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zelly

another unknown trich

Question

I'm leaning towards bridgesii on this one but sure would appreciate other input.

Besides nearby pc pach, its always the first to flower & tends to be a fat, fast grower.

Mature central spines near the base are 10 cm long

trichbudsdsc0834.jpg

Any ideas?

Comparison pic of a known bridgesii, this one is also fat but very slow grower...

zbridgebudsdsc0837.jpg

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Got more pics? This is not easy because bridgesii´s of that size can look very variable.

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more pics:

trichdsc0895.jpg

trichdsc0897.jpg

trichdsc0899.jpg

trichdsc0901.jpg

trichdsc0909.jpg

Taller stem in the background is from the same plant, strangely, has never flowered, and it is around 2.5 meters tall

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i would say trichocereus validus, but i'm not too sure.

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Wow! I have no idea what to call it, but man is that a real looker. I'm going to say it's simply a mutt.

~Michael~

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That is a frigin nice looking plant! Is that your's sir?

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Nice cactus!!!

The two pics of the basal region remind me of an SS01 X SS02 I have.

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reminds me of a Kimura's giant X Bridgesii, which is a peruXbridgesii

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Wow! I have no idea what to call it, but man is that a real looker. I'm going to say it's simply a mutt.

 

Hey great idea Michael. My first dog was a mutt we named Chubby.

Henceforth, this clone will be called Chubby. :wink:

Speaking of mutts, here's another one. Errr, well the self fertile flower anyway... :P

beedsc0116.jpg

The two pics of the basal region remind me of an SS01 X SS02 I have.

 

For shits & giggles, here's what the reverse, a mature SS02 X SS01 looks like :wink:

growing tip of an offset......

ss02xss01dsc0312.jpg

main stem near the base

ss02xss01dsc0313.jpg

tip of the main stem :P

ss02xss01budsdsc0873.jpg

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these pictures are turning me into a fan of longer larger spines on cactii, that is, if I didn't already know I am that . . . something has to deter people making a meal of it

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People dont eat cacti

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My first gut instinct was Trichocereus Validus and the fact that some others are leaning towards it as is enough to convince me. I really think thats it. Do you own this plant or are this pics from the wild? If you happen to get seeds or pollen, im like all over it. :)

Btw, the plant looks a lot like the one that SS collected in Peru and what is believed to be a Validus as well. If i remember right, this one is a little bit diffrent than ritters Validus but its definately very close to the one from SS.

Edited by Evil Genius
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Thanks dionysus & EG, she'll be my chubby validus.

Do you own this plant or are this pics from the wild? If you happen to get seeds or pollen, im like all over it.

Yup, I own the plant, so I'll put you down for some pollen (how would you like it preserved), and if she sets fruit, you'll get some seeds as well.

Btw, the plant looks a lot like the one that SS collected in Peru

Interesting link regarding SS & validus:

http://trichoserious...s-n152509a.html

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My first gut instinct was Trichocereus Validus and the fact that some others are leaning towards it as is enough to convince me.

 

To convince you...really?

Here's your scan of Backeberg's T. validus, so maybe you mean that other T. validus.

post-19-0-09114400-1335866462_thumb.jpg

~Michael~

post-19-0-09114400-1335866462_thumb.jpg

post-19-0-09114400-1335866462_thumb.jpg

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I know the Validus from backeberg and ritter looks diffrent. But this comes extremely close to the Plant Sacred Succulents collected under that name and it has many similarities to Validus. At first, i thought it would be the same pics. If its not a Validus, it is a species that wasnt described. Its definately not a brigesii. It has similarities to Cuzcoensis but it also has as much things that wouldnt fit. Im not for making up new species for all kind of shit but this is one that would deserve it. From all the species i know, Validus fits the best. If you know a better one, im open for suggestions though.

Will check the SS pics later on. I know i´ve seen exactly this type of Tricho before. Will check where it grows.

