DualWieldRake Posted February 23, 2018 I browsed through the thread just now, all your posts i came across thusfar are links to either mass media or pseudoscience Let me educate you properly Sea levels are not rising (trust me i'd be the first to ring bells as i live below sea level) Polar bears are doing great And it hasnt been cold enough for natural ice skating tours where i'm from for 21 years Before that only 11, yet before that 22 Try prove other wise using scientific method Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waterboy 2.0 Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) You've proved my point... You don't read But keep on banging away Edited February 23, 2018 by waterboy 2.0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halcyon Daze Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) I know plenty of people from South Pacific Islands who are experiencing rising sea-levels, I even knew a guy from Tuvalu once and he showed me pics of the rising sea levels around his island. Most of the coconut palms on the beaches are being undermined, and washed into the sea, and that's one of their major food sources. They're rolling into the sea by the thousands. They've also planted tens of thousands of mangrove trees to mitigate the damage but it hasn't helped a bit. Hell, even florida is experiencing rising sea levels. Basically the closer you are to the equator, the greater the rise. Edited February 23, 2018 by Halcyon Daze 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waterboy 2.0 Posted February 23, 2018 Fake news of course Average sea level rises along the Dutch coast, hits highest level Society January 12, 2018 The average sea level along the Dutch coast was the highest ever recorded last year, according to marine research institute Deltares on Friday. Deltares scientists say sea level reached an average of 11 centimetres above NAP in 2017, two centimetres higher than the previous record in 2007. NAP stands for Normaal Amsterdams Peil or the normal water level in Amsterdam, which is slightly lower than sea level and is used as a base to measure how high or low water levels are. Sea level expert Fedor Baart said he is not surprised at the increase. ‘The level has been rising gradually by about 0.2 cm a year since 1890, due to the melting of the ice and the warming up of the ocean, he said. ‘That means you would expect the sea level to be higher every year. The more interesting question is actually why the sea level didn’t rise over the last 10 years.’ There are, Baart says, two main causes. Firstly there have been fewer storm surges recently – in 2007 there were four. ‘Severe storms lasting a few days push up the water on the coast by more than a metre, and that is seen as a rise in the annual average of one centimetre,’ Baart said. Tides ‘Last year, again there were again several storm surges. In late October 2017, the water in Eemshaven was 4 metres above NAP, more than 2 metres above the tidal level,’ he said. Another cause of an elevated water level is the long-term tidal cycle. Every 18.6 years, the sea level rises and falls by about 2 centimetres. The last peak was in 2004, and the level is now rising again to the next peak in early 2023, Baart said. Some 26% of the Netherlands is below sea level and a further 29% is susceptible to river flooding. The Dutch coast is protected by a complicated system of dykes, seawalls and sluices built after the devastating floods of 1953 which left over 1,800 people dead. http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2018/01/average-sea-level-rises-along-the-dutch-coast-hits-highest-level/ 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halcyon Daze Posted February 23, 2018 It's been going on for years and it's no joke. They are also having their scarce ground-water supplies spoiled by salt water infiltration 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sagiXsagi Posted February 23, 2018 watertrade, you seriously didn't realise why the dude put the pics with the weeds? maybe I can understand where he is coming from, we both cynics... I have a saying when people around me worry too much.. I say why worry if you cant do anything about it?? hashlings>> WHAT FUCKING MASS DESTRUCTION?? LOL humans and cows (and chickens and meat animals) are the most successful animals on the planet (well we are not exactly sure how well they feel, but they're plenty) if either is extincts of reduced to a very small amount it will be a blessing for the earth, what part of this you dont understand? you claim at the begining you dont understand what I mean by ideology and religious stance to any matter, but by the end of your post you mention anarcho-primitivism, as an ideology. So you understand what I mean by ideology, and no I am not an anarcho-primitivist, I like civilisation and culture, that who we are, I just dont glorify it.. and you deny to watch the video... what?? this is one of the top if not the top stand up comedian of all time!! PS: Hey I am not saying there is no problem.. I am saying why get overly anxious about it? I claim you are into it because you like the aesthetic of it, maybe like Raul said, you feel like enviroment warriors, maybe you feel you are actually doing something about it... Or maybe you like the whole mass-extinction tale, in the same way apocalyptic and post apocalyptic films are really commercial nowadays... Me? I'd rather read about the many new data coming from paleoanthropology, which studies the nature and history of us sapiens and homo and relatives... or try to create cactus intergeneric hybrid cactus . TONs of REAL things are out there to be read and seen ... I consider my approach cynic, nature loving and actually pretty optimist. I consider yours more humanist than ecologist thus an ideology not a true science. Also yours is pretty depressing and pessimist. PS: I am pretty sure the sea level is rising at the moment. there are several hot spots that are in 'danger' in the mediteranean , like f.e. Italian city of Venice.. Also greek city of Thessaloniki... