Sceletium for gallbladder pain

[Torsten]

I've been struggling with an inflamed gallbladder the last week, taking nurofen non-stop and 20mg of prednisone/day just to keep the pain managable and the swelling from forcing a trip to hospital. Doc hasn't confirmed gallstones yet [ultrasound on monday, but given this is in retrospect my approx 5th attack in the last year it is likely to indeed be gallstones. I don't have a problem with the idea of gallbladder removal, but I have a problem with the timing, especially since operating on a swollen gallbladder increases the chances they can't do it by keyhole surgery. So I've been trying various herbs and meds to not only settle the gallbladder down and prevent infection, but also to protect the liver. Not sure how well it is working, but as I've managed to stay out of hospital so far I am pleased.

Today however something curious happened. I decided I needed to sample a new product that I had been sent and the supplier needed a decision by monday. I hate smoking, but forced myself to smoke a pinch of sceletium 5x extract powder in a dry bong. Expecting to be in pain from coughing fits I was very surprised when about 2 minutes after inhaling my pain subsided dramatically. Soon after I also felt that mild relaxation that kanna produces in my arms and legs.

Now, 5 hours later, the pain had just returned so I smoked another pinch and again it went.

The speed of action would indicate that it doesn't have any sort of antiinflammatory effect. It also hasn't dampened the pain from a scratch I got on a piece of fence wire today, so I doubt this is a painkiller.

I think the effect is actually simply due to muscle relaxation. The gallbladder is designed to contract to expel the bile as a meal passes though the gut. It appears that the pain associated with a blockage of the ducts [which is what my doc presumes it is] might be worsened by the muscle contraction of the gallbladder.

I was wondering if this muscle relaxing effect might be of benefit to people with other muscle or tendon tension associated pain so figured I'd post about it. It's certainly working wonders for the gallbladder pain.

[Amazonian]

Very interesting Torsten. Maybe you could patent it ?... re-package and sell as "Torstens Gallbladder Eeze Smoking Blend" .

Sorry that you are unwell. Pain sux hey.

[coin]

My mum gets killer attacks where I assume stones get expelled from the gallbladder and lodge in the duct/neck/Hartmann's pouch...I think the neck/duct keeps spasming on the stone, trapping it...the longer this goes on for, the longer the recovery time (irritation/inflammation). A strong tea made from fennel and cardamom gives an almost instant & massive relief from the actual attack but in the following days ibuprofen is all that really helps. I get her to take a fair bit of magnesium as well.

I don't know if the stone falls back into the gallbladder or eventually passes through...I guess sometimes one sometimes the other. She keeps saying that she doesn't want surgery but I'm thinking eventually the entire gallbladder will be filled with stones and it will hardly be able to contract at all, or every time it moves will trigger another attack.

Thanks for the tip about the sceletium

Edited January 14, 2012 by coin

[Psylo]

This is an interesting observation. My partner has recently been prescribed an NSAID to assist with pain related to a suspected overactive autoimmune system. While your early first hand findings suggest a lack of anti-inflammatory properties to kanna, I am going to make the suggestion next time to self administer sceletium (regular, traditionally prepared 1x) via the nasal route, and report back on the outcome, if any. Said partner is familiar with dosing on sceletium already, so no problem there. Actually I have approx 200g from this years harvest& preparation, I may even make a crude extract myself for this purpose.

Torsten if you dislike smoking, please try the insufflation method and report back any findings. For the purpose of mood enhancement, sceletium is much more effective via this route, and you may find the same with the pain relieving properties.

[Torsten]

I considered snuffing, but this stuff was really coarse and not enough to grind fine in my grinder. Snuffing is definitely far more effective for the SSRI effect.

coin, might be a good idea to get an ultrasound so you can see the size of the stones. up to 10mm they get passed fairly easily and it might be worthwhile to adopt a diet that is designed to soften the stones [malic acid] and to expell them more vigorously. Maybe even some TCM formula?

anything over 15mm she might as well start making plans for the operation because it is far better to have it done while not inflamed.

And before anyone suggest the Hulda Clarke Gall bladder cleanse again please read this :

http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=413022

[coin]

I didn't read that link, but I assume it's the debunking of the olive oil flush....that the supposed passed stone products are basically solidified olive oil.

