Community of Infinite Colour

[GregKasarik]

Just out of curiosity, eatfoo, do you have any links on those theories?

IMHO, Paul Tobin's "Rejection of Pascal's Wager" (http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/) is the best site on the web for those looking for a position that is sceptical, yet respectful of Christianity. It is thoroughly researched, superbly referenced and written in a straightforward and easy to understand manner. I've relied extensively on it over the years. It also covers a huge swathe of issues. For example, the answer to your particular inquiry can be found here: http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/jesus.html#teaching

I highly encourage you to buy his book, http://www.bookdepository.com/Rejection-Pascals-Wager-Paul-Tobin/9780755204618, particularly if like me, you enjoy inviting Mormons and Jehovahs into your lair...

Imagine if Charles Manson hadn't had LSD attributed to the mind fuckery he imposed on his "family?" Might LSD have been allowed to continue being used in psychotherapeutic settings? Who knows? And I'm certainly NOT comparing Greg with that psychopath; I don't know him well enough at all. But I hope my rambling point is seen, however garbled it came out lol.

Charles Manson committed his crimes in 1969, while LSD had already been made illegal in October 1968, so the damage was largely done by the time he came onto the scene. I love it when people mention Manson as the epitome of their LSD concerns. My response goes something like this:

"So you are saying that despite millions of people using it over the last few decades, LSD is so dangerous that you have to go back over forty years for an example of someone doing something bad with it? What are the odds that I could come up with an example linking alcohol to multiple murders in just the last forty days?"

Even without knowing that over half of murders are linked to alcohol, most people are smart enough to not push the point.

There is no evidence that Manson's followers were tripping when they committed their crimes. I've certainly never seen any reference to it in descriptions of the court proceedings (although if I'm wrong, please let me know). In fact, a 1972 article, "Homicide During a Psychosis Induced by LSD", P Reich and R Hepps, reported that their search of the Medical literature had identified only three previous homicides associated with LSD (their's made four) and Manson wasn't mentioned.

[GregKasarik]

@7baz

I disagree. I certainly won't change things in my lifetime, but I'm playing a longer game than that.

The Infiniverse is like a puzzle for us to solve. Our trick is to figure out how to best lead our lives so that over the course of an eternity, we can discover some of the truly amazing places.

But in any case, it is not in my nature to slink in the shadows and if I am to live the life that gives me true joy, then I need to be living a life that challenges me to leave the world a better place than I found it. If you want to find heaven, you have to be prepared to work for it.

[GregKasarik]

and to top it off, you say have a beer, a fucking beer, alcohol, the saviour of the fucking world, if only everyone had a beer, or 10, surely the world would be a far far greater place. surely mental illness would disappear, and there would be no aggressive behaviour, and everyone in the world would interlock arms and sing this:

Laughed muchly!

Thanks!

[GregKasarik]

all we can do is tell our families , tell our friends , tell those whom we know.. thats the right way to go about it.

No. We can do a hell of a lot more!

We can stand up on our hind feet, proudly proclaiming who we are, what we do and letting everyone know that we will no longer tolerate being treated like criminals!

This is a fight for our basic freedoms. It isn't much different from any other fight for freedoms. All around the world, I see people living and dying for what I take for granted. When others are prepared to make such great sacrifices, how can I not follow in their footsteps? How can I let others bear the burden of forging a better world? How can I not forge ahead with freedom's great project? When the risks are so low, how can I not do my best to forge within Australia the brightest beacon for others to follow?

Nobody is going to kill me. Nobody is going to torture me. I've already lost employment. I might lose freedom. I might lose friends. I might lose family. But I won't lose dignity. I won't lose meaning. I won't lose purpose. And I won't lose the future.*

It won't be easy. I may become a victim of those who would subjugate us, but I can guarantee that by doing nothing we all become victims.

If I acquiesce to my own oppression, I am giving tacit approval to those who would seek to enslave me in fear. I choose to not live in fear. I choose to not live in oppression. I choose to live with myself!

*I also won't loose puppy!

[woof woof woof]

much less cheezy then the title of this thread suggests. hehehe. Greg,... you are awesome!!! Finally took the time to read through a bit. The title of the thread kinda put me off a bit. Your website looks good,...will have a look at it for sure.

here is a good docu about Charly... (hehehe Charles Manson) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_HzQcKx0ow and it will indeed confirm that Charly was a master manipulator and just downright fucked up in his mind. Also explains how he became so F'd up.