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DualWieldRake Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Halcyon Daze said: I know plenty of people from South Pacific Islands who are experiencing rising sea-levels, I even knew a guy from Tuvalu once and he showed me pics of the rising sea levels around his island. Most of the coconut palms on the beaches are being undermined, and washed into the sea, and that's one of their major food sources. They're rolling into the sea by the thousands. They've also planted tens of thousands of mangrove trees to mitigate the damage but it hasn't helped a bit. Hell, even florida is experiencing rising sea levels. Basically the closer you are to the equator, the greater the rise. It's called tides, and erosion. Show me the island that sank. Also show me how far into the water houses used to stand on the floridan coastline These little sandbanks moving around do not show sea level rise Edited February 23, 2018 by DualWieldRake Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halcyon Daze Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) This is where you're reasoning is falling short. Coconuts don't grow below the tide line. The tide line has risen and is now eroding fully grown trees. You see the ones up the back, still in great condition, they will be gone in 5 - 10 years too. That's what's been happening for a couple of decades now. One by one they go. It' undeniable proof that seas are rising, What was your proof again? It would seem we have another case of 'none so blind as those who will not see'. -There is no hope for this one... Edited February 23, 2018 by Halcyon Daze 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DualWieldRake Posted February 23, 2018 12 minutes ago, waterboy 2.0 said: Fake news of course Average sea level rises along the Dutch coast, hits highest level Society January 12, 2018 The average sea level along the Dutch coast was the highest ever recorded last year, according to marine research institute Deltares on Friday. Deltares scientists say sea level reached an average of 11 centimetres above NAP in 2017, two centimetres higher than the previous record in 2007. NAP stands for Normaal Amsterdams Peil or the normal water level in Amsterdam, which is slightly lower than sea level and is used as a base to measure how high or low water levels are. Sea level expert Fedor Baart said he is not surprised at the increase. ‘The level has been rising gradually by about 0.2 cm a year since 1890, due to the melting of the ice and the warming up of the ocean, he said. ‘That means you would expect the sea level to be higher every year. The more interesting question is actually why the sea level didn’t rise over the last 10 years.’ There are, Baart says, two main causes. Firstly there have been fewer storm surges recently – in 2007 there were four. ‘Severe storms lasting a few days push up the water on the coast by more than a metre, and that is seen as a rise in the annual average of one centimetre,’ Baart said. Tides ‘Last year, again there were again several storm surges. In late October 2017, the water in Eemshaven was 4 metres above NAP, more than 2 metres above the tidal level,’ he said. Another cause of an elevated water level is the long-term tidal cycle. Every 18.6 years, the sea level rises and falls by about 2 centimetres. The last peak was in 2004, and the level is now rising again to the next peak in early 2023, Baart said. Some 26% of the Netherlands is below sea level and a further 29% is susceptible to river flooding. The Dutch coast is protected by a complicated system of dykes, seawalls and sluices built after the devastating floods of 1953 which left over 1,800 people dead. http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2018/01/average-sea-level-rises-along-the-dutch-coast-hits-highest-level/ Yet another main stream article you link that says really nothing and makes no point. I used to work in a company that tricked people into believing the netherlands was gonna flood to make money, i bet you are into the same line of work Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DualWieldRake Posted February 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, Halcyon Daze said: This is where you're reasoning is falling short. Coconuts don't grow below the tide line. The tide line has risen and is now eroding fully grown trees. You see the ones up the back, still in great condition, they will be gone in 5 - 10 years too. That's what's been happening for a couple of decades now. One by one they go. It' undeniable proof that seas are rising, What was your proof again? It would seem we have another case of 'none so blind as those who will not see'. -There is no hope for this one... Nah bro, the island may be sinking Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waterboy 2.0 Posted February 23, 2018 You've got no cred mate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halcyon Daze Posted February 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, DualWieldRake said: Nah bro, the island may be sinking Like your 'Theories' LOL 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DualWieldRake Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) Haha you must be trolling. Even the most hardcore alarmist scientists only measure a few centimeters rise in the last 100 years.... These islands must be experiencing