drugs v meditation

[nabraxas]

this is a debate i have been hearing for the last 20 years, & which has probably been going on for 2000 years.

i agree there are many states ov mind accessable through meditation, breathing techniques, sensory depravation, brainwave monitoring, timed strobes etc..

i have tried many ov them w/great success & believe mild visionary states are possible, upto, say a mild LSD/mushie trip.

for effects beyond that drugs need to be employed.ALL traditions ov spiritual practice employ drugs directly in their rites. ALL ov them. many also have drug motiffs.

the spread ov plants containing chemicals that have profound effects on human consciousness- yet seem to be unused by the plant( think opuim in poppies, THC in MJ, psiliocybin in shrooms- why?) is world wide, & (the big question) surely no coincidence?

personally i beleve these things were put here to use. eventually to discover an alternative to outerspace flight, & open the gates 'tween dimensions- but that's just me.

[Guest Mesqualero]

I think it is possible to achieve extremely high states of conciousness without drugs.. however unless you want to devote the rest of your life in strict meditation, contemplation etc the best way to get there is via a key.

I see the entheogens of this earth as keys, they all unlock the door to some part of our brain which we have not used before... once the door is open however there is no reason why that state cannot be achieved without drugs... its just a matter of being able to remember..and focus the attention...

[gerbil]

http://dog.net.uk/claude/index.html

articles by claude rifat,

excellent reading

[nabraxas]

mes- i can't really accept that all states can be gained thru meditation alone. there are reasons why many medative traditions employ combinations of ganja, wine, incense, trippy mandalas/yantras, drumming & chanting etc.

i believe that the mind does remember these expeeriences & may try to repeat them, but w/out the key, the door only half opens. flashbacks are a perfect example ov this- the brain obviously remembers something, but the expeerience is like a memory ov tripping- not fully fleshed out.

gerbil- thanx for the link, v.interesting.

[woof woof woof]

Very good question...... that is why it prolly been around very long

I have only one thing to say regarding this .... "whatever chokes your chicken!"

I myself, heh, a little bit of everything seems to keep me on the right track just nice......

drugs kickstarted the road to self realization in a way, but what really blasted me away..... was a chat with a person, while on a coctail of chems...

All he said was, "Everything is energy" (treat everything like you want to be treated, with unconitional love and understanding.)

I choose both, I find that the ignorance regarding drugs and drug useage are two of the things that I feel/know that just need attention in modern day society.

The one simply doesn't exist without the other....

All religions have their roots with enthogens......even chimpanzees or other monkeys get high ....

Here's a link to help show you what I mean to say..... http://www.elftrance.com/

enjoy

Heheh, so is meditation better then dope usage to reach the altered states....

Answer that for yourselves!

Be well.

I'm feeling quite p s y c h e d e l i c today

[doklikit]

"...was a chat with a person, while on a coctail of chems... All he said was, "Everything is energy" (treat everything like you want to be treated, with unconitional love and understanding.)"

Brian very interesting!

Near Death Experiencers universally report the following:

"...that they are never judged by the beings of light,but feel only love and acceptance in their prescence.The only judgement that ever takes place is self-judgement and arises solely out of the NDEer's own feelings of guilt and repentance.....NDEer's stress the message they receive is that we must learn to replace anger with love,learn to love more,learn to forgive and love everyone unconditionally,and learn that we in turn are loved........That is why we have been placed here on earth say the beings,to learn to love is the key. Even children return from the near - death realm with this message firmly impressed in their thoughts.

.......The second thing the beings emphasise is knowledge."

page 250 "The Holographic Universe"Michael Talbot. by

[toby]

I see the entheogens of this earth as keys, they all unlock the door to some part of our brain which we have not used before.from mesqualero,

i think i like the software analogy better than the lock and key one, with the lock and key idea yeah the chemicals seem unused by the plants, waiting for a human to use them to unlock a door in their head, the software analogy implies something intrinsic(within the chemical), which may be compatible with various physiological formats.

[nabraxas]

turps- please excuse my ignorance, but could you expound & explain the software analogy abit more. i've not heard it before. thankyou.

