how reliable are 'they'?

[wandjina]

this is an odd question, perhaps even a stupid question, dealing with a highly subjective topic...but, purely out of curiosity:

From your personal experience how reliable are 'they'...in so far as what 'they' 'tell' one?

[Amulte]

well from the vaugeness one can only assuem wht you mean.

and if i assume correctly, "they" cannot be trusted when it comes to info. "they" are propoganda based.

i hope that helps buddy :confused:

[Evil Genius]

It´s like planthelper said, maybe they know you lots more than you know yourself. If so, they should be reliable

Nevertheless, i think you should personally know best in case of any disagreements. I assume it´s a good way to see yourself through others eyes though. You´ll only know yourself what´s most important in your life.

[Amulte]

i think 'you' should perhaps just come out with it and see if 'we' are reliable?

[Evil Genius]

I´m not sure what the threadstarter actually intented to say. I think that he meant great insights from Trips and what value these could have in the reality.

But maybe he meant something completely different. Maybe he is letting us know.

[nabraxas]

is abit vague

i thought wandjina meant the voices in her head.

i never give them much time myself.

try an experiment, like asking them who'll win the melbourne cup.

i hear a voice saying Makybe Diva

[Legba]

they just told me they cant be trusted, but im pretty sure they were lying.

[-YT-]

From your personal experience how reliable are 'they'...in so far as what 'they' 'tell' one?

Yeh it is a bit vague but thats the challenge Wadjina maybe means "they" as in our special plant friends? If so they can be quite reliable in what they "tell" one. offcourse i could have totally misssed the point and talking about something totally different lol

[Amulte]

the more i think of it the more i think 'they' could be spirits of the deceased. and you can and cant trust 'them'.

[narayan]

This is assuming that by 'they' you mean our plant allies.

I don't allways follow what 'they' say but each time I have it has always led to better things in my life so I really don't care whether what 'they' say is the divine truth or just another subjective viewpoint from another state of conciousness.

[mr toodly]

I think "they" is about as reliable as "that"

Lay off the yaba.

[mescalito]

Planthelpers little story had my emotions going there because I know what that feels like...it's terrifying to a point but when you let go of conscious control things just "are" and everything somehow falls in place.

Whoever "they" are doesn't really matter IMO.

Unless you have a mission statement for "them" to work with you'll get a garbled mess.This is true with spirits,angels,guides,dreams,plant teachers and allies alike....Oh and the subconscious mind ;)

[Blue]

Maybe planthelper is pretty close to knowing the question, if not still an interesting thread. Are "they" the collective unconscious, and if so "they" are all the abovementioned; allies, ego, spirits, self, guides etc. In that case they are always "telling" us, but at different times in our development they are in imbalance. Usually early in our lives it is the self, before social conditioning kicks the young and defenceless self in the head and takes over. For a lot of people (myself included) this condition can become overpowering for a time (or ever!). I found self administered psychotherapy with the aid of our friends not always completely pleasant, but always enlightening. Personally this is when I was able to identify and suppress my raging ego (as planthelper alluded to). Hopefully then comes stillness of mind because big bad ego is not always yelling at itty bitty self to shut up the whinging (internal dialogue). With minimised internal dialogue the other more 'external' aspects of the collective unconscious can be "heard" more clearly maybe. I assume this to be a greater affinity with the devic realm as well as other spirits, guides, allies etc. If this theory (and it is definately only half baked) holds some semblance of credibility then it goes that "they" can be trusted when in balance but "they" that are dominated by any one aspect should be listened to with caution and in this very act, the imbalance is helping to be corrected.

Hope I'm not dribbling.

When in doubt "UP THE DOSE!". Any unpleasantness is always introspective and teaches lots.

[planthelper]

if they are asociated with fear and you are stressed out, don't do what they say.

if you are grounded and happy, than consider there input.

once i came very close to drown in a rip during storm surf, first i paniced the thought voice said, you can fucking die now, than i accepted the likelyhood of death, but said to myselfe, i am not dead yet, i will fight to stay alive.

suddenly a enormous calmness overcame me, and "they told me what to do.

conserve your energie, let the rip drag you out.

be patient big waves got you in trouble, a big wave will save you.

an a very, very big wave came, i paddled with all strengh i had left, it's your only chance, and it picked me up, the shore line came closer and closer, i held the bord in front of me to avoid beeing dumped, i am not going to die, fuck the feeling knowing i would live was incredible.

the initial fear gave me all the wrong ideas, the calmness gave me the right ones.

and sure i did pray.

same happens when you panic getting lost in the wild or even in a big city only a sound mind makes you do the right thing.

everytime i tell this story, i relive it, for the first few years often i cried and went thrue enormous mood changes, whilst i talked about it.

now i just focus on the thrill i had when i knew i would not die.

no fears, as the angst is what holds us back.

the angst is a leftover from when we were animals, but now as humans the goal is to overcome all fears, and the resulting calmnes is what makes us gods.