[GregKasarik]

Also, it seems to me that if someone is going to start a religion they don't scour internet forums looking for followers and talking themselves up. If they are the real deal people will want to listen without having to be informed of the fact that they are a mystic by the aspiring guru themselves.

This is inane. Where I live is so far from anywhere that there isn't even any mobile phone coverage. Are people supposed to spontaneously have visions in which they realise that I'm here and then drive into the middle of nowhere in order to find me?

Sitting under a bucket seems a good way to remain under a bucket. That is of course until someone kicks the bucket...

Of course, there are a lot of people who talk themselves up and scour the internet looking for followers, but like I said there are a lot of phoneys around.

I make no bones about the fact that I'm hoping that people will support me going forward and if I am to be able to move my campaign for legalisation up a notch, some of that will probably need to be financial. I also hope that they will like my ideas, incorporate them into their world view and share them with others.

But I'm not really looking for "followers". To be honest, I wouldn't have any clue about what do do with them, except put them to work helping the disadvantaged.

I have no problem with people doubting me, doubting my motives, or suspecting that I'm a phoney. indeed, I expect it. I do have a problem with them being douchebags about it. As you may have noticed, I do my best to remain civil and respectful to people I talk with, even though I am sure my occasional frustration and annoyance do percolate through.

[GregKasarik]

Do you mean that Greg specifically can't, or that the change itsef is improbable ? If the latter, then I would disagree... human conciousness is being mass manipulated each day with shallow & meaningless media, consumerism & entertainment, and nobody (generally speaking) is giving a damn about being sucked into the vortex of stupidity. You will start to see statistics in 10 years that lean heavily towards a society of barely literate, socially weak mental invalids that couldn't thnk for themselves, and reied heavily on Twitter & facebook for stimulation.

Oh god, I hope not! Personally, I think that we'll continue to meander along much like we've already done. After all, I remember people making these claims on a regular basis, ever since I was a kid. It seems, each generation reckons that the one following it is going to drop the ball entirely, but they invariably sort themselves out in the end.

At least Greg's proposal is about self-exploration, something mostly lacking in people <40 y/o (again, generally speaking). Take away the comparative angle of CIC being faith-based, and its a pretty solid grounding for our future. Its a shame that no one's around to practice it en masse.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Intriguingly, a few people have said similar things. Someone recently said that they thought I was wasting my time with talking to younger people, because they didn't have the life experience, or wisdom to understand where I was coming from. Especially in the modern age where everyone wants the "answers" today will shop around until they get them on a superficial level, because they lack the patience to really work at things. I'm not sure if I believe it, as older people are often much more locked within their own perspective and not as open to new ideas. Unless of course, they are having a mid life crisis.

I'm guessing there are advantages and disadvantages either way, with much of the effect being mediated by personality and circumstance.

Having said this, I'm glad that I didn't start using Transcendent Compounds until I was nearly forty. That gave me 30 odd years of mystical experience, philosophy, thinking and life experience that ended up being a firm foundation on which the Principles coalesced (yeah, I was a weird kid...),

I do wonder what I would have thought if I had simply read about these ideas as a younger person. Would I have persevered, or rejected it out of hand?

[GregKasarik]

much less cheezy then the title of this thread suggests. hehehe. Greg,... you are awesome!!! Finally took the time to read through a bit. The title of the thread kinda put me off a bit. Your website looks good,...will have a look at it for sure.

Thanks for the enthusiasm.

And yes, my self marketing skills sux.

I probably should have done a focus group before first posting here!

here is a good docu about Charly... (hehehe Charles Manson) and it will indeed confirm that Charly was a master manipulator and just downright fucked up in his mind. Also explains how he became so F'd up.

Thanks! This should be interesting. I'll look forward to watching it.

Edited January 5, 2012 by GregKasarik

[woof woof woof]

Gregg,..how about these statements?

God is awareness itself. (feedback loop?)

God is everything. (everything is energy?)

God constantly commands us. (me writing this could be one of his commands?)

I can't seem to agree that God isn't aware of himself.

To me God is outside the box, but still plugged into the box.

Also think that God needs/uses us to reflect with himself (the consciousness feedback loop), because we help to enrich consciouness. (you rub my back and I rub yours situation)

Meaningless is born out of not understanding your role/place in the circus. (Bird eats seed, bird shits seed, seed fall on fertile ground elsewhere, seed germinates.) We have a simmilar role in the ecosystem,... hahaha,... although maybe we were a little too succesfull as a species for our own environment,....... but I think that if you look at it that way you are not seeing the big picture and that could dfinitely lead a person to feel meaningless and depressed.