Edited by Evil Genius

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Checked the pics and found one that has similarities but it wasnt the pic i remembered. But now i know where i´ve seen this plant before. It was in the Trichocereus Valida Thread from Brethloth. Didnt he mention the guy who owns the plant got the seeds from Ritter? I wouldnt be surprised. Old people may be wrong oftenly, but they usually remember things from the distant past surprisingly well sometimes. Like i said, wouldnt know of a diffrrent Tricho that this could be.

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I know the Validus from backeberg and ritter looks diffrent. But this comes extremely close to the Plant Sacred Succulents collected under that name and it has many similarities to Validus. At first, i thought it would be the same pics. If its not a Validus, it is a species that wasnt described. Its definately not a brigesii. It has similarities to Cuzcoensis but it also has as much things that wouldnt fit. Im not for making up new species for all kind of shit but this is one that would deserve it. From all the species i know, Validus fits the best. If you know a better one, im open for suggestions though.

Will check the SS pics later on. I know i´ve seen exactly this type of Tricho before. Will check where it grows....

Checked the pics and found one that has similarities but it wasnt the pic i remembered. But now i know where i´ve seen this plant before. It was in the Trichocereus Valida Thread from Brethloth. Didnt he mention the guy who owns the plant got the seeds from Ritter? I wouldnt be surprised. Old people may be wrong oftenly, but they usually remember things from the distant past surprisingly well sometimes. Like i said, wouldnt know of a diffrrent Tricho that this could be.

 

Trout in previous comments on this "species" leans like I do towards T. validus falling in with the T. tacaquirensis grouping of plants, something zelly's plant doesn't seem to fit at all. But it does seem to fit a little closer to Bretloth's pictures of the "T. valida" at Fields' place in the thread at http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=30197, but there is lots of room for question and doubt to say the least about just what that plant is.

From my perspective I believe that for T. valida/validus to even be valid as a name you need to have independent self-replicating populations, and from what I can tell no one can pin-point such a population. Now I can't necessarily say that zelly's plant is such and such a species, but I have trouble applying a name to a plant when there is little certainty even on the species.

I've long say that there needs to be a very thorough examination of the populations of Trichocereus in southern Bolivia and northern Argentina, and that there is in all likelihood some intermediary forms. Hell, Backeberg doesn't even know if T. validus grows into a branching plant, observing only stout erect columns, and doesn't even know where it grows, simply suggesting southeast Bolivia with a big question mark (how he has a photo but no location is beyond me...this even though the photo looks to be of T. terscheckii). And Ritter's Cactus of South America doesn't even recognize the species at all. Bretloth's Fields plant certainly has no trouble branching, and I'll bet zelly's will have no trouble branching either. Makes you wonder how familiar Backeberg was at all with T. validus, or even the plants of southern Bolivia and northern Argentina.

As for what species zelly's might be, well I already stated that I figured it was just a mutt. If I was to say what might be in the mutt, well I'd lean towards a bit of T. terscheckii and a bit of T. peruvianus, but otherwise I think saying both the Fields plant and zelly's are in fact T. validus is a bit premature when the evidence, or lack thereof, indicates that there should be more questions than presummed answers.

~Michael~

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Hi Michael, i agree with most parts you criticize about the Species Trichocereus Validus and the way it was created. Backeberg wasnt very vamiliar with Trichocereus Validus. In general, you can say that Backeberg´s books are full of taxonomical and logical errors so i wholeheartedly agree with that. However, i have no problems believing that the plant in Brethloth´s pics grew out of a Validus/Valida Seedbag from Ritter. Possible the plant grown out of the harvested seed was an intermediate. Its also possible Ritter collected seeds from various similar looking plants and called it Validus. Everytime a collector has problems defining a species, he calls it validus. I really dont know how this plant fits into the taxonomic system but its definately very close to the plant in Brethloths thread.

