Was just listening to this and wishing I had some real estate here in my bag...

 

But really...it does seem like anyone who wants some land or a house these days is mostly shit outta luck. Especially if you want to live somewhere beautiful near civilization, with a decent climate...the prices are astronomical.

An older bloke I used to work for told me a story (most older people have such stories) about when he was younger and could have bought a big block with a house overlooking the river in Port-something-or-other for $7000. These days that same block is valued upwards of $1.5M...even with currency inflation etc you gotta admit that that's messed up. Who has a million dollars?! even half or a quarter or a tenth?!

It would almost be comical if it wasn't so depressing. I mean for me, $100,000 is about as much as I could hope to save in 5 years of full-time hard yakka slog (aka the stressful, shit life)..and especially when there's no guarantees - ie I could die tomorrow, or in 2 years or 3..and not even get to enjoy the last couple of years of my time on Earth because I was too busy waiting for "the good life"...

I'm almost tempted to move to Detroit and buy one of those $10,000 houses. Some kind of economic collapse..that's what we need here haha.

[r2pi]

Yes - it is ridiculous.

Every one of is is born into the world as a bond slave. Most will need to submit to wage slavery for several decades before the debt they are born with to the capital class is paid off and they have "earned" the right to occupy a small amount of space on this planet .

Edited August 24, 2012 by r2pi

[Bush Turkey]

yeah was thinking about this the other day.

My great great grandpa bought land on the beach in Mandurah like 80 odd years ago for $200.. pounds i think..

My Nanna sold half of the block for $2 mil a couple of years ago

Edited August 24, 2012 by Bush Turkey

[gtarman]

I dunno if I'd be as dramatic as to call myself a slave or to blame it on capitalism or any particular "group" of people. From what I can tell I don't think it's anything that organized or deliberate - I'm not an expert though so I can't go into detail about exactly why things are the way they are...

From the reading I've done on housing affordability it seems to be a public-policy nightmare - and one that's not going to be touched anytime soon because it's politically unviable - it would take several elections worth of time to implement changes, and would be radically unpopular for the precise reason that 70% of the population already have property or mortgages, and it's in their best interest to keep the prices high (because they already forked out the dough, so losing land value is literally losing capital/equity for them).

I really would like to research this further though, I find it fascinating.

[gtarman]

Another factor is that the demand for housing is rising much faster than the supply. While I'm not inherently anti-immigration at all and I think most "stop-the-boats" kinda people and politicians are just bigots, you have to admit that there are massive influxes of people to Australian cities and (more recently) regional centers..and so far we haven't done the greatest job of supporting that on the development and infrastructure side of things.

FWIW I don't think we should EVER turn away asylum-seekers, no matter what the housing situation is like...but I think that maybe slowing regular immigration down for a little while as we take a breath and let the infrastructure catch up might be a good idea. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong...I haven't really done enough solid research in this area to say I have a firm opinion.

[Change]

5 day working weeks

Struggling to pay rent to some asshole landlord who already owns his own place

Kinda feels like Slavery.

Giving the majority of income to a guy who already owns his own place thus holding me back from saving for my own.

Death To Landlords

[gtarman]

Haha. The bastards! Although to be fair, most of them are just trying to make ends meet and make their own lives more comfortable - just like the rest of us...I don't think it's fair to think of them as some kind of organized, cigar-puffing elitists controlling the world to keep themselves on top.

I agree that the housing industry leans a little too far toward profit and monopoly and needs to be brought back a bit more towards a place of utility and accessibility however...I'm not talking about any kind of socialism or a re-distribution of anything. Just that the housing industry and federal and state taxes need to be geared more toward favouring the indivual who wants a home of their own to live in, and less so the guy who wants to own 10 houses and an apartment building for personal profit.

I can also see why people make the comparison with slavery, but I just think it's too much of an exaggeration. Compared to real slavery (which is still going on in parts of the world) the stuff we deal with is trivial.

Edited August 24, 2012 by gtarman

[CβL]

Another thing that I have read is that the true inflation rate is a lot higher than it's estimated to be. I think estimates place it at about 3% p.a. as there's incentives to make it appear lower. I think that it's actually at least 1% higher (which is a lot when it's compounded) Can't say I did anything other than hear this somewhere else - could be completely off the mark.

Edit:

I think that the slavery complaint rings true, but by comparison it's not nearly as despicable as actually being owned by someone else. It's not really an argument to dismiss the idea of feeling trapped and without choice because by comparison there are worse things. You could use the same argument in a vein like "it's only a small genocide I'm perpetrating, compared to the Holocaust - it's trivial."

