Lophs into greenhouse over winter? Artificial light?

[Goldtop]

Winters definitely on its way and im getting a bit concerned for my plants. Does anyone know if grafted lophs, compared to seed grown plants, can withstand a colder temp? Ive got a fair few plants to care for and not enough space for a bigger hotbox. Ill just have to pick out the best ones.

And ive put a couple grafts and other trichs into the ground, should i try and make a cover around them, or will they be alright over winter?

Im also thinking, should i put a grow light into the greenhouse (its only a small box) overnight? And then let the winter sun do some work during the day. Do they need a very long dark period, if any?

Thanks everyone

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

I think you've got two choices here, either a) winter it outdoors as long as the temps don't go below freezing, its advisable not to water if wintering outdoors and unsure about watering.. the loph will survive without being watered over winter no problems..

If there indoors under fluoros during the night then you may be able to water/fert and keep them in veg growth depending on daylengths/temps etcs... I do mine under 20hrs fluoro and they go hard, seedlings, grafts, rootstock and all.. temps are between 20-25C and 75-100% humidity during this indoor winter phase then they are weened outdoors for spring and summer.. I Just bought mine in now temps are dipping 9 and 10C ay night.

Hope this helps

Dude

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

I should also mention older specimens are in an approximate 25-40% humidity environment, the above

[Goldtop]

Sweet, thanks d00d. I wasnt looking forward to the season but now it doesnt sound too bad, hopefully theyll push out some mad growth up until spring Plus it will be outdoors during the day, ill just have to cover it over at night when the light is on.

Do you think covering the inground plants over, and keeping some warmth in. Will do any good in terms of growth? Or is it all a matter of the light intensity? Cheers bud

[Evil Genius]

Some things to consider: If you choose a cold hardy cactus as grafting stock, the ability of the Loph to withstand cold will be improved greatly. Generally, i recommend Trichocereus Spachianus and Trichocereus Candicans because they tolerate low freezing temperatures if kept dry. San Pedro tolerates low frost as well. Soil should be almost purely mineralistic because humous poses a constant risk for infections.

Lophophora flowers better and is hardier if you create the same conditions as in nature. Means colder nights and drought periods over a dark winter. You can successfully grow Lophs inside with artifical light and heating whole year round but im no friend of it because it oftenly creates weak plants. And i dont mean this in a "potency" way...i just mean not as strong as in nature. There are people who are really good at it and i dont really have a problem with them doing it because there are countless roads that lead to rome but its just not for me. Most experienced cactus growers try to mimique growth conditions in habitats if plants are difficult. Its programmed in their genes, the same way an icebear isnt really built to be in the mohave desert. Over time, he would probably adapt somehow and might even be able to get bigger and stronger as in its natural hunting ground at a certain point but that doesnt necessarily mean that he would be healthier as well. Growing plants is an art. If you are good at what your doing, you will get good results no matter what. So just try what is best for your growing style. Everyone has his own personal flaws and cultivation problems and you´ll need to find the method that avoids your most important sticking points. If its indoor growing over winter, then so be it.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Evil Genius

[Goldtop]

Thanks for that EG, i didnt know how each stock can effect the graft, very cool stuff man

Do you feel the same if putting grafts under lights through winter, and keeping the seed grown as nature intended? Grafting seems very alien like to me, this would be a matter of how much the stock can adapt and grow wouldnt it? Trichs being originated around the equator, do you know if they need the same winter snap?

Still i get your point, the earths works for a reason, there would most likely be a downside to fucking with the plants seasonal habits

[Evil Genius]

Most cacti, especially Trichos wont flower if they dont have a cold and dark season with mild freezing temperatures. Mild, not hardcore frost. Most cacti tolerate short time frost spikes very well.

Because of the influence of the stock on the graft: Eriocereus Jusbertii increases ability to flower for about 300%. Not sure if people here know this already so use this to your Advantage. This is tested, no speculation btw.

Though i like growing my plants as natural as i can, I definately use the Advantage that chemicals and techniques like grafting have. I would be crazy if i dont as the benefit outweighs my personal growing taste in an extraordinary way. In nature, you need ten thousands of seedlings for one adult plant. No need to mimique that. Grafting makes difficult plants flower within a very short period of time and anyone who is interested in some serious growing should learn it.