some localized elevated water levels Edited February 23, 2018 by DualWieldRake Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThunderIdeal Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) There were some islands that were expected to go under were recently photographed again and found to have grown. Dunno. Seabeds can change elevation. Sea level, i dunno. Its not a direct measure of global warming. Volcanos have been discovered under the ice that werent thought to exist in the past. Complex stuff. Black and white doesnt help. Edited February 23, 2018 by ThunderIdeal Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DualWieldRake Posted February 23, 2018 You are right, it's hard to measure. They are not able to find this dramatic rise and neither am i experiencing it Sinking sandbanks on the other hand is a real thing The whole climate deal is about possible future effects, now everybody jumps on the hype train and starts screaming we are going under Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crop Posted February 23, 2018 23 hours ago, DualWieldRake said: What made you change your mind? It's all well and good to think about the Earth rebelling against us, to kill off the parasites we have become. I have no doubt rising CO2 levels is a beautiful way to do that. As the levels rise animals get sick and die, while plant growth increases, until it swings back again. It has certainly happened before. Mate eventually you have to grow out of your teenage angst, and realise your one of those animals that has to go through that sick and dying part. Besides I think we are so insanely stupid that we might just push it too far, past the point it can be fixed. Our atmosphere is already leaking into space. It's feasible that damaging our atmosphere could increase the rate of leakage, and that shit is permanent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DualWieldRake Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) Teenage angst lol, i'm not worried at all. You are the one here saying the world is gonna end. So atmosphere leaking into space? Man thats some baloney, you read too much science fiction Theorethically dragons from another planet could land and eat us...just that it's not happening. Edited February 23, 2018 by DualWieldRake 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crop Posted February 23, 2018 17 hours ago, hashslingr said: Absolutely, there's heaps of ways agriculture can be improved. Vegetarian diets have loads of problems, but not everyone's a primary producer and not everyone can influence the agricultural industry. Mate My problem is not necessarily with what you are saying, it's that you feel you need to say it. Just to be clear, I am not anti-vegetarian. I have been a vegetarian and probably will be again, but there is so much bullshit around it. Extremest groups like PETA and their ilk, spend fortunes on so called 'studies' and reports in an attempt to prove farming animals and eating meat is bad. All this material is getting lapped up by some of the most environmentally conscious people on the planet. People that could be helping come up with solutions, if they weren't stupid enough to let them selves be led down the garden path. Sure many people eat too much meat, but the problem it is how the farming is done, not whether you eat meat or not. In fact to grow organic vegetables you need animal products. An inconvenient truth most Vegans ignore. Sorry I'm not sure if that is the right word. Can you still call your self a Vegan if your food is produced using animal products? We most assuredly can influence the agricultural industry. Just imagine what could be achieved, if as much effort was put into promoting good farming practice, as is Vegetarianism. Of course the big industrial farming companies don't give a shit which side of the fence you sit. They keep make money, they even get tax concessions on their donations to PETA. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crop Posted February 23, 2018 35 minutes ago, DualWieldRake said: Teenage angst lol, i'm not worried at all. Mate I was answering your question and talking about my teenage angst, not assuming to know your particular problem. 36 minutes ago, DualWieldRake said: So atmosphere leaking into space? Man thats some baloney, you read too much science fiction Your a funny bugger! It sounds like the concept is new to you, despite it being first discovered nearly 40 years ago. Yet still, is there really not enough wonder in you, for you to spend a minute looking it up, before you comment? Or perhaps it's just the sad, dark thrill of being contrary? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Inyan Posted February 23, 2018 Y'all fools better recognize. And nobody can say we didn't get what we deserve. This man is genius. Making Merica Great Again! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DualWieldRake Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Crop said: Mate I was answering your question and talking about my teenage angst, not assuming to know your particular problem. Your a funny bugger! It sounds like the concept is new to you, despite it being first discovered nearly 40 years ago. Yet still, is there really not enough wonder in you, for you to spend a minute looking it up, before you comment? Or perhaps it's just the sad, dark thrill of being contrary? Sorry guy, i guess that should have been obvious. Atmosphere leaking is like saying the sea is evaporating Evaporation is taking place but it's not a big deal Edited February 23, 2018 by DualWieldRake 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nothinghead Posted February 23, 2018 @sagiXsagi If you're talking about mass extinction, there’s plenty of