Secondly, immigration cannot be stopped for the reason that the economy of most Western nations requires "growth", and that requires a constant influx of people. Debt is constantly created, and the only way to stave it (other than some much needed reforms) is to keep growth pumping. If immigration collapsed, and there weren't matching reforms - the loans would default. In a way this is what has happened to many European nations that have negative growth and haven't had reforms to keep debt at bay.

The other thing is that there are certain times where it's impossible to catch up. A lesser amount growing exponentially cannot ever gain on a larger amount growing at the same exponential rate. This might be obvious in the abstract, but people forget that money works this way also. If you have a $200 debt at 5% interest p.a., and $180 investment at 5% interest p.a., then the gap will grow larger forever, and your investment makes less and less of a difference to paying off your debt. It's easy to see when it's a simple example like this, but it's harder to see that the economies of many countries are in similar positions.

Edited August 24, 2012 by CβL

[qualia]

the housing affordability problem isn't going to go away. governments know full well whats causing it (negative gearing/capital gains tax) but are no where near interested in fixing it. one can only guess that they have friends/family or they themselves invest in real estate and want to keep the perks. either that or they just don't give a shit. fuck politicians. fuck them all. but, the bubble will at least deflate a bit over the next few years, but i wouldn't consider buying within the next 5 years, not if theres not a significant downward trend on house prices.

[qualia]

plus there's that aussie dream of "3br big back yard", that shit just isn't possible anymore. not without significant infrastructure investment to better join the outer suburbs to the city. truth is most are in or closer to the city, but housing there is impossible. i think there needs to be a shift in ideals, and turn outer suburbs into economic centres themselves, no idea how that will happen or even what i'm talking about. ill go back to writing code and drinking brb.

[r2pi]

I dunno if I'd be as dramatic as to call myself a slave or to blame it on capitalism or any particular "group" of people. From what I can tell I don't think it's anything that organized or deliberate - I'm not an expert though so I can't go into detail about exactly why things are the way they are...

It's not a deliberate conspiracy. It's simply a consequence of people trying to maximise their own wealth with minimal effort, at the expense of others, with no consideration to the social costs of this. Aided and abetted by ridiculous government policy with regards to population and land release.

Capitalism - me me me. People are actually not like this by nature. Financial pressures on themselves drive them to be like this. And those financial pressures derive from other people being like this. A vicious cycle of people turning upon eachother for survival.

Lots of people do volunteer work regularly and even more pitch together in tough circumstances. But this doesn't pay the rent/mortgage or put food on the table - not to mention the raft of consumer crap most people are brainwashed into purchasing. So wage slavery and/or dog-eat-dog hoarding become the order of the day....

Edited August 24, 2012 by r2pi

[dbbard]

Anyone notice the housing price boom when John Howard was Prime Minister. Coincided with his children being of the age to be in ownership of their first properties and hence benefit from the price rise: i.e. his government created conditions to allow a housing price bubble.

Everyone who dreams of owning for the first time after this event is effectively priced out of the market!

[Moses]

here in adelaide seminars to teach you to invest in realestate were traced back to labour party funding and the rann gov sat on there ass and allowed the market to be over inflated by not outlawing fake bidders like every other state did. the fucker protected them and now most honest economic strategists will tell you the avge house in south oz is 100-150,000 over priced because of it.

[goneski]

I've been reading the articles on this site over the past few weeks...

http://www.whocrashedtheeconomy.com/

I have an uncle who is a real estate agent who also agrees the housing bubble is about to bust. The evidence of the initial stages of this is already apparent.

Good, I say. It's a fucking joke.. Little more than slavery.

I'm all for utilitarianism and (capable) people having to support / make themselves, but when you're giving so much of your

income away just to have somewhere to live, you soon realise how absurd the situation is.

Oh, and fuck the mining boom.

I want to see the whole thing come crashing down and watch as people frantically claw at their dreams

which slip away and the inevitable mass existential crisis that results.

Edited August 24, 2012 by SYNeR

[r2pi]

I'm all for utilitarianism and (capable) people having to support / make themselves, but when you're giving so much of your

income away just to have somewhere to live, you soon realise how absurd the situation is.

 

That's right - it's one thing to work to produce something or to pay for something someone else has worked to produce.

But no-one worked to produce land. You only pay because people with property rights people have the power to make you pay and exploit it to maximise their benefit and your loss.

