T.B.M.long joined / lophocereus schottii??

[posko]

hi sorry to start this topic again but I just wonder if any of you know or can label correctly

this two tipes of cacti this is what i found on the net:

the first 8 pict are from a german vendor,, do you think it can be a t.b.m?? or a lophocereus??

from pict. 9 to 11 the usual t.b.m long joined type, from 12 to 14 what i think to be definitely

a lophocereus and 15/17 other pictures

hope you can enlight me a bit more!

enjoy:

1

2

3

this one from the same source:

4

5

6

7

8

t.b.m

9

10

11

look at the spines!

and lophocereus:

12

13

14

no spines..

some other pictures:

15

labeled as t.b.m. pic.from (thenook)

16

t.b.m. cactus art

17

the two penis

Edited February 25, 2012 by posko

[chilli]

Wow I really love the second one in pics 4-7 and the group shot that follows it.

I too am not convinced that the "hulk dick" which you have pictured from 12-15 and on the right in 17 is anything to do with a TBM, and lean more towards the idea that it is a different form of Lophocereus schotti monstrose. There seems to be a lot of confusion and different opinions on this though.

[zelly]

pics 1-8 = bridgesii

9, 10, 11= tbm

12 = L schotti monstrous

13 & 14 T. santiaguensis (aka T. spachianus monstrous)

15= tbm

[chilli]

I'm not sure, I think 12-14 are the same clone, possibly 15 as well.

Also, none of them are anything like the standard Lophocereus schottii monstrose, but I have seen one or two places designating this plant as a "smooth form" variety.

[posko]

yep me too! 12-14 lophocereus but not 100% shure.. maybe zelly is right, 1 to 8 t.bridgesii a very rare form! (which is been sold on e-bay for 86 euros as t.b.m columnar)

if you compare the spines of n 9 and 1 to 8 they look very similar!

nice replys guys!

[Evil Genius]

Hi Posko, just came home and havent had much time to take a look but i think that only 13 is definately Lophocereus. You can see a small spine on Picture 12 and it definately looks yellow and like the ones on the TBM. 14 is hard to tell but i know the seller and im pretty sure the ones he sells is Bridgesii. But im sure he wouldnt know the difference so i would not put my hand for him in the fire. He has some good stuff from time to time but is a weird guy. I know there are two types of the bridgesii monstrose and the columnar growing one looks a lot like the Lophocereus Monstrose. But they grow a lot faster and thats another reason i think 14 is bridgesii. Bridgesii grows pretty fast into a rather thin column and Lophocereus is fat and slow. I am pretty sure that "Hulk Dick" is definately a Lophocereus. Could be very wrong about this but i had the Lophocereus Monstrose many years ago and it looked a lot like it. Got it from Haage, the oldest cactus nursery in germany (and maybe even europe) and they sold it as Tbm. Still makes me lol. bye Eg

Edited February 25, 2012 by Evil Genius

[Ethos]

I have a TBM which was attacked by something and continues to grow, the wierd thing is when the pup was attacked it seemed to have changed its habit of terminating and then pupping and continued to grow like a columnar with only 2 areole's on one side.

It looks sort of like a baby version of the melted wax bridgesii, would this be possible for a TBM to change it's Monstrose properties?

[posko]

Hi Posko, just came home and havent had much time to take a look but i think that only 13 is definately Lophocereus. You can see a small spine on Picture 12 and it definately looks yellow and like the ones on the TBM. 14 is hard to tell but i know the seller and im pretty sure the ones he sells is Bridgesii. But im sure he wouldnt know the difference so i would not put my hand for him in the fire. He has some good stuff from time to time but is a weird guy. I know there are two types of the bridgesii monstrose and the columnar growing one looks a lot like the Lophocereus Monstrose. But they grow a lot faster and thats another reason i think 14 is bridgesii. Bridgesii grows pretty fast into a rather thin column and Lophocereus is fat and slow. I am pretty sure that "Hulk Dick" is definately a Lophocereus. Could be very wrong about this but i had the Lophocereus Monstrose many years ago and it looked a lot like it. Got it from Haage, the oldest cactus nursery in germany (and maybe even europe) and they sold it as Tbm. Still makes me lol. bye Eg