But still, surely intentionally taking muscle relaxants and stimulating strong contractions of the gallbladder will cause it to expel stones that are small enough to pass through the duct.

There do seem to be a number of people that acknowledge the 'fake stones' product but after doing the flush report far fewer or no further episodes. I assume these people have much smaller stones.

I never would recommend it to anyone because I always thought it would be quite likely that a large stone would just lodge in the duct and they'd be straight off for surgery which is usually exactly what people are trying to avoid. I'm sure I've seen pics of much smaller, harder/different looking stones 'recovered' from the flush method that looked very different to the typical green blobby fake stones.

But yeah, the whole washing your feces in a colander and the thrill of finding the evil gallstones is very much like the fad/scam of the psyllium/bentonite colon cleanses where people excitedly post photos online of their flushed so-called mucoid-plaques....the same purging thrill that drives the detox industry.

I've been looking into TCM formulas (specifically "li dan pai shi") ... the thing that worries me is that they all contain cholagogue herbs and I'm worried it would just precipitate an attack. It's that balance between keeping the bile flowing but not triggering forceful contractions that seems tricky. I'd be much more likely to experiment on myself (if I had this problem) but the pain looks so crippling & intense that it makes me a bit nervous when dealing with others. I suppose you could start really low & slow with dosage.

One other thing I come across a fair bit is the use of Phyllanthus niruri (chanca de piedra?)... best effect on kidney stones, but there seem to be a lot of anecdotal claims for also treating biliary colic/cholecystitis

The ultrasound is a good idea...it's been done years ago but would be good to see how things are going now. I'm not sure how accurate/easy the imaging would be with a lot of abdominal fat.

It seems like no surgeon wants to just remove the stones because it's such a short time before they see the patient back again & full of stones once more...but is it possible to insist on that? I got the impression that the meds (CDCA/UDCA) and lithotripsy are pretty useless.

It's very interesting to me that you have very little worry about cholecystectomy ... that's reassuring...I assume you'd want to supplement with bile acids/enzymes, etc?

[Sallubrious]

I can see you don't want to hear about it, by here's my two cents

I did the liver flush and it worked for me.

I didn't do a forensic analysis of my crap to prove it worked but the pain is gone and that's proof enough for me.

For me the pain came in waves and would last 3 or 4 hours, sometimes much longer.

I think the pre-flush preparation with the apple juice probably did most of the work because of the malic acid in the juice.

When I did mine I layed on my side and I felt some major contractions in that area while I was visualising the stones being expelled and I believe I felt them coming out. Who knows maybe I was just having myself on ?, I'd read both sides of the debate and it seemed like the lesser of two evils to me. - Removing an essential organ vs drinking a bit of crap. Removing an organ is last resort surgery in my mind.

I've been pain free for over 12 month's and that relief started the day the "stones" were flushed

Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those doing it.

Edited January 14, 2012 by SallyD

[Zaka]

Irie,

Stones!

Lignum Vitae......powdered leaf!

Respect,

Z

[Sallubrious]

Phyllanthus niruri aka Chanca piedra or break stone has been used as a traditional Peruvian treatment for Gallstones and kidney stones.

No personal experience just an avenue for investigation.

http://www.wholeworl...ak-stone-remedy

[toast]

I just snuffed a small amount of Sceletium & pain in back that has been troubling me all weekend has totally cleared up.

Thanks for the tip Torsten - hope you get on top of your gallbladder problems.

[Torsten]

surely intentionally taking muscle relaxants and stimulating strong contractions of the gallbladder will cause it to expel stones that are small enough to pass through the duct.

Absolutely! There are a few problems with this though. if the stones are >15mm they are almost certainly not going to pass, meaning they will block the duct. This can then very quickly lead to 3 different severe emergencies which are the main reason why I would NEVER recommend this flush to anyone without medical supervision.

1) The bile backs up into the liver causing jaundice and all the dramas that can cause.

2) The bile becomes infected and travels into the liver or pancreas causing septecemia with severe consequences [usually loss of large amounts of liver tissue.

3) The bile backs up into the pancreatic duct where it within hours reach the pancreas which will immediately digest itself. If death is avoided then lifelong diabetes is guaranteed.