[toby]

As a 'wet computer' designer wouldn't it make sense to have a facility to allow the many PC's to tap back to base to the great grand daddy supercomputer, rather than have each pc store universal knowledge?Perhaps drugs(I hate that word) provide that link for a moment.quote from dolikilt(spelling may be incorrect)in the dragonfyre thread of this forum.

[toby]

i think i read the software thing in the happy high herbs mission statement, like with a lock and key the experience is behind a door in your brain, but it seems more like the information? comes chemically, just like you said really,quote-the brain obviously remembers something, but the expeerience is like a memory ov tripping- not fully fleshed out.

[nabraxas]

ahh yes, now you mention it i have read that before. it strikes me as quite probable, but for people who have not expeerienced psychedelics i think they would find it a harder analogy to comprehend than the lock & key one.

i read a signature the other day that went something like-"ethnogens- the nanotech messangers of the gia matrix"- i thought that was pretty good too.

[licorice]

drugs vs meditation? why stop there? there are a multitude of ways to alter consciousness. one of the most profound experiences ive ever had is after ive been practicing a difficult piece on the clarinet, and suddenly, its like a revelation and my fingers just start playing the notes. if i stop and think about it i fuck up, its like the music is coming straight through me, if i stop and think about what im doing then i cant do it. you have to give yourself up completely to the music and the instrument, as soon as your ego interfers then the experience is lost. its like the instrument begins to teach you directly, and you just have to go with it. its the same experience as when youre living in a foreign country and you start becomming fluent in a language, you no longer have to think about what youre saying, conjugating verbs or whatever, you just start thinking and speaking in the language, immersed in it, suddenly the language takes over and starts propagating itself through your nervous system. its like the wall (ego?) between you and what youre trying to do suddenly collapses. for me the best psychedelic experiences are exactly the same, you lose yourself in the experience and let the chemical teacher come to the surface, its like the chemical interfaces with your nervous system and suddenly there is no sensible distinction between you and it, youre the embodiment of the personality hidden in the molecular structure of the "drug" as it binds to the receptors in your brain, a composite entity. same thing can happen when you lose yourself in dance, listennig to/playing music, reading a book that you are totally absorbed in (philosophys good, especially the totally mind bending stuff like wittgenstien thats hard to grasp consciously), singing/chanting, prayer/ritual (or any mental discipline that you lose yourself in: meditation, sensory deprivation, repetition of a word or action etc.), learning a new skill and becoming proficient enough in it to no longer have to worry about what youre doing, but can start changing it and making it your own, sex, pain (between consenting adults ), endurance activities, martial arts/yoga/tai chi, pushing yourself to do anything you wouldnt usually do, or losing yourself in pretty much anything creative. when the bottom of my mind drops out and i start falling through the gap, that for me is the ultimate human experience: total freedom, totally lost in the present. drugs are only one (very reliable) method of achieving this.

[Darklight]

Originally posted by licorice:

one of the most profound experiences ive ever had is after ive been practicing a difficult piece on the clarinet, and suddenly, its like a revelation and my fingers just start playing the notes. if i stop and think about it i fuck up,

Definitely Had it happen myself, suddenly the music catches you, everything makes sense. Once you realise you don't believe what's happening it stops. Kinda like Wil.E.Coyote, mid-air

[licorice]

"Kinda like Wil.E.Coyote mid-air"

or coitius interruptis (or is it premature ejaculation ). yep, the hardest thing is learning to disconnect your mind from worrying about what your doing and how, and not getting frustrated with yourself when you do. sometimes it helps to have a short break and come back to it later. in this respect ive found the clarinet a more understanding partner than most humans! like everything, it gets easier to maintain with practice.

[This message has been edited by licorice (edited 03 January 2003).]