 

thanx evil genius to my little knowledge i think tht 13 and possibly 12 are lophocereus, 14 possibly a bridgesii,, what do you think abt 1 to 8?? it may be a rare form of bridgesii montrose possibly a t.b.m. clone c!

the seller is from germany and he says is t.b.m. but obviously not all of the sellers are aware of what they got!

[posko]

I have a TBM which was attacked by something and continues to grow, the wierd thing is when the pup was attacked it seemed to have changed its habit of terminating and then pupping and continued to grow like a columnar with only 2 areole's on one side.

It looks sort of like a baby version of the melted wax bridgesii, would this be possible for a TBM to change it's Monstrose properties?

 

yes! i think cacti can change they genetic proprierties very quickly and threre always be many variants on each specie coz the desert is a very very hard enviroment

so they got to change it fast!

they are indeed strange! but nice!

[Evil Genius]

Hi Posko, on these pics there are only two forms but they can grow differently. Cactus growth can be very variable. 1-12 are definately Bridgesii. Spines dont lie. 14 could be Lophocereus but i know the plant only grows spines from time to time and im pretty sure its bridgesii as well.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Evil Genius

[chilli]

Wow EG I didn't notice those spines even though they are staring me in the face!

Ethos yes they sometimes do crazy stuff, and sometimes the clone A will grow very similarly to the clone B.

posko I think if that first one warrants being called clone C, then we better call 12 clone D because it looks different too!

But I don't think a clone can change its genetics can it?

Cool pictures anyway, I have been amazed lately to discover so many lageniformis monsters.

[Evil Genius]

Yeah sometimes, things can be too close to see them. ;-)

Another pretty reliable way to differentiate between the columnar tbm and the Lophocereus Monstrose is the size. Like mentioned in another Thread, Lophocereus grows EXTREMELY slow. On its own roots, a 1 meter cutting would take like 30-40 years and would be very thick. Most tbm´s grow very fast and thats why they are all over the market in europe. I´ve never seen a Lophocereus of the size the tbm are usually being sold at. If you are in doubt, its much more likely you have a tbm than a Lophocereus.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Evil Genius

[naja naja]

But I don't think a clone can change its genetics can it?

 

Well, yes they can and do, with a relitively high level of frequency. They are called "bud sports". I am not aware if they can occur on cacti, but I know are very common on fruit tree's for example. Infact many of the fruit we buy at the supermarkets these days is the result of a bud sport. For example, research the navel orange. Every single variant of that orange is the result of a bud sport and not a sexual method of reproduction. This is also true for the red delicious, (I think) being a red bud sport of the standard delicious. Or vice versa, or with a diff variety of apple, but many of the red varieties of apple are the result of bud sports. Very interesting. The most commonly seen bud sport for most people (well, most noticable anyways) would be when u see a green branch (bud sport) growing on a veriagated plant. Just as the original variagated one would have once been a bud sport from a green one. If u were to propagate from the green branch/bud sport, then the resulting clones

[chilli]

Well, yes they can and do, with a relitively high level of frequency. They are called "bud sports". I am not aware if they can occur on cacti, but I know are very common on fruit tree's for example. Infact many of the fruit we buy at the supermarkets these days is the result of a bud sport. For example, research the navel orange. Every single variant of that orange is the result of a bud sport and not a sexual method of reproduction. This is also true for the red delicious, (I think) being a red bud sport of the standard delicious. Or vice versa, or with a diff variety of apple, but many of the red varieties of apple are the result of bud sports. Very interesting. The most commonly seen bud sport for most people (well, most noticable anyways) would be when u see a green branch (bud sport) growing on a veriagated plant. Just as the original variagated one would have once been a bud sport from a green one. If u were to propagate from the green branch/bud sport, then the resulting clones

 

Yes very interesting, and I guess it makes sense now that I think about it.. I was just getting mixed up thinking about how genetic mutations that occur in a human are not passed on, but I guess if we could clone the tissue that mutated it woulkd of course continue!