This flush is simply not as harmless as peopel make it out to be. However the risk can be minimised. For example, it is probably a good idea NOT to do the flush during an attack. Swollen ducts reduce the size of stones that can be expelled. Also there is more risk of bacterial contamination during an attack.

There do seem to be a number of people that acknowledge the 'fake stones' product but after doing the flush report far fewer or no further episodes. I assume these people have much smaller stones.

Ther eis a certains et of people who MAY be helped by this flush. However the risk to others is far to great to recommend this wihtout knowing more details first. I'd never attempt such a flush without an ultrasound for example. if you have 25mm stones and try to do the flush you are asking for a medical emergency.

Stones get flushed all the time, but there is no evidence that the Hulda flush actually promotes this any more than a fatty meal does. In fact, if it did, then we would have records of people noticing their nicely washed REAL stones. They look quite different to the olive oil stones.

But yeah, the whole washing your feces in a colander and the thrill of finding the evil gallstones is very much like the fad/scam of the psyllium/bentonite colon cleanses where people excitedly post photos online of their flushed so-called mucoid-plaques....the same purging thrill that drives the detox industry.

This is stupidity beyond belief. How does this even cement itself in the minds of people? Anyone who has ever done a colonoscopy knows this is all lies yet even those people fall for it.

One other thing I come across a fair bit is the use of Phyllanthus niruri (chanca de piedra?)... best effect on kidney stones, but there seem to be a lot of anecdotal claims for also treating biliary colic/cholecystitis

I have a couple of friends who had gallstones and who wanted this to avoid surgery. Both of them gave into surgery within 6 months. I know this is a small sample, but I'd rather work from a small sample of medically confirmed diagnosis than from a large sample of uncofirmed diagnosis. let's not forget that a lot of gallbladder attacks are misdiagnosed or have nothing to do with stones. Infections of the gallduct are just as painful and are pretty common. That's why I limited my first post in terms of not getting a full diagnosis till the ultrasound on monday.

The ultrasound is a good idea...it's been done years ago but would be good to see how things are going now. I'm not sure how accurate/easy the imaging would be with a lot of abdominal fat.

You calling me fat? LOL. The gallbladder sits so far up that I don't think fat deposits are really in the way much.

It seems like no surgeon wants to just remove the stones because it's such a short time before they see the patient back again & full of stones once more...but is it possible to insist on that?

I will certainly be asking that. While I don't see a problem with removal, I'd rather not add variables to my digestive problems. So making it all work normally again would be my preference. It could just be a matter of $$, ie maybe medicare won't pay for removal of stones.

It's very interesting to me that you have very little worry about cholecystectomy ... that's reassuring...I assume you'd want to supplement with bile acids/enzymes, etc?

Like I said, I've had friends go through this, including one who held off for many years and let it affect his whole lifestyle and quality of life for that time. Then surgery finally became the only option and he is still shaking his head about how stupid he was to delay for so long.

if you know how the gallbladder works then it is easy to adjust your food intake accordingly. Yes, supplements would be needed for a majorly fatty meal if this otherwise might cause indigestion, but then again it might actually be a good thing not to absorb all that fat ;)

I think that mostly this can be managed by a healthy diet. Certainly my friends can now eat a much LESS healthy diet than they were on before the op ;)

I am actually more concerned about having bile in my gut wihtout food as this can lead to other gut problems - somethign I would like to avoid. I guess more frequent smaller meals can fix that.

[Torsten]

I'd read both sides of the debate and it seemed like the lesser of two evils to me.

Lifelong diabetes or liver cirrhosis is the lesser evil?

Removing an essential organ vs drinking a bit of crap. Removing an organ is last resort surgery in my mind.

It's not an essential organ. Far from it. Bottom line is that people who have had their gallbladder removed have less problems than people who keep them with stones in them.I

am not keen on the idea of removal either, but to quote YOU, I prefer the lesser of two evils ;)

I've been pain free for over 12 month's and that relief started the day the "stones" were flushed

How do you know you had stones? did you have an ultrasound? Did you have one afterwards to see if there were any less stones?

I am not against the flush. I am against the deception and the risk of it. I think the risk can be managed if it wasn't for the deception. ie, get an ultrasound first to make sure the size is passable [

Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those doing it.

Not even if the result is potentially fatal?

[Sallubrious]

And surgery is not without risk or potentially fatal ?