Edited August 24, 2012 by r2pi

[gtarman]

I think we all agree in the big scheme of things - that there is a problem with housing affordability. We just disagree on some of the semantics...which is to be expected, and is also the reason why I rarely get into political discussions haha.

Peace.

[incognito]

Gtarman, I like the cut of yOur gib.

[goneski]

That's right - it's one thing to work to produce something or to pay for something someone else has worked to produce.

But no-one worked to produce land. You only pay because people with property rights people have the power to make you pay and exploit it to maximise their benefit and your loss.

 

And those with property rights are probably descended from white, British colonialists who stole the land in the first place.

[gtarman]

Thanks Incog. I like the swing of your boom haha

[incognito]

I like it definAtely adding that to my repertoire

I'm only buying some acreage so that I can get this farming out of

My veins. Blueberrys, rasberrys and I'm willing into my life at the moment. And lots of em. High demand, high yield, amazing wholesale price and not to labour intensive. Good export opportunities, and business possibilities.

It will also just serve as a base to keep all my stuff, have a dog, grow some fruit tress etc. I'm not looking to pay anymore than 160k, will probably sell my town block which will bring the loan down to around 120, which is doable.

I think owning land not to hard, just forget about city's and la-de-da areas. There's a high demand for qualified people in the country, so pull your finger out, do some tafe, get a good job, get a country style house with a big verandah, a rocking chair, a Vietnamese wife, plant some fruit trees, eat pho every morning for brekkie, grow old and die. Sounds shmick.

I'm also looking at it as an invesent for my child. The land will hopefully be worth a lot more by the time she gets her hands on it, so when I'm dead and gone she will have a property she can either live in or sell.

If I was to get in debt by more than 200k I just think I would be happy to rent for the rest of my life.

It's funny, I know some VERY wealthy aboriginal family's around here who OWN sooooo much land around here and further west. They just feedlot and make millions........

Edited August 26, 2012 by incognito

[dionysus]

in the 1850s, my (several times) great grandfather purchased a pub in what is now the CBD of geelong for 4 pound, including the land. i don't even think i could buy a minimum chips for 4 quid these days.

[goneski]

so pull your finger out...get a good job, get a country style house with a big verandah, a rocking chair, a Vietnamese wife, plant some fruit trees, eat pho every morning for brekkie, grow old and die. Sounds shmick.

I'm also looking at it as an invesent for my child. The land will hopefully be worth a lot more by the time she gets her hands on it, so when I'm dead and gone she will have a property she can either live in or sell.

 

Done and done.. But the country style house? This is where skilled people run into problems.

Skilled positions generally aren't anywhere near country style houses. Skilled positions tend to be in the big smoke.. And, unfortunately while housing closer to cities is more expensive,

it doesn't generally tend to be proportionate to the median income..

Not to mention housing is becoming stupidly expensive in areas like the Central West anyway (which I can gladly comment on, I have relatives who are real estate agents in the area)..

I fled Bathurst to study knowing that there was nothing there for me to do -- no way i'd consider an overpriced house there with pretty much no guarantee of a job.

Shit, a lot of people are saying there's no work in the area in general.

And whilst real estate has pretty much been a guaranteed investment for the past few decades, I wouldn't count on it much longer.. Japan's had their housing bust, same with the US.. There are plenty of signs Australia isn't far off.

It extends everywhere throughout the country and through all facets of the economy -- Australia is one of the most expensive countries to live in at the moment -- if not THE most expensive from some studies I've seen.

Edited August 26, 2012 by SYNeR

[incognito]

I'm talking skilled as in management, trades etc. there is a lot of growth agricultural industry west of Bathurst. Forget the towns u know about on the map. If u can dig solitude, and the rougher aspects of Aussie culture, then it will reward you with beauty, rich soils and plentiful )underground) water. I've fallen in love with the town cookamidgera. It's just so goddamn cute. Close to work and family I think I've closed in. 50 acre plus property's are to be had for 150- 180k. See a lot of the owners of these property's are now dying. There's bargains to be had ;)

Ps if u can afford 250k buy in parkes NOW. Ur house WILL pay itself off and then some. Apoth I'm talking to you ;) parkes is nuts, if your a young go getter with some caHones it's the place to be of you want to make great money. Mining madness and huge agribusiness which is trying to keep up if not overtake the mines in regards to pay rates an conditions to keep employees.

Edited August 26, 2012 by incognito