Be civil or leave

[Torsten]

this forum has evolved over more than a decade because we don't allow things to get out of hand and because we enforce a certain level of respect and civility. The nature of people is to push boundaries, even if the space beyond those boundaries does not actually serve anyone well. For example, we did just fine without the word cunt for most of the last decade, but then one member feels it needs to be introduced into every sentence. It was comical and we let it go, but a year or two later we are now at the point where cunt is an apparently acceptable way to refer to each other regardless of whether in jest or in anger. Just think for a moment how offensive that word actually is to some people - like 50% of the population. Do you call your girlfriend or wife a cunt and still expect respect? So the solution is that we are going to be much stricter about enforcing civility and respect. get used to it fast or collect points.

The other problem is one that is inherent to forums and is unlikely to ever go away. Trolls, pseudotrolls, and people whose primary mode of operation here is to push the boundaries. we set boundaries very wide because we want to allow as much freedom as possible, but this must be balanced with the needs of others, especially those who are not so comfortable being that close to the edge. So while it might look Ok for psylo and incognito to abuse each other, when either one of them takes that tone to others who are not comfortable with it then this is a failure by them and by the forums as a whole. We have instances of people too scared to make posts because of how a handful of people might react. That's schoolyard dynamics which we are not going to condone any longer. The moderators are going to be a lot tougher in intervening in these things. if you think that you are safe from penalties just because you are not breaking any rules, but you are constantly pushing the boundaries, then think again. The mods have the freedom to intervene where needed to create a safe, civil, and constructive environment. It's a nature of the beast that these things swing back and forth from time to time, so here is a notice that we have peaked at the impolite end and that the pendulum has been pushed to the other side.

Rudeness is often a result of laziness. We love passionate discussion on this forum and the fact we have such diverse backgrounds will always provide fertile ground for such discussions. but if you can't say it with respect then don't say it at all. Don't be so lazy. Make use of the english language to get your point across without oversimpifying, generalising or insulting. You may think it is fine to use common racist or derogatory terms in your every day conversations, but that is your choice. On this forum you will not use such language because you simply do not know who might be reading the post. I have no problem if this is setting the bar too high for you and you need to leave. We're better off with fewer people who can respect each other and the wider community than to accommodate people who bring their intolerance to this place. I have tried to be a little more flexible with this when it comes to very common terminology, but it just never stops there. the nature of pushing the boundaries means it always keeps going. So we go back to our original boundaries as of today.

Psylo has been suspended for a month for the way he communicated another member on chat and for the way he hounded chef at a time when we were trying to get answers. When he returns he will be more considerate of others and will refrain from constantly pushing the boundaries, or we will part permanently.

Problem threads will be cleaned up and rule breakers will be given points. There is no justification for any poster to break the rules, even if someone else broke the rules before them [that's what the report button is for]. Own your mess and move on.

[incognito]

Fair call. I agree. I apologise for being a jerk.

[ballzac]

Sounds like a good plan. Internet fora being very public places, it's important to be as respectful as possible to avoid any confusion, even if you mean no harm. Sometimes I think the funniest comedy is bordering on the offensive, but what tends to go on here in that way is puerile and pointless most of the time. I don't think we have any Ricky Gervais or Jimmy Carrs around here. Besides, if someone wants to post some really clever comedy, post it in the creativity section or videotape it and post it in the youtube thread. If you're just responding to another member in some thread, attacking them in some way, it's most likely off-topic and not necessary, even if you think it's in good fun.

By the way, I think saying that 50% of the population find 'that word' offensive is a huge overestimate. I think it's more like a very vocal 10%. Yes, my girlfriend and I call each other that all the time, whether we're just joking around or arguing, and neither of us is offended by it. But, in a public forum, language that, in general, has a high capacity to offend is really out of place.

Germain Greer makes a good case for the word "vagina" being more offensive than "cunt":

 

[Torsten]

By the way, I think saying that 50% of the population find 'that word' offensive is a huge overestimate. I think it's more like a very vocal 10%. Yes, my girlfriend and I call each other that all the time, whether we're just joking around or arguing, and neither of us is offended by it. But, in a public forum, language that, in general, has a high capacity to offend is really out of place.

a word is only as offensive as it is in the perspective of the subject and object. While I find no word in itself offensive, I find concepts and processes offensive. Some words represent such processes and concepts which associates the word with the offence. The former is the reason why I had no problem with the word cunt being used here in a joking manner, but now that it is being used for a particular purpose of being offensive, it has become a problem.