[posko]

well! thanx for ur answers! in a few days i should recive that bridgesii columnar (4 to 8) i could't resist to buy it coz is a very rare form!and hopefully it will have a long lasting life

with kids and everything! my plan is to plant a log orizontally so it may gonna have multiple sprouts!

[dionysus]

i recently came across this japanese site that lists a plant that looks like the specimens from 12 - 14 and labels it as trichocereus macragonus monstuosa.

http://members3.jcom.home.ne.jp/yano_yano/taniku.htm , it is near the bottom and then again at the very bottom.

i wonder if some of the TBM or lophocereus schotii monstrose sold are actualy trichocereus macragonus...

dio

[Evil Genius]

i wonder if some of the TBM or lophocereus schotii monstrose sold are actualy trichocereus macragonus...

Hi Dionysus, the ones posted on the pic labeled as Macrogonus are clearly Lophocereus Schottii monstrose and Bridgesii monstrose. The fact that the guy has two types of cacti on the same picture with only one label should speak for itself. He just doesnt know better. The spines that those two forms put out from time to time are characteristic for the species.

[Evil Genius]

Another reason he has two types in the same pot could be that the thick monstrose labeled as macrogonus is actually a Hulks Dick Lophocereus Monstrose and he got the label wrong. Woudl make sense to put two types of Lophocereus monstrose in the same pot. Cant really see that from the picture because the thickness lies somehwere in between.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Evil Genius

[dionysus]

hi EG. the pictures at the bottom in the shared pots are a different plant to the one roughly 2/3rds down the page in a pot of its own, also labeled macragonus. this one to me doesn't look like any other lophocereus schotii monstrose i have seen and it is sad then when you click on it for an enlarged view it is the others in the shared pot you see. if it is all one persons collection, then it is pretty extensive and (as far as i could see) otherwise labeled correctly, so i just thought perhaps there was this macro that was confused as TBM or LSM by a collector who was already familiar with one of those plants. in picture 12 in this thread the plants don't seem to have the same long and gnarley spines as other TBMs seem too so i thought perhaps another species like peruvianus/macragonus may fit the bill.

i understand it is likely i am incorrect, but i thought twas worth raising anyway.

dio

edit: also, about 1/4 the way down that japenese website is a correctly labeled lophocereus schottii monstrose, they don't seem that uneducated about their plants.

Edited March 7, 2012 by dionysus

[Evil Genius]

You know, the fact that someone lives in Japan doesnt make him a good cactus grower. Not talking about identificating them. There are some great growers there but there also are people that wouldnt know a Lophocereus Monstrose from a Trichocereus Monstrose. The forms we are talking about are known, confirmed and put out spines from time to time that give away their identity. I had all the types on the pics and i know what im talking about. There are two types of Lophocereus monstroses and depending on the thickness of the plant in the middle, he either has one or two of them on the group picture. The ones on the left and the right are this form http://www.cactus-ar...i_mostruosa.htm or this form: http://www.cactuspedia.info/schede/LOPHOCEREUS/Lophocereus_schotii/Lophocereus_schotti_mostruosa_mieckleyanus/lophocereus_mieckleyanus_mostrousus.htm

and the one in the middle either is the Bridgesii monstrose or the Lophocereus Monstrose that you can find here: http://www.cactusped...i_big_penis.htm

Edited March 7, 2012 by Evil Genius

[fyzygy]

Just to complicate things, a Chinese succulent nursery offers what looks like TBM ... as "Eulychnia castanea" 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/393691943972?hash=item5ba9de5424:g:lWEAAOSwiYBgea0X