[planthelper]

oh, now i know what you meant!

i think they know you better than yourselfe and are allways trying to help.

but one needs to stay in contact for a longer periode of time and maybe loose totaly ones ego, to have them working for you.

[wandjina]

Lay off the yaba.

first may I say...yabba dabbo doo!

the more i think of it the more i think 'they' could be spirits of the deceased.

Nup, highly unlikely

Whoever "they" are doesn't really matter IMO.

Unless you have a mission statement for "them" to work with you'll get a garbled mess

uhhuh, couldn't agree more. although coming up with esoteric theories is fun and intellectually stimulating IMO

Hope I'm not dribbling.

what you said made alot of sense to me

This is assuming that by 'they' you mean our plant allies.

yup ;)

i think 'you' should perhaps just come out with it and see if 'we' are reliable?

hmmm, ok. since this will be my last post till November, why the hell not.

'A Dream'

Channelled through a successive series of impressively bizarre morphing 'rooms' populated with humanoidish figures who continually 'told' me to 'shoosh' (I can't seem to help asking what 'they' seem to 'consider' irrelevant questions...although 'they' did 'answer' a couple heheh ) , I began to 'rise' back into my body when 'they' 'told' me to 'listen'. Still, my restless mind would not give up the ghost...'why' I asked, 'what are you doing?'...SHOOSH!!! Listen....

then suddenly I became profoundly aware of the beating of my heart, in a physical and 'spiritual' sense, as if my entire body dropped away and all that was left was my heart beating in space. And beating very, very fast.

'Fair enough' I thought, metaphorically speaking I have just jumped off the precipise into the void, no wonder my hearts going like clappers...but then I had not experienced any fear this time...perhaps my body was scared whilst my 'mind' was not?

'What are you trying to tell me?'

listen listen

So I shut up and listened, and felt the beating of my heart. I became incredibly aware of the anatomical structure of my heart, the valves and blood vessels, the rhythmic muscular contractions pumping blood in and out an an astounding pace.

listen, listen here

and I felt my awareness 'directed' to the left side of my heart....and I heard/felt something.

Like a fluttering, a small spasm, a strange sensation in the valves/vessels coming out/going in the left side of my heart...my heart , my heart!!

'what are you trying to tell me? is there something wrong with my heart??'

'silence' and then an 'unspoken' 'you know what we are showing you'.

oh shit. now I was scared.

I know that in my short life my heart has copped a beating, both psysiologically (e.g. ephedra overdose), and emotionally/spiritually/psychologically (successive significant 'losses').

I posted this thread for three reasons:

1. I thought it'd be interesting to see how people took it, which it has been

2. I wanted someone to say that what 'they' say means diddly squat...it's so subjective that you can't rely on it. Then I could go on with things as per usual.

3. I also wanted someone to say that, yes, I should listen, I should take this seriously no matter what 'who' 'they' are...that this is serious, because I guess that, really, I sense/know that it is.

I havn't had a coffee since :D

[occidentalis]

A while ago I read something on tripzine.com in which the editor did a series of somewhat-controlled experiments with 'them'. In these experiments he attempted to ascertain whether or not they could provide one with any truly new information, or whether they just dig up things you already know. His conclusion was that they are not able to tell you anything you didn't already know, and from this he inferred that they are in fact figments of the tryptamine imagination rather than autonomous entities existing independently in any realm of spacetime.

However, most of us have had experiences which suggest they are something more than purely figments of the imagination. One strong experience of my own left me wondering whether I had in fact visited other dimensions and met their inhabitants - I'd certainly never imagined such creatures before.

I suspect that the answer, if one exists, will be something of a mix between these two extreme possibilities.

Wandjina, if this message had come to you in another form - sleeping dream, voices in the head while awake, clairvoyant session or whatever - would you be more or less likely to pay attention to it?

If I were you I'd get your heart checked out. Why not? You may or may not prevent yourself from being seriously sick, but you will definitely find out something very interesting about our gnomic friends.

[apothecary]

I'm with creach.

The best way to answer the first question in this thread is to go and get your heart checked, I think ;)

[Evil Genius]

For me it would be most important to know what´s going on inside my chest.What the people on this Board would do in your situation seems to be almost secondary to me, as you are concerned allready. If you don´t let it check, i´m sure your mind will be concerned anytime you think about it. Maybe this is totally unnecessary. Don´t waste your good times. They don´t last that long.

If you´d really have some heart problems, there would most likely be no Problem to treat them medicamentally. Most Serious Heart Problems occur because the disease has been overlooked.

[Blue]

Evil genius is right, all this stuff is secondary to your physical self, your temple is primary. Peace of mind is beautiful but takes a bit of effort to attain. Check it out for yourself Wandjina. ;)

[gerbil]

From your personal experience how reliable are 'they'...in so far as what 'they' 'tell' one?

Very reliable IMO, but that's not to say everything should be taken on board as 'true', IMO you must sift through alot of the tangled web to find your personal knowledge. Hard roads, though nothing comes easily.