[woof woof woof]

http://www.kasarik.com/Something-vs-Nothing.php < sorry man, but I think there is some flawed reasoning on your page.

Everything (God) has always existed. Big bang was just a (starting) phase of our known part of the universe. It might be much bigger then most of us dare to realize. There are many interesting theories comming up lately. There is a good chance that it just go's on and on and on.....

Nothing does not exist. (nothing is only that which we don't know.

There is the unknowable or Great mystery. And it's absolutely crazy to try and wrap your head around it,....just maybe the answer is to feel it and to just feel like a part of it and discover it all one step at the time,... we just don't have enough neurons (yet hahaha) to dedicate to understanding all aspects/details individually,.... but feeling that chi energy bubble up allong your spine into the brain,....usually makes us feel content with it all.

[chilli]

Where I live is so far from anywhere that there isn't even any mobile phone coverage.

It makes sense now.. I wondered how a "mystic" like you keep calling yourself had so much time to spend writing so many long winded self-justifying posts on a forum like this, but now I see it is because like many internet junkies you are just isolated, lonely and bored.

I don't see how it is inane to say that self-promotion is generally not a sign of a being a true mystic, it makes perfect sense to me! In my experience with self-professing gurus and mystics those who do go around relentlessly promoting themselves have always turned out to be fake in one way or another. Maybe there are exceptions, but from what you have written so far you aren't shaping up to be one.

What I do think is inane is proselytizing for your new religion on the internet!

I don't see how anything I have said is uncivil, and your implying I am a "douchebag" only shows that it does bother you to be criticized and doubted. That, and the tiresome, prolix posts you constantly make to defend and justify yourself.

I'm hoping that people will support me going forward and if I am to be able to move my campaign for legalisation up a notch, some of that will probably need to be financial.

In other words, like every other religious person, you want money! You scorned and mocked Bretloth earlier for suggesting you were looking for followers, but it seems fairly obvious to me that this exactly what you are here to do: gather followers so you can squeeze some cash out of them to support your cause.

Also Matthew 10:14-15 says nothing about eternal fiery hell. The passages that do talk this way such as Matthew 25:41-46 were almost certainly never spoken by Jesus but were put on his lips by his followers decades after he died.

Edited January 7, 2012 by chilli

[GregKasarik]

Gregg,..how about these statements?

God is awareness itself. (feedback loop?)

God is everything. (everything is energy?)

God constantly commands us. (me writing this could be one of his commands?)

 

I would suggest that if God exists, God is the being whose consciousness entails every other possible being's consciousness.

In other words, God is the pinnacle of sentience and your first statement "God is awareness itself" would apply.

I wouldn't say that god is "everything", but I would say that God is every "experience".

I don't believe that God commands anything. God already entails every logically and mathematically possible experiential outcome, which will include every infinite variation of possible activity. Your writing, vs your not writing, or writing something totally different are already entailed by God's existence, so there is no need to command anything.

There are significant problems with any being which entails infinity. Just as it is impossible to see how any being could count up to infinity, it is impossible to see how any being could have experienced the infinite set of possible experiences. Apart from anything, such a being would have needed to count to infinity in all of the infinite possible ways that one could count to infinity. Just as talking about the set of infinite numbers is not the same as counting them, it seems that talking about the set of infinite experience is not the same as experiencing them. It is hard to see how such a being could be conscious in any meaningful sense.

I can't seem to agree that God isn't aware of himself.

To me God is outside the box, but still plugged into the box.

 

I assume that this is a reference to the Divine Principle. In that, I'm not saying that god isn't aware of himself. Such a being would be just as aware of their own sentience as you, or I, but in order for god to know if he is God, there needs to be some mechanism by which this can be determined. God if he exists, is 100% aware of Himself, but has no way of actually determining if He actually is God. It is a logical conundrum that is inescapable.

Most people when they are talking about "God" are assuming that God must know that God is God, simply because he is God. But this puts the horse before the cart, as God would be smart enough to not believe that he was God unless he had a sure fire way of knowing that he was God and achieving this certainty is impossible.

People make this error, because the monotheistic cultures in which we have been raised posit God as a monolithic entity that simply is, without bothering to engage empathetically with what it might be like to be such a being.