[IndianDreaming]

Eriocereus Jusbertii - I don't suppose you'd have a seed or 2 spare for this one...? Flowering is a yes in my books and anything to help in that direction is a +++

@Goldtop - It felt quite alien taking a razor blade to a little cactus head! And they call it the 'Psycho0'! I think the name is better suited to the one weilding the razor!

[Evil Genius]

Gotta check my seed collection but i have thousands of seedlings and should get seeds from them at one point or another. Will let people here know when i have some. Its a great great grafting stock.

[niggles]

Eriocereys Jusbertii... Ill have to keep my eyes out for that one - Id never had that snippet of information before!

Thanks EG.

[Evil Genius]

Another interesting fact is that you only need one mature Eriocereus to produce seeds because you can produce Eriocereus seeds with Echinopsis pollen as father. So by sourcing one large specimen of eriocereus, you can get a very reliable grafting stock supply. You can surely graft on Pereskiopsis as well but Eriocereus is more tolerant of the cold.

[gilligan]

Is that the Harissa jusbertii, EG? I've heard of this used as a grafting stock, not known of it as eriocereus?

[GoOnThen]

I read about Ericocereus jusbertii before and that is a great stock but I didn't know about the effect on flowering interesting thanks EG

The problem that I ran into when I did a google search for au only there where only a few hits mostly on forums so I presumed it is quite rare here. It has been on my list of plants to find.for a while now.

If any one has a plant I would love a piece that I could propagate.

Cheers

Got

[GoOnThen]

Hey gilligan

I have seen it called Harissa jusbertii a lot on other forums and from what I have read it is also called cereus jusbertii

Cheers Got

[BBGONE]

Talking about Loph's flowering, there's no need to do something special.

They flower everywhere and always provided light and nutrients for them (it flowers now, and two weeks before, and already has fruit from previous flowering).

Especially, what i would like to mention , they dont like to much light and shrivel if to much light and loose their color.

I tried with flouros (110 W, four 6500 K T5 tubes), if i draw them to close to lights then growth stops (5- 7 cm from lights),

when i put them farther (13- 15 cm) they look well.

I tested with luxmeter , optimal is 30K lux.

Now i changed lights to Aqua Medic Grow Plant fluros (more pronounced red and blue spectrum). They are only 2 days under them.

So dunno will they be better or not than simple 6500 K Osram Fluoros.

Edited May 13, 2012 by BBGONE

[zelly]

Six of my biggest baddest arios are grafted onto Harrisia Jusbertii & yeah, they flower like mad.

http://www.shaman-au...ndpost&p=257958

[Evil Genius]

Yes its been placed under Harrisia now. Its also very usuable for other cacti. Its not that hard to bring a Loph to flower at an early age. Its true potential lies as grafting stock for Tricho Hybrids, Echinopsis and other cacti that need many years to flower. I´ve seen Areole Grafts with only one little Pup putting out some flowers on Eriocereus Jusbertii already. Really a great stock!

Edit: Badass pics, Zelly!

Edited May 13, 2012 by Evil Genius

[Sallubrious]

Talking about Loph's flowering, there's no need to do something special.

They flower everywhere and always provided light and nutrients for them (it flowers now, and two weeks before, and already has fruit from previous flowering).

Especially, what i would like to mention , they dont like to much light and shrivel if to much light and loose their color.

I tried with flouros (110 W, four 6500 K T5 tubes), if i draw them to close to lights then growth stops (5- 7 cm from lights),

when i put them farther (13- 15 cm) they look well.

I tested with luxmeter , optimal is 30K lux.

Now i changed lights to Aqua Medic Grow Plant fluros (more pronounced red and blue spectrum). They are only 2 days under them.

So dunno will they be better or not than simple 6500 K Osram Fluoros.

 

The 6500k tubes seem to do well for leafy plants but I think it is a bit unbalanced for anything that is intended to flower.

With the 6500k tubes they miss out the red to far red part of the spectrum that is needed to produce the Emerson effect which can really boost their growth rates.

The addition of a warm white tube to the cool whites can help balance out the spectrum.