I know a few people with horror stories of complications after having cholecystectomies.

No I didn't have the ultrasound after the flush just the one to diagnose that I actually did have stones, my biggest stone was estimated to be 18mm.

I put stones in inverted commas as I didn't investigate to find out if they were actually stones, that statement was entirely ambiguous. There was no way I was going to sift through my crap. I never once suggested the olive oil conglomerate was evidence of gallstones and did not intend to deceive anyone with my statement.

I've had several surgeries fail and had complications develop, so for me surgery was a last resort.

You've got to do what you think is right for you.

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

I dont have many details as such, but here is what I remember from my Nan's gallbladder problems..

its really quite simple, she accepted a "flush/detox" remedy from her GP and Pharmacist, no ultrasounds were done (small rural township) but the doctor was convinced it was gallstones. 4-5 hours later she was being ambulance driven to the nearest base hospital and underwent surgery and removal of her bladder. i remember looking at the stones they let her keep, and they were fucking huuge.

Like i said, i dont have many details and I can make a call to her if people have genuine specific questions, but yeah I'd be taking torstens advice and seeking an ultrasound first.

d00d

[Torsten]

And surgery is not without risk or potentially fatal ?

Keyhole surgery gall bladder removal is far safer than the risk of keeping a gallbladder with large stones. The risk of death or serious consequence from not removing large stones is far greater than the surgery.

However, open surgery is more risky. IN many cases where there is large swelling, leakage, or damage to liver or pancreas open surgery is the only option. So by delaying fairly safe keyhole surgery you are dramatically increasing your chances of needing the much more risky open surgery.

Surgery fatality is almost always due to infection or aspiration. Aspiration risks can be minimised and now run at about 1 in 100,000, most of which are elderly and most because they cheated/lied/forgot.

Infection can also be minimised, for example by being healthy when deciding to get the surgery rather than having septecemia or compromsied liver at the time [which is likely during a gall stone attack].

I know a few people with horror stories of complications after having cholecystectomies.

It always depends on the doctor and hospital too. if I didn't have private health cover I'd still fork out the cash for a private hospital operation and I'd be picky.

No I didn't have the ultrasound after the flush just the one to diagnose that I actually did have stones, my biggest stone was estimated to be 18mm.

One of the things that likely happens during the flushes is that the strong contractions rearrange the stones in the gallbladder. Before they are often neatly sorted against each other like a puzzle. This means it is more likely for the entrance to be blocked. By jumbling them up they create more space between them and hence more possible movement. It also makes it less likely for the entrance to be blocked. personally I think this is the main reason why the flush gives medium term relief.

I never once suggested the olive oil conglomerate was evidence of gallstones and did not intend to deceive anyone with my statement.

Sorry, did not mean to imply that you did. I think the advocates of the flush and especially the ones who rely on the oliveoil aggrgates as proof, are liars. Their lack of the understanding of the risks makes them dangerous liars.

I've had several surgeries fail and had complications develop, so for me surgery was a last resort.

This absolutely has to be a personal decision taking all factors into account. For example, I am concerned because I have a very slow wound healing capacity while not on prednisone. However because conventional wisdom claims that prednisone inhibits the immune system I am not allowed to take it after surgery. This is a difficult decision because on one hand I know I will scar more and the risk of infection is higher, while on the other the doc could become not liable for any fuck ups if I don't adhere to his instructions.

My main motivation to proceed is that I really don't want open surgery. I feel this is the greatest risk because of the healing/scarring problems I have. i also don't want surgery during an attack, especially if my liver was affected. They are my priorities and they may not be everyone else's priorities. I also likely have fluoroquinolone resistant bacteria in my system, so that doesn't leave a lot of antibiotic options in case of septecemia or infection. Another reason why I don't want to wait till my options have run out, but probably not something most others would be affected by.

[Psylo]

No I didn't have the ultrasound after the flush just the one to diagnose that I actually did have stones,

 

If you had tests before and confirmed the presence of gallstones, then you are in a very good position now to determine whether the oil flush did the job, by going for another test ! Please dont take this as "Ok, prove yourself", but it's potentially an intriguing counter discussion to the treatment being bunk if you have an ultrasound and are in the clear. If you ever decide to do so, let us know !

Obviously the stated secondary dangers of this treatment should be considered by other readers following the discussion.