I like a bit I read by an ayahuasquero, it may have been Don Pablo Amaringo, but just the same it may well have been an individual commented on in an authors journeys through the land, i can't quite remember...

Anyway it went something along the lines of "not all of the information is true, there are alot of deceptive traps that one must use all their power to comprehend and utilise the good from the bad" something like that, obviously i made up all the wording.

Specific situations will bring about specific knowledge and even then I feel it's very much the personal mentality of the person in question that will bring about a certain result. It's all unfolding of the personal mind, there's nothing 'fake' about the situations AT ALL imo. Mearly an unfolding of yourself and your roots and connections of existence. I don't believe they are 'secrets' , moreso parts disconnected from everyday life that we just have lost access to, or maybe only ever had access to via use of certain plants or combinations of, then going to to crude or complex extractions.

My thoughts are very much vegetation based i suppose would be the best way to describe it (too much stigma attached to organic ey ;) ). Language within nature. Observing animal language is a real eye opener on the way the planet and it's inhabitants existence, that knowledge is incredibly valuable and quite real IMO.

Our minds are extremely complex and a wealth of extremely useful information, the availability of the knowledge is a different situation and even then, comprehension of that can be too baffling at the time or even forever.

Bit vauge of a response, but then again how do you really communicate the uncommunicateable (is that a word hehe), at least electronically it seems to be the case.

My thoughts I find what we call 'shaman' are very clued in to the world and have to be one of the most respected folk within my world and i doubt that will ever change. A journey is cleansing on so many levels I suppose it could be said, without it situations on this planet can be fatal (Hmm look at Mr. bush)

[t st tantra]

i have been thinking of a similar q.

but i'm more interested in the motives of plant spirits and basically what their agenda might be.

some seem gaianly benign ,while others will slap you around mentally if they think you are not showing enough respect.

this is where we come back to castenada and 'teachers' and 'allies'.,to some extent.

i place great value on plant communications but they seem to play games ,like many shaman,if they feel you need to learn something.

i was in an altered state in a very public place and fell in love with a total stranger,love at first sight.

freaked and left.

which left it all unresolved,so i had to return to the same place a few times before i was able to introduce myself.

it seems to have been an illusion based on an actual astrological compatability,also a message about action/inaction and a demonstration of the power of my own chemistry to shape my life.

and no doubt other things including a possible prep for a future encounter.

t s t .

[Rune]

I think if you use any natural medium (plants, nature - even your own sober mind) with a clear conscience i.e. 'most innocence', your karma is right for reliable communication with 'most high'.

[devance]

I am replying to the actual hear voices type of outlook.

A Biblical theory that I heard about.

"But now the giants who are born from the (union of) the spirits and the flesh shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, because their dwelling shall be upon the earth and inside the earth. Evil spirits have come out of their bodies. Because from the day that they were created from the holy ones they became the Watchers; their first origin is the spiritual foundation. They will become evil upon the earth and shall be called evil spirits. The dwelling of the spiritual beings of heaven is heaven; but the dwelling of the spirits of the earth, which are born upon the earth, is in the earth. The spirits of the giants oppress each other, they will corrupt, fall, be excited, and fall upon the earth, and cause sorrow. They eat no food, nor become thirsty, nor find obstacles. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of the people and against the women, because they have proceeded forth (from them). - 1 Enoch 15"

http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/myt...gy/watchers.asp

Now if that was true than heaven would work more in attracting ones attention to something they wanted one to notice rather than trying to compete against very skilled telepathic liars verbal voice wise, for who is seen as the the good spirit.

So I would just reject any heard voices.

I would guess hearing voices would be like the tantalus pit , one would always leaping for the water above but its just out of reach creating a tiring experience. Or in the case of the Nephilim a presence without clear identification with a unclear and confusing communication.

Fallen angels seem to work more by socially corrupting teaching.

Nephilim seem to be more like expendable shock troops even after physical death they can still supposedly die in a sudden and a more permanent way..

[Rune]

I wouldn't bet on something that could be scrambled communication due to fears etc. in your own spirit.

I had an experience where the spirit of einstein was guiding me and I was holding an invisible tobacco pipe, thinking things and then giving reasonable thought to the opposite of what had until then been a conclusion. this went on for hours.

I'm still going through this experience in my mind even today, and still taking it with many grains of salt. I have too many blockages and fears and bad karma to trust completely what was shown. all I can do is remember the einstein experience and apply it to the memory of the situation itself - that is to say, note that 'it's reasonable to assume that it's possible that this experience may or may not be trusted'.

to me, anything spiritual works on faith. some things you have a stronger feeling of confidence in their authenticity. I don't think anyone here can tell you if your experience was real - only you.

I think spiritual experiences influenced by substances come out as knowledge in dribs and drabs in the future. I think what I'm saying now may be influenced by einstein's spirit! lol. but I'm under no illusions as to the greatness of his intelligence compared to the many shortfalls of mine. I do bet though, that he would be kind enough to try to teach me.