I've never seen the T5 tubes in warm white (I haven't looked too hard mind you) the lowest temp I've seen was 4200k which is not enough to produce the Emerson effect so maybe the grow tubes will be the best bet for a T5 setup. (fluorescent tubes produce light over a broad spectral range so this statement isn't technically accurate, but in regards to plant growth the 4200k tubes produce little usable light in the spectral range needed to stimulate this effect)

https://en.wikipedia.../Emerson_effect

http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC550018/

[BBGONE]

Thats good to know about Emerson effect (thank, usefull knowlage).

But, alas all simple flourecent tubes are triphosphoros.

And they emit not wide spectrum light, but very narrow bands.

To make white or warm white light tubes, they use three narrow bands (red, green, blue) -

when they are mixed in different proportions, tube producers manufacture different lights (warmer, cool white, etc).

Plant Grow fluoros have wider spectrum than common tubes, and less green with more blue and red.

So i expect them to produce better result than common tubes.

P.S.- now i use 115 cm tubes, 6 tubes with 54W each.

I use aquarium light set up "Aqua Medic Ocean Light".

Did not find here locally specialized (for growing plants) T5 tubes setup like in USA's stores - "Sun Blaze" or "New Wave".

What I have found about Plant Grow Fluoros: http://donklipstein.com/f-spec.html

The usual plant photosynthesis using chlorophyl works best from red light. There are two slightly distinct processes that both work best from red light. Both work well from red wavelengths from 610 to 675 nm, and one of them also efficiently utilizes wavelengths up to 695 nm. Most fluorescent lamps made for plant growth purposes usually produce most of their spectral output in the 630 to 670 nm range. These wavelengths are red, and not as visible as shorter red wavelengths in the 610 to 630 nm range typical of fluorescent lamps designed for maximum apparently visible red output. Therefore, plant-growing lamps are not as bright as lamps designed for general illumination purposes.

Since plant-growing lamps produce mainly the light blue light of the low pressure mercury vapor arc and deep red wavelengths, they usually have a light purple or purplish-pinkish color and are noticeably dimmer than white fluorescent lamps.

Although chlorophyl also utilizes blue light, it does not utilize blue light as well as red light. Other photosensitive chemicals such as carotene respond to deep blue and violet-blue light, and therefore some plants may need some blue light for proper health. However, plants will usually get enough of this from the violet-blue 435.8 nm mercury line from any fluorescent lamps that provide enough red light. Use of blue light by chlorophyl may be impaired in a few types of plants by colored substances in these plants that block blue light.

Plants will utilize orange and orange-yellow light, just not quite as effectively as red light. Fluorescent lamps rich in orange and orange-yellow output will generally work, but you may need enough lighting to be distractingly bright since human eyes are more sensitive to orange and yellow light than to the deep red wavelengths that plant lights are optimized to produce.

Please note that lowest-color-temperature ("warmest") tri-phosphor lamps (generally with rated color temperature at or near 3,000 Kelvin) produce lots of orangish red light around 611 nm, and will grow plants somewhat better than other white and near-white fluorescent lamps. These will grow plants almost as well as lights made for plants, but will look brighter.

Lights optimized for plant growth are low on green output, since plants reflect green light and cannot utilize green light well. One side effect is making red and blue objects look extra bright, and making green objects look an extra-deep darker shade of green. Part of the color-enhancing effect is from a relative lack of orange, yellow, and blue-green wavelengths that make green objects look slightly less green, with the presence of some nearly pure (only slightly yellowish) green light from the 546.1 nm mercury line. The shortage of orange and yellow light results in red objects looking vivid pure red. All this results in a general color-enhancing effect which is often considered a desirable side effect of plant-growing fluorescent lamps.

* "Aquarilux" "Aquarium Light" - This is a common model of fluorescent lamp nearly optimized for growing plants. The phosphor spectrum consists mainly of a 5-peak red band, with the major peaks near 624, 632, 648, and 660 nm. Within each of these two pairs, the longer wavelength peak is somewhat stronger. The 648-660 pair is substantially stronger than the 624-632 nm pair, but looks slightly dimmer due to the lower visibility of the longer wavelengths. There is a much weaker peak in the middle near 640 nm.

In addition to the strong 5-peak red band, there is a weak continuous spectrum.