[coin]

thanks again t

yeah, the flush sites are mental...though some of them do suggest strongly to ascertain size of stones

interesting what you say about the stones rearranging...hadn't thought of that

being able to just have the stones removed would be an ideal 'fresh start'...I'm not that optimistic about lifestyle/diet changes for a lot of people though to do what they can about minimising the chances of the whole situation recurring, and I guess a lot of surgeons feel that even more strongly.

And no, I wasn't calling you fat ... was talking about my mum

[Zaka]

Irie,

Stones!

Lignum Vitae......powdered leaf!

Respect,

Z

 

Irie,

Let expand on my experiences.

I have used it successfully myself & for friends.

No need for surgery. No pain. Stones are dissolved.

Capsulize the powdered leaf about half a gram a day.

Done in about 3 weeks.

I discovered this from a herbalist in Grenada.

Not sure if there is any documentation to support this???

Respect,

Z

[Torsten]

zaka, did you have the stones confirmed by ultrasound before the treatment? how about afterwards? You state categorically that stones are dissolved and the only way you would know this is if you had 2 ultrasounds. Anything else is speculation. keeping in mind that many people have no problems with their stones for many years. So any treatment that stops the immediate inflammation of blockage could be seen as a stone dissolving cure.

I am definitely keen to try herbal methods, but would prefer some proof of efficacy or at least proof of concept. To be honest I can't see any method that would dissolve stones in such a short timeframe. They are pretty hard little buggers that don't even dissolve in pure organic acids easily - so dilute ones are even less likely to help. I also fail to see how a single method can dissolve 3 different types of stones. That would be like something dissolving fats, salts, and pigments all at the same time.

zaka, I can't find a single reference to support the claim for Lignum Vitae.

coin - as you said, most people simply do not change their lifestyles even when faced with the inevitable. However, most people I know who've had gallstones are neither overweight nor do they eat unhealthy. In fact one was on a fat free vegan diet for years and still ended up in hospital. So I wonder just how much these habits really matter.

[coin]

I thought the majority of gallstones were cholesterol stones.

I don't know if I'd call a fat free vegan diet a healthy diet. Surely the lack of fat (which is not a normal diet in my opinion) would not keep the bile flowing, regularly flushing out the "sludge/sand" .. A vegan diet can be very carb/grain heavy. etc but I see your point. The research I've read seems to say that hormonal factors play a big part - I thought that's why women are especially prone? also race, etc.

I suppose I just make an assumption based on the people I have met who have symptomatic gallstones. What is the standard medical mnemonic? Forty/Fifty, Fat, Female/Fertile (multiple pregnancies), Flatulent...something like that. The people I've seen with this problem are exactly that...overweight women who love eating brie, cream, wine, meats, pasta, crusty white bread with butter, desserts ("all the good things in life"), major lack of whole foods, etc. (I always go with the C's: cookies, cake, coke, chocolate, chips, cheese). But I guess it's only a handful of people overall..I probably meet as many fitting that criteria who don't have symptomatic gallstone problems. I only met one guy who had gallstones and the persistent attacks he would have, caused him to ignore what doctors late told him was a pretty serious heart attack.

Anyway, I don't want to drag my curiosity out any further when the topic is sceletium...I'll be sure to get some.

You've convinced me to talk to my mum about this as an option while she's relatively healthy rather than the chance of some sort of complicated emergency surgery...though the topic raises all sorts of distrust with mainstream medicine.

[Torsten]

The fat free vegan diet was recommended by health care professionals as a way to manage the gallstones. I agree that it doesn't make sense as it would not stimulate contraction.

All stones contain cholesterol, but if it is less than 20% then they are called pigment stones.If it is 20-80% then they are called mixed stones. Calcium is also in all stones, so this could be just as much of a treatment target.

I've got a pretty cooperative GP, so I might see if there is some option to turn this into an experiment. eg if I have small stones I might do the flush and then have another scan. Then do a combined herbal treatment and do another scan. etc I am sure he'd be just as keen to find out as he has to deal with these suggestions on a daily basis in this hippie town.

[spunwhirllin]

I've had gallstones for 8 years now,confirmed by an ultrasound.