Cunt is still regarded as the most offensive word in the english language, especially in the USA. Considering that nearly 50% of the australian online adult population still think fuck is offensive [an online poll a few years ago during a high profile police insult case] it is safe to assume that cunt is a few percent higher.

see also this appraisal of offensive words in broadcasting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2005/nov/21/broadcasting.uknews

[chnt]

very similar to ballz in this instance with that word. me and fairy say it all the time, it's a word like any other and we are two intelligent and creative people talking to each other, capable of deeper comprehension than that of ACA/today tonight antics. reinforcing the taboo around the word serves to keep this society a male dominant one.

i'm definitely guilty of doing some of the things mentioned in the OP, pushing boundaries, making juvenile posts, doing a whole bunch of shit... i apologise for things which may have caused offence at a personal level (ie directing 'offensive' words at people, whether in jest or in an endearing way or what ever...) while i may view this behaviour in one way, one of sociability, rapport building, completely meaningless or otherwise... it may not be the same for others, and for this reason my behaviour can create a negative environment for those people, one in which they may not feel comfortable in being a part of. i truly apologise for this, i want this to be a safe place for everyone... maybe a big factor in this is that sarcasm doesn't translate well through text and sarcasm has become a large part of how i interact with others... what ever the reason i will try to be a good boy. stress is fucked and i dont want to create any needless stress for anyone, particularly the mods.

pushing boundaries i didn't think was wrong, i view it as trying to raise the collective vibrational energy, raising the bar of awareness, creating understanding, that type of thing... but again i dont want to cause shit with the mods, so please help me out in knowing what is and isn't ok in this regard. i can be very passionate and i love passionate discussion perhaps i'll try to chill out a little more...

i like and have had a lot of fun with many people here, but i can definitely be a douche bag too, please let me know if you feel i've been a douche towards you and i'll personally apologise.

let me start by apologising to reptyle, jabez, bulls on parade and incognito. i've had fun conversing with all you guys.

was it bulls that started the whole cold shower thing? cause that has become a part of my lifestyle so i owe a big thank you for that.

[chilli]

As desensitized as I am to the word 'cunt,' I'd say at least 50% of Australians do find it offensive. It is definitely becoming more acceptable, even in the US there have been a spate of movies using it recently, even from a very young girl (in Kick-Ass). I think it's good for people not to get hung up on words, but I guess I try to avoid swearing too much when I'm around people who might find it offensive. I think it's much easier for a woman to be radical about this, and I think it's only if women claim the word for common use that it will really catch on.

I haven't been offended by anything anyone has said, I don't like irrationality and I don't like bullying, but bullying can be done by one person or it can be done by a bunch of people. Psylo and I have had our differences, but personally, from what little I have observed, I think he started to cop a lot of shit from people in subtle ways a little while ago and I think his posting style has become more confrontational and defensive as a result.

I have seen it happen a lot on internet forums where people acting like goody-two-shoes who think they speak for the whole community, start badmouthing an individual, then others join in, that individual reacts and then gets suspended. Fair enough if they broke the rules, but I think if we are going to get tougher on people for that, there should also be a commensurate awareness and prevention or punishment for the more subtle, manipulative forms of bullying that often lead to it.

Edited June 3, 2012 by chilli

[space cadet swami]

I personally am glad to see the swing away from such language. On the job site I would expect it, but on a public forum I find it excessive. I think the question might be more like, "Would you call your mother a c**t ?". I know it is just a word, but we must remember that words hold a certain amount of power. We must wield our power with more thought towards our fellow human beings. Remember a guy buy the name of "Adolf" who started out with only words. We all have feelings, some are more sensitive then others, let's show compassion & take into account the feelings of our fellow SABers.

Peace & well being my friends.

[Stillman]

I called Psylo the word in question and I still think he is one but I apologise to the forum if anyone found it offensive.

edit

I think I might just stay clear of the non gardening/ trading areas on the forum.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Stillman

[Jox]

@ SC,

I call my mother that all the time(if the shoe fits)

Seriously though, everyone has a different opinion & I always try to keep that in mind when I'm around people I don't know/ groups of people.

I have a great relationship with my family & am very lucky I can be myself/speak my mind around them.

If my mum can't babysit for me next friday then shes a C##T & I will happily tell her so!(Luv ya anyways mum )

This is a great place & have learnt quite a lot, look forward to participating a lot more.

Cheers

jox

[whitewind]

Yesterday was well out of hand, and while I felt partly to blame for trying to deal with it (and failing miserably) come today I feel a bit differently. Stillman, Incognito and myself have all apologised to Psylo and everyone else for behaving aggressively, whereas our apologies were not even acknowledged by Psylo - he just kept hammering on, being offensive and not taking note of anyone else's position in the slightest. I felt like he was testing the community - and the mods (pushing the boundaries?) almost in order to get himself banned. Well, I think he got off lightly, there have been many occasions where he has upset people and yesterday he forced people off that thread for being so rude. That's outrageous.

I feel sad about the whole thing, personally, a few months ago I was going to contact Psylo about bush regeneration ( I seem to remember him claiming back then that he was deeply involved in that) even though yesterday he was stating he was an accountant or something (both? who knows), I have realised since then that trusting people on this forum really isn't as straightforward as it seems, and he was the one who was claiming Cameron / Chef was a liar.