And one more article about flourecent lamp Phosphors techs. and spectrum:

http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Documents/FL%20Phosphors.htm

Edited May 14, 2012 by BBGONE

[Goldtop]

Thanks for the info guys, interesting stuff, more than helpful And ill definatly keep my eyes peeled for some harrisia, it seems a difficult find in oz though. Be on the lookout

Edited May 14, 2012 by Goldtop

[sapito]

I can understand the desire to want your babies to grow fast and all that but IMO hard grown lophs look the best. IVe seen many that people have tried to grow under lights in winter and they get a distorted shape.

Your climate says tropical so I doubt winter would be anything stressful for them. Mine get a few degrees below 0 every year and they are not bothered. Plus you get the joy of seeing them burst back into life as it warms up again. For me thats worth the few months of no growth.

Anyway just an idea. Maybe you could keep some to grow 'natural' for that matured tough look

[Goldtop]

Yea ive taken your advice for the seed grown guys, im gonna leave them as natural as possible But as for my grafts, their going to be put into warmth and strong light over winter, i figure that their mutants already, and i might aswell try and pump out as much growth as i can each year. Im gonna take some before and after picks of the grafts. Then i can compare a years growth with an artificial season, and a years for one that takes it as mother nature dishes out.

Ive also put my loph seedlings under a fluro at night, while taking the natural light during the day. Ive seen pics of peoples been done this way, or 24hr fluro. And it seems like the only way to go when talking seedlings Cheers for the help fellas

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Sweet, thanks d00d. I wasnt looking forward to the season but now it doesnt sound too bad, hopefully theyll push out some mad growth up until spring Plus it will be outdoors during the day, ill just have to cover it over at night when the light is on.

Do you think covering the inground plants over, and keeping some warmth in. Will do any good in terms of growth? Or is it all a matter of the light intensity? Cheers bud

 

hmmm not sure about covering them mate, like others have pointed out, they can withstand some cold temps the little buggers... maybe covering them (with shadecloth etc) can trap in colder temps/moisture??

i think you need to take into consideration what type of lophs you are going for.. if your after a more natural look, leave them to winter, possibly even loose a few to natural selection to make sure your left with the strongest to throw your energy into...

i want to point out the only reason i am CFL'ing my seedlings is because i am currently in a 1 bedroom apartment because of work/living arrangements... i usually kept them outdoors under cover in a bunnings portable greenhouse, which did them zero harm minus them wintering and me not being able to watch them grow for a few months... now there under lights the only negative i can bring to light is they are not as taunt and squat as my other seedlings, a tad bit more etiolated etc.

hope this helps you out, sorry about the very "laymen" terms..

d00d

edit - sorry didnt realise you'd pretty much already worked out your game plan prior to my post

Edited May 15, 2012 by thed00dabides

[Goldtop]

I hope they all survive through the winter d00d! ill be gutted if i lose any haha. Im still gonna try and keep the seed grown relatively warm though (try for nothing below 10C), i just wont be giving them summer like heat and light in the nights I had pretty crazy etiolation on some of my seedlings aswell, i gave them not enough light while they were germing and they reached for the sky. Since being outside theyve all plumped up pretty good, and now i hit em with the fluro at night. If youve got the time and dont mind the fuck around d00d, i reken you should try giving them natural uv during the day. Seems to work a treat

[IndianDreaming]

Great info bbgone, thanks.

I've got half of my LW/Trich seedlings (3 months old) in a buninngs tent out the back to 'slow grow'. But the other half is in a 2ft x 2ft x 2ft sillver lined box, inside the house with a 4 x 55w T5 6500k light right at the top and a pc fan blowing in one corner. I put a 1lt container on the bottom (under where the fan blows) with strips of material in it that hang out over the edges of the container for humidity - I need to fill the cup every 2 days, so it seems to be evaporating nicely.

I tried to find some 55w 2700k 2g11 tubes today and they're quite annoying to find... There appears to be 3 brands:

Ge = Biax-L

Osram = Dulux-L

Philips = PL-L

Sylvania = Lynx-L

After reading all these posts, I'm going to try mixing in some red to keep things balanced. Any preferences? Do any of you have these lights?

Goldtop: I know how you feel - I just lost a few to slugs!