I've done the magnesium sulfate/olive oil/grapefruit juice flush several times,all resulting in the expulsion of stones.This in itself dramatically reduced pain.I've not done this for five years now.

Yes, the main concern is blocking the ducts.This has happened to me twice,and you can tell when it has happened by the absence of dark bile in your excrement.

I still have stones,however the constant supplemental use of malic acid has dramatically cut down on the volume of stones,and frequency of pain.

Diet is the most important aspect,but I have yet to aknowledge this for my own good.

[Sallubrious]

If you had tests before and confirmed the presence of gallstones, then you are in a very good position now to determine whether the oil flush did the job, by going for another test ! Please dont take this as "Ok, prove yourself", but it's potentially an intriguing counter discussion to the treatment being bunk if you have an ultrasound and are in the clear. If you ever decide to do so, let us know !

 

I wonder about that myself from time to time too. For all I know I could have had a blocked duct & the "flush" could have squeezed the blockage back into my gallbladder leaving me asymptomatic.

I don't know how I'd go asking my quack for another ultrasound because now I'm feeling fine. I suppose I could bung on another attack and get it done that way, but I really couldn't be fucked to be honest.

Coin indicated in his last post distrust with mainstream medicine, I can't help but wonder how much the public hospital system is to blame for that attitude. Those places have become a magnet for incompetent bozos.

@Torsten my distrust in surgeons/surgery is entirely based on personal experience with the public hospital system, which is absolutely appalling these days.

If I had health insurance my attitude would be different & I'd have a lot more trust.

[Torsten]

I've done the magnesium sulfate/olive oil/grapefruit juice flush several times,all resulting in the expulsion of stones.

Not arguing, but I really want to know how you have come to that conclusion. Everyone states this, but no one has any proof. Well, other than the odd single stone that they find or the masses of false one. So, did you find real stones or did you do another ultrasound?

Yes, the main concern is blocking the ducts.This has happened to me twice,and you can tell when it has happened by the absence of dark bile in your excrement.

That's how I first suspected what was wrong 2 attacks ago. This seems to be my first symptom, sometimes not followed by pain for several days. There has been no bilirubin present for 7 days now. This was my doc's greates concern, because I started excreting it in urine, which indicates it has backed right up into the liver and is going via the bloodstream to the kidney's instead. Luckily that only lasted 24 hours.

I still have stones,however the constant supplemental use of malic acid has dramatically cut down on the volume of stones,and frequency of pain.

again, is this volume confirmed by ultrasound or just symptoms?

Goddamn radiologist didn't tell me I had to fast for this, so when I confirmed my appointment this morning - after I had half a glass of milk - he basically said he couldn't do it. Try again 24h later.

[Zaka]

Irie,

Sadly it seems the guy in Grenada has since died.

His name was Denis Noel & here's something I found on the matter.

* Lignum Vitae

* Guaiacum officinale

* Lignum vitae means "long life" in Latin, from which comes one of its common names, Tree of Life.

* The tree which is the National flower of Jamaica is one of the most useful in the world. Its glossy leaves are a rich green, and its abundant flowers range in color from purple to blue. Virtually all parts of the tree body, gum, bark, fruit, leaves and blossom all serve some useful purpose.

* Lignum vitae is indigenous to South America, Central America, the Caribbean, and southern Florida. It was exported to Europe from the early sixteenth century because the Europeans perceived it as a miracle cure for syphilis and hung pieces of the trees bark in churches as objects of devotion. The wood is one of the hardest in the world and is so rich with fat and resins that objects made from it are self-lubricating and nearly impervious to water. Explaining why the wood will sink when placed in water.

* In recent times, scientists have found that two of the resin's most active ingredients, guaiaretic and guaiaconic acids, are effective anti-inflammatory agents and local stimulants. Because of the anti-inflammatory property, the substances are used in pharmaceutical preparations for sore throats and for inflammatory diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis. Lignum vitae is also diuretic, sweat-inducing and speeds the elimination of toxins, which makes it valuable for treating gout.

* Most recently, in Grenada, it has been found that Lignum Vitae is good for getting rid of kidney stones and gall stones. Although not medically verified experience has proven that lignum vitae actually gets rid of these stones by breaking them down, allowing it to pass though …………..

* The Lignum vitae tea bags produced by Noelville

Hope that gives a little perspective!!

Respect,

Z