Chnt, we have been in contact and I like you, but I think you are being a bit kind in backing up Psylo, there have been several occasions where I have tried to engage but he seems to write only in terms of aggressive statements, which is okay but not very in-depth and ultimately very frustrating.

I'm not happy with yesterday, I felt dirty afterwards and there was a time when I was feeling very disinclined to come back here. Very, very sad.

[dionysus]

^ whitewind, further psylo bashing wasn't nescicary. nor is acting righteous, despite how you 'feel' today you are almost totally to blame for yesterday, for you cast the first stone (even though it was only pebble sized).

[whitewind]

^ whitewind, further psylo bashing wasn't nescicary. nor is acting righteous, despite how you 'feel' today you are almost totally to blame for yesterday, for you cast the first stone (even though it was only pebble sized).

 

Allright no more from me on this issue.

[Jox]

There maybe a fine line when it comes down to telling outright lies & just dribbling crap(thinking your funny).

Saying "I'm the black guy on the train", "that is me in my avitar", maybe that's just someone dribbling crap!

To me there lies just like cams so called army girlfriends broken leg!

Around your family & friends, be yourself they probably get the sarcasm.

But on a public forum were people don't really don't know how you are, it comes across as lies/bullshit!

BACK TO THE GARDEN!!!

[nabraxas]

I have realised since then that trusting people on this forum really isn't as straightforward as it seems

i disagree. i treat people on forums the same as people i meet in the big room.

Trust people until they give you a reason not to.

[Torsten]

Jox, I am not sure if I understand this right, but just wanted to let you know that it's not that we simply accepted cam's behaviour. we were trying to work out the details, but found ourselves in a situation where psylo made it more attractive for him to disappear than to face the rest of the issue. That's why there had to be consequencs. That does not detract in any way from the consequences cam's actions would have had for him. And you're right that lying is obviously not acceptable.

[myco]

edit

I think I might just stay clear of the non gardening/ trading areas on the forum.

 

I'm with ya there

actually any thread that starts to turn ugly I'm gonna just stop reading and posting in from now on

I'm pissed about it all now cos now I have a warn point for being racist when I wasn't even trying to be racist

And now it's posted in the thread that I made racist comments

When it wasn't intended as a racist comment

[space cadet swami]

Just to satisfy everyones curiosity cams girlfriend did break her ankle...don't assume anything when it comes to cyberspace.

EDIT: Can no one see the irony with cam's girlfriends broken ankle & psylo's mates broken ankles...Mmmm

Edited June 4, 2012 by space cadet 101

[dionysus]

"Like sands through the hourglass..."

twists and turns with every post, where's my popcorn!

[Torsten]

only the member and the mods can see warn points. It's a reminder for us so if we see similar behaviour we don't give the benefit of doubt. It doesn't really mean much more than that. And after 12 months you can apply to the mod who gave it to you to have it removed [which is pretty likely if you haven't added any new ones of a similar nature].

[mauve]

Thank you Torsten for this !

Frankly i was feeling less and less attracted to this forum because of the general tone: it was looking more and more like the shroomery. It's not that i am offended by the trashy words, just that i don't like the adolescent and immature tone of those words.

The choice of words does reflects on you, people: until yesterday i was convinced that the use of the c. word was typically australian !

[Jox]

Torsten,

Sorry if it looked as though I was having a go at Cam, was not meant that way at all.

Ive just seen a lot of psylos comments about Cam & the so called lies & was just pointing out that I see psylo telling everyone "he was the black guy"ect. I can see he's just f##ken around but when I first joined this site it made me wonder can I really trust anyone? As my time here continues I would like to think I'm working out the jokers & the genuine hardcore gardeners. I think all of these different people are what make this site great.

All I was getting at was what some members might think its funny to tell bullshit stories/jokes. But these stories/jokes might come across as deceit & lies to others.

I personally don't have a problem with any members on this site(I don't think )

Cheers

jox

[space cadet swami]

As my time here continues I would like to think I'm working out the jokers & the genuine hardcore gardeners.

 

What about the gardeners who are just a joke, I still can't seem to grow an Acacia obtusifolia...lol.

[Max Cady]

Any other taboo words? or just cunt?

[watertrade]

Any other taboo words? or just cunt?

 

There are lots of naughty words you wouldn't use in general conversation with strangers. Cunt, fuck. Just two.

But the point here, to clarify for others (because I think you understand fully) is that these words are reserved for extreme circumstances, alien landings, tidal waves etc. - And are not appropriate for addressing other members here and in general conversation. It’s not that anyone is really offended, it’s just not necessary

Edited June 4, 2012 by watertrade

[qualia]

slightly side-notish, i used to work in a place where one of the supervisors almost every second word was fuck. i thought it was very unprofessional, even a little off-putting. i don't really have that delicate sensibilities but i thought it was meant to be a professional workplace (it was an office/IT setting, not a building site or something). anyway as far as this forum goes i don't really care, just wanted to share my little story.....