And btw. In the past 2-3 years, i´ve seen countless South American Trichos that wouldnt really fit into most species that we know today as they are special in one way or the other. Like you mentioned, there are MANY Intermediates and sometimes, its just not possible to say for sure what the parents were. Personally, i stopped trying to make a plant fit into a certain cateogory or name. Of course there are always plants that can be clearly ID´d and labeled. But as soon as you start looking into habitats, you´ll find some Trichos that look slightly or extremely diffrent. Personally, i dont care how this plant is called as i know how fragile and impermanent a taxonomic species can be. But its an awesome Trichocereus and im glad its around. Would love to watch this more closely in the future.

Edited by Evil Genius
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here is the validus in my collection that i based my claim off of, it is still only small but i think starting to grow in very similar fashion to zelly's plant. trichocereus validus MAY not be a correct species name but it does go pretty far in describing the form of a plant. saying validus is far more descriptive than 'cactus mutt'.

dio

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here is the validus in my collection that i based my claim off of, it is still only small but i think starting to grow in very similar fashion to zelly's plant. trichocereus validus MAY not be a correct species name but it does go pretty far in describing the form of a plant. saying validus is far more descriptive than 'cactus mutt'.

dio

 

dio, your plant is way different than zelly's...just look at the spination on the column of zelly's and then at yours. Your plant may go by the name T. validus, but I place little doubt on it being anything other than a T. terscheckii. Certainly saying T. validus is better than saying mutt, but not if the plant you are calling T. validus can be effectively argued as not being T. validus...unless one is prone to simply call something something because calling it something is better than calling it nothing.

~Michael~

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my photo doesn't do my plant much justice, but i swear in person it looks near identicle to zellys first picture of the flowering tip, some of the dominant spines have been broke by snails a while ago though. i did a little more looking around thismorning and it seems most pictures i can access of validus or of the other, far different, variety. i did however see photos of a 'validus' looking much like mine flowering with white wooly flowers, rather than zellys black, so now i too am in doubt.

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Well as it turns out, the pic of the flower I posted in post #9

http://www.shaman-au...ndpost&p=363634

is of the same plant from last year when it flowered. The flowers are 1/2 the size of a PC pach & seem to be self fertile, as i recall fruit from this plant last year. I cant remember if anything else was flowering at the time.

Here's a pic of this years flowers from the buds in post #1

post-3765-0-72061700-1336237638_thumb.jp

The bees beat me to it, and some nearby PC pach was blooming at the same time, so who's to say what the fruit will be.

Nearby PC pach in bloom

post-3765-0-43559600-1336237936_thumb.jp

post-3765-0-72061700-1336237638_thumb.jpg

post-3765-0-43559600-1336237936_thumb.jpg

post-3765-0-72061700-1336237638_thumb.jpg

post-3765-0-43559600-1336237936_thumb.jpg

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At the first glance i thought taquimbalensis/tescheckii group, and was amazed how zelly could be mistake this for a bridgesii, from the fatness alone. BUT, I can see the similarity in spines in close up

Seeing people discussing validus makes me think indeed its that fatty group again.

Reading Michaels comments makes sense too, but I am not convinced it's THAT different from those group. Maybe its a hybrid between a giant, perhaps a terscheckii and a bridgesi?

Are there spots in argentina/bolivia some giant trichocereus and bridgesii co-occur or are relatively near?

hay dont bats pollinate trichos? cant bats travel amazing distances per night? if bats do pollinate them, then maybe they are to blame for the confusion nowadays...

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Hmmmm seeing more pictures of validus, it makes me wonder if the fat trichos I bought couple days ago, mistakenly labeled as pasacana, and which I named terscheckii are infact validus.... LOL!

I will show them shortly, I haven't received the big one yet.

PLUS, in this Trichoserious blog, some of the validus seem like terschecki....

fuck I have to study again tonight!

God damn bats!!!

Edited by mutant

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seeds & pollen from the plant in the first post are now available.

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I just came. Would be so great to get pollen fast as i got sitloads of flowers emerging and i would love to use it for a few crosses this year. Also very interested in seeds. This one will be on top of my sowing plan for next year.

Edited by Evil Genius
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