[nabraxas]

liquorice- i totally agree w/all that you have said; music, exercise, reading, sex,- can all be types ov meditation in a sense( i partly disagree w/the language thing, because i don't think an adult ever fully integarates every nuance ov a foriegn language even after 20 years full immersion- but thats just me, & off topic really.).

but that's at a very basic level. ie- imho, learning to play a piece ov music fluently, w/out worrying where the fingers are going but just letting them go & feeling it all come together is akin to learning how to still the mind in meditation- the 1st level.

learning to love a piece ov music so that when you play it you become 1 with it, capable ov filling every phrase w/emotion,etc is akin to a higher level ov rapture within meditation.

the point is that these intense states ov oneness & rapture take many many years to achieve, in meditation & the arts- but not w/drugs.

[licorice]

warning: long rambling post. possibly intersting

ok, drugs continue to be an important part of my life, and i am not suggesting that they are inferior to 'meditation' of whatever form. however, the fact remains that, for whatever reasons, i am using them less and less now than before. i have no problem with drug use whether it is for 'personal growth' or recreation, but i think the dichotomy presented here as 'drugs vs. meditation' is an artificial one. for me taking drugs is a form of meditation. one quality that distinguishes drugs from other medatative experiences is their distinctive profile: quick onset, intense peak, rapid (and occasionally unpleasant) drop off. this makes them useful for suddenly throwing the doors of perception wide open. however, the problem is that because of their relatively brief duration, many people find it hard to integrate the experience (which may have been one of their most intense and inherently meaningful) into their day to day lives (eg. most of us have met people who take a lot of x on weekends and are all hugs and smiles, but are grumpy self-absorbed bastards during the week). which is ultimately more benificial to personal growth; an experience of brief but vivid intensity which the individual nevertheless finds difficult to integrate into their life, or a more gentle series of experiences (of varying nature) that actually constitute a persons life. by this i mean that if you actively enjoy the work you do, enjoy your recreation and relationships to the hilt, then your life becomes a sort of meditation, and you are constantly growing from it. not to say that intense peak experiences arent desirable, for me personally they are, but they are just one experience of many that helps me enjoy and find subjective meaning in my life. the question for me is what am i doing between bouts of intense chemical revelation? if the answer is nothing which i find particularly fulfilling in itself, then perhaps the drug use however intense it is, is being wasted, and may actually be holding me back from fulfiling whatever it is i desire to be, or learning more about myself. this leads to another potential problem; drug use (even psychedelic drug use) can become a very self absorbed and not neccessarily positive activity, most of us have either experienced first hand or know someone for whom drug use became a 9 to 5 job from which little enjoyment or growth was derived. im much less likely to over use my clarinet (or other forms of 'meditation') to the point that i am no longer learning anything or enjoying it (although i suppose its possible). drug use and 'meditation' (for me meditation is not some high faluting mystical activity seperate from the other activities of my life, it is trying to maintain a meditative intensity and involvement in whatever im doing) are both symptoms of the way i want to live my life: enjoying myself as much is as humanly possible, and finding others who are interested in the same thing.

just to address some other points you raised: music (sex, exercise, reading and any other personal subjective experience) is like religious experience or mystical revelation, people can spend lifetimes debating what 'level' of 'rapture' or whatever another person has attained, but i prefer not to. in the final instance, there is no absolute scale on which subjective experience can sensibly be measured. if i feel a sense of connection, wonderment and personally meaningful heightening of awareness, then that is enough for me. as for fluency in language, i take your point, but i wasnt talking about technical proficeincy, i was talking about reaching the stage where you no longer have to think in your native language and then translate, it just flows, and you begin to spontaneously construct sentences that you havent learnt without having to think about it. this neednt take a long time.

basically i agree with what youre saying, drug experiences (especially faves like dmt and ketamine where you are totally removed from consensus reality) have an intensity and 'other-worldliness' that is not as easily and completely achieved by other methods. but in terms of overall personal development i dont think that drugs alone are sufficent (although my personal belief is that from time to time they are neccessary, even if its only to remind us). to truely further yourself i think that attempting to live life with as much intensity as possible, doing a job that you enjoy and extends you, having a partner/relationships that you love and challenge you, and having passion for whatever you do as recreation, are equally important, after all it is these things that constitute most peoples lives not a series of intense drug experiences.

[Auxin]

A buddhist perspective:

Many buddhists are against visionary entheogens because they dont understand that many people do use them properly in the path to enlightenment.