Also think that God needs/uses us to reflect with himself (the consciousness feedback loop), because we help to enrich consciouness. (you rub my back and I rub yours situation)

When it comes to the nature of God's metaphysical relationship with us, I am not wanting to speculate at this stage, or in this forum. This is mainly because my own understanding of the nature of the Divine is so incredibly complex, multifaceted and layered that I've never bothered to try and put it on paper. It is the sort of thing that I would never be able to write down and which I find easier to talk about.

What I would say is that as per the Omniscience Principle, it seems that if God exists, you are God. Beyond that, I would say that there are so many possible permutations and possibilities that one idea about the nature of God is as good as another and that our beliefs in this regard will be a reflection of what makes sense to us.

Having said this, I would say that any "god" that would be interacting with us would almost certainly not be God, although to our perceptions they would be indistinguishable. Just as we are shards of God's consciousness and experience, so to would that god be as well.

Meaningless is born out of not understanding your role/place in the circus. (Bird eats seed, bird shits seed, seed fall on fertile ground elsewhere, seed germinates.) We have a simmilar role in the ecosystem,... hahaha,... although maybe we were a little too succesfull as a species for our own environment,....... but I think that if you look at it that way you are not seeing the big picture and that could dfinitely lead a person to feel meaningless and depressed.

 

I would agree with this. I think that meaninglessness is a function of the individual and their personality. There are people I know who live very fulfilled and meaningful lives, but know that I could never find meaningfulness in that kind of existence.

Once we understand who we are and what we value, we can figure out if we should be on the trapeze, taming lions, putting up tents, or selling fairy floss...

At that point, meaningfulness fairly much leaps out of the page.

[GregKasarik]

http://www.kasarik.c...-vs-Nothing.php < sorry man, but I think there is some flawed reasoning on your page.

Everything (God) has always existed. Big bang was just a (starting) phase of our known part of the universe. It might be much bigger then most of us dare to realize. There are many interesting theories comming up lately. There is a good chance that it just go's on and on and on.....

Nothing does not exist. (nothing is only that which we don't know.

There is the unknowable or Great mystery. And it's absolutely crazy to try and wrap your head around it,....just maybe the answer is to feel it and to just feel like a part of it and discover it all one step at the time,... we just don't have enough neurons (yet hahaha) to dedicate to understanding all aspects/details individually,.... but feeling that chi energy bubble up allong your spine into the brain,....usually makes us feel content with it all.

 

Not sure what you are getting at. My point in that piece was precisely that because something and nothing are mutually exclusive, something must have always existed. I also hold that because God is something that exists, God can't be held as the reason why things exist.

I do define nothing differently than you, saying that it is the absence of anything, rather than simply being that which we do not know.

And yes, it is completely mind boggling to try and get a grip on this sort of stuff. I don't believe that we'll ever have enough neurons to understand it. Which is why it is so much fun!

[GregKasarik]

It makes sense now.. I wondered how a "mystic" like you keep calling yourself had so much time to spend writing so many long winded self-justifying posts on a forum like this, but now I see it is because like many internet junkies you are just isolated, lonely and bored.

Why do you have to be such a jerk?

The douchebaggery is evident to all, when people such as yourself are unable to resist the impulse to throw around petty insults as if your entire sense of self worth is tied up in your ability to tear others down and to demonstrate your own superiority.

I'm happy to chat if you are prepared to do so with respect and civility. Until then, I don't really see the point.

[chilli]

So now I am a jerk as well as a douchebag.. name calling is not exactly what i would call "respect and civility".

I think what really bothers you about my posts is the fact that I criticize things you are very sensitive about. It seems that despite what you say you actually have a very low tolerance for criticism.

People are like tubes of toothpaste: I like to give them a squeeze and see what comes out.

Edited January 16, 2012 by chilli

[Psylo]

Why do you have to be such a jerk?

 

Greg, maybe you should just walk away from this forum, from all the jerks.... Despite what might have seemed like a kindred audience to be found at such a place, its not working out (I am a bit shocked at the malice directed your way, truth be told). Don't let them get to you, its clear that your goals will have to be fought alone.

All the bet Greg, and the main thing is that you are expressing your ideals and living them in a way that many others ony dream of, but live in fear of themselves and others.

regards, and all the best

Psy

[chilli]

Greg, maybe you should just walk away from this forum, from all the jerks.... Despite what might have seemed like a kindred audience to be found at such a place, its not working out (I am a bit shocked at the malice directed your way, truth be told).