information on it that’s easy to find. There are books, and to stay more up to date there are lots of research articles that are open access. The idea is that scientists like paleontologists and biologists of various stripes have looked at the fossil record of the five previous mass extinction events and then reviewed modern data to compare extinction rates. There seems to be a consensus that we have a “current extinction crisis.” In fact, for people at the cutting edge of this kind of research the question isn’t really “whether” but rather things like “at what rates” and “at what severity.” Here’s a bit of an abstract from an open access article you can easily find and read for yourself: “We find that the rate of population loss in terrestrial vertebrates is extremely high—even in “species of low concern.” In our sample, comprising nearly half of known vertebrate species, 32% (8,851/27,600) are decreasing; that is, they have decreased in population size and range. In the 177 mammals for which we have detailed data, all have lost 30% or more of their geographic ranges and more than 40% of the species have experienced severe population declines (>80% range shrinkage). Our data indicate that beyond global species extinctions Earth is experiencing a huge episode of population declines and extirpations, which will have negative cascading consequences on ecosystem functioning and services vital to sustaining civilization. We describe this as a “biological annihilation” to highlight the current magnitude of Earth’s ongoing sixth major extinction event.” Obviously the extinction event isn’t affecting controlled populations (except bees and some others) generally - it doesn’t mean that the cat in your apartment or dog in your yard is going to fall victim to the event next week. It doesn't mean that the number of cows in a factory farm is going to suddenly decline. It’s ecosystemic decline. I get what you mean about a reduction in humans being good for the planet in your view, that’s why I mentioned anarcho-primativism. And I know what you mean by ideology, I’m not sure where I said that I didn't. I’m not an environmental warrior, by any means. But I respect the people who are. I’m responding to what's going on in this thread because of that, not out of any sense of self-pride. I don’t think anything I do has a global, or even significant local impact on environment. But I don’t assume that because I’m not doing anything meaningful that no-one else is. Plenty of people are making a difference in small ways, and plenty of people are trying to do something on a large scale. Good on them, I think they’re great for having a go at a massive and complex set of problems, and I think they're pretty noble for giving up the things they had to give up to do that. If they get some good feelings as a bit of compensation for doing it, it doesn't bother me at all. But yeah, I'd rather discuss the ecological side of things, I agree with you that they're more interesting than the philosophical problems and the humanist stuff like Harari's boo So for instance, talking about places like Tuvalu, Dualwieldrake is doubtful about the fact of rising ocean levels because he says much of the discussion of that is future-focused, and that it can be difficult to see sea-level rise in real time (particularly so if you live somewhere that has a system of canals designed to mitigate coastal erosion). But there's plenty of measurements being taken, and data being analysed, to assess what's happening with problems like sea level rise. Scientists have identified, as Halcyon points out, that ocean level rise is not globally averaged. They've also identified ocean rise as "temporally variate," meaning that the rise isn't linear across time, tides may be higher and cause more erosion at different times of the year and in different years. They've modelled (locally, global models are still pretty heavy) how this is linked to variations in seasonal patterns and changes at Convergence Zones (again, as Halcyon points out, this is something those nearer to the equator will be more affected by). They've found changes in currents and wave climatology due to various anthropogenic factors and variations in sea surface temperatures which affects things like reefs, which again affect wave climatology and coastlines. These are all things that are being observed and measured, it isn't speculation. It's also not straightforward. Quantitative analyses of central Pacific island geography over a period of 20-60 years has shown that despite sea level rise average of 2mm per year that many island have actually increased in size - not what you'd expect intuitively from sea level rise. Instead of getting uniformly smaller in size, coastlines changed and "inland" lagoons increased in size. In the western Pacific rise has been measured over 8 years (until 2001) at 30 mm per year, accompanied by falls in the eastern Pacific (10mm y). More generally in the Pacific, tide gauge record analysis has found that "the variance of monthly averaged sea-level after 1970 is about twice that before 1970." You can read simplified information on all this kind of stuff in the IPCC reports. On page 3 the (b) graph shows globally averaged sea level rise. You might want to check that out @DualWieldRake. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DualWieldRake Posted February 23, 2018 They are lying. How did they measure it and what's the margin of error in this 2mm The title of your document reads Summary for Policymakers It's not science it's propaganda Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waterboy 2.0 Posted February 23, 2018 You still trapping off in here Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