Buddha said:

"Those who regard

non-essence as essence

and see essence as non-,

don't get to the essence,

ranging about in wrong resolves.

But those who know

essence as essence,

and non-essence as non-,

get to the essence,

ranging about in right resolves."

-Dhammapada 11-12

The reason many buddhists are against visionary entheogens is because they think when people use them they interpret the visions as reality (regard non-essence as essence). Some people do, but many people use them because they realize they already see non-essence as essence and entheogens can help one break down the walls that restrain our minds from seeing essence as essence. They help us open a door in our minds alowing us to go past pregudice and preconceived notions of reality and examine new ways of thinking.

The fifth precept of buddhism says:

"Respect for Mental and Physical Well-being: Not to Take Intoxicants ; To Be Mindful (This precept is sometimes interpreted as either total abstinence from intoxicants or as permissible moderate intake, so long as there is no indulgence of the senses or impairment of health or mindfulness. The best safeguard is total abstinence, which best sustains mindfulness in following the first four precepts.)"

Now the fifth precept is there to keep people from letting drugs lead one off the path to enlightenment. However the Buddha taught that to become enlightened one must cast off false notions and prejudices. If one uses entheogens in such a way that it helps cast off false assumptions and prejudices it would not deter you from the path to enlightenment and therefore would be ok in my opinion.

One last thought, a buddhist intellectual (I think it was the Buddha himself, but I'm not sure) said

"There are many paths up the mountain of enlightenment, but at the top all paths converge."

So surely noone can say that their path is the only path.

[Gwydion]

I can assure you that; yes, the Buddha certainly did say that, but that; no, it was certainly a buddhist intellectual instead.

You take the high road...

[nabraxas]

liquorice- i much enjoyed reading your well thought post, i had written a longer reply but i lost it

suffice to say i agree exactly w/all you say.

drugs V meditation is a useless dichotomy, but i excuse myself that i was trying to be confronting to generate debate.

i believe you hit the nail on the head. everyday life is the key- if your meditation, music, exercise, love, religeon, politics or drugs have no carryover into your everyday life, then conflict arrises.

i also believe all these things can be overdone, addictive & destructive, adding food to the list.

i agree talk ov levels ov tripping/meditation/fluency is ultimately useless but the terms beginner, intermediate & advanced can perhaps be applied?

auxin- i like bonpo i think they use dwugs in their devining rituals. http://www.tibetanbon.com/

sorry this reply has been edited & shortened by stupidity.

[t st tantra]

my best results have been from the combination of drugs and meditation.

areas of interest have included raj yoga,kundalini,chakras,mudra and mandala.

hatha yoga postures can also open doors.

t s t .

[nabraxas]

& i have found that visualisation meditation, like vajrasatva, is particularly aided by lsd/psiliocybin.

[nabraxas]

someone i know, used to deal lsd with his flatemate. he found he had a very high tolerance to lsd/mushrooms. he never really 'tripped out' in 3 years(except once when also using butane). he got effects & visuals, but only mild like walls 'breathing' or carpets 'waving' & trails/tracers, with a sense ov overwhelming euphoria. friends would take equal amounts & he could see they were 'seeing' much more than he was. he remained quite able to function, but he'd seen people totally 'off' & unable to talk or explain their expeerience. he found that taking lsd w/others would often cause them to have a bad expeerience when he failed to connect w/them on their level as they felt he should.

a few years later he came to mdma, his expeerience was the same as everyones. he combined it w/lsd, & felt the strength ov lsd. he found that after some time using the two, he was able to use lsd w/much more dramatic results.

so do you recon the mdma caused this to happen or was it just aging?

[Satori]

one of my friends says that, when he combines acid and mdma, the mdma kinda kicks to the acid, making the trip more exciting... so it prolly helps the acid a bit...

-Satori

[ 22. January 2003, 05:58: Message edited by: Satori ]

[Torsten]

hmmmm, candyflipping .... YUM!

[bluetonguedragon]

"naughty naughty very naughty is ebaneezer!!!!ha ha ha