 

What are you on about? There are plenty of people supporting Greg in this thread, and only a couple of us jerks and douchebags. The fourm administrator himself supports his cause and vouches for him, and has threatened to suspend one of the other jerks, so I'm not sure why you are suggesting he just walk away because of lack of support. If you think "walk away from this forum, from all the jerks" is the solution then what are you doing here?

Additionally, I hold *absolutely no malice whatsoever towards Greg* whether he is genuine or not, and if he is genuine I wish him all the best. I am however extremely mistrustful of any self-professed religious leader who asks for support and money. Having been involved with a number of cult-like leaders and organziations in the course of my life, I have no intention of getting sucked in by all the outward appearance of sweetness and light and fluffy sheep apparel, because I know it often masks a ravenous ego-wolf.

If Greg or others find my disagreement and suspicion insulting.. well that's just too bad and as I said I think indicates a degree of over-sensitivity to criticism, and a desire to only be praised that i think is typical of religious leaders who want people's support and money. You don't see me getting all huffy because he called me names do you? You and Greg seem to be confusing: disagreeing with someone, being mistrustful of their motives and having little to no respect for their opinions and ideas with: hating that person or wishing harm on them. Reminded me of this cartoon I saw the other day:

Edited January 16, 2012 by chilli

[Psylo]

blah blah blah

 

chilli I have absolutely no interest in conversing with you under the umbrella of this topic, so don't bother addressing me in expectation of a response.

Stay positive, Greg.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Psylo Dread

[chilli]

chilli, on 16 January 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

blah blah blah

 

chilli I have absolutely no interest in conversing with you under the umbrella of this topic, so don't bother addressing me in expectation of a response.

Stay positive, Greg.

 

How childish! Block your ears and say blah blah blah I'm not listening!

It sounds like Greg's divisive, for-me-or-against-me mentality and cult-fostering tactics are working on your mind very well! The cult-like group I used to be a part of would discourage talking to skeptics as well.. Questioning or doubting the leader is evil!

I don't particularly care to talk to you either, was just clearing up your misrepresentations of what I have said so far.. as I said I have no malice whatsoever, I wish no one any harm or suffering.

I am being reminded of why I stopped posting in the so-called S&P forum a few years ago.. in this community it seems like "spirituality" is generally code for irrational credulity and sloppy thinking.

These days my default position towards self-styled religious leaders and their followers is mistrust, and like most religious folk so far his responses to my mistrust—ridicule, dismissiveness, whining and name calling—have only given me more reason to mistrust him!

But time will tell what Greg's motives are, and what effect he has on this community.. if I am wrong about him I will be the first to offer my apologies.

Edited January 16, 2012 by chilli

[-YT-]

group hug anyone? i know i need one

[chilli]

Me too, I'm in!

Greeeeg, Psyyyylooo... awww come over here and give me a cuddle you big douchebags!

[GregKasarik]

@Chilli.

Don't try to justify your rudeness and that of others as somehow being my problem. I don't write your posts for you, or control how you express yourself.

You can either have a conversation, or you can throw around insults, snide remarks and other juvenile pettiness, such as the assertion that because I live in the bush, I am "like many internet junkies ... just isolated, lonely and bored".

Your choice.

[GregKasarik]

@ Psylo Dread.

Thanks for the support. Ultimately, the way that we chose to communicate here is a reflection of who we are and what we value. Certain members of these forums have not done themselves proud, but in doing so, they may have actually done me a favour and raised my esteem in the eyes of many.

[whitewind]

When I was 15 my ultra-hardcore roman catholic father (who's probable claim to infamy was such that he thought the previous pope was way too progressive and so he used to write to him telling him he should go a bit harder) - watch out long sentence getting longer - wanted to join an uber-hardcore catholic community that had almost totally severed ties to the outside world.

This was not appealing to myself, nor my younger brother and sister, who came to me and implored me to stop my this from happening. This was my first true effort at standing up to authority, as I told my father in no uncertain terms he and my mother would not be doing it with their children. I had no idea how I would look after my siblings, but I had vowed to do so, and I was terrified.

Luckily my father saw sense and things settled down. But my fear of religious communities has not gone away.

Still, this is but the internet so my interaction with this community is limited at best!

But that was supposed to be a little segway in to what I was meaning to say. It's your use of the words Divine and in particular God that brings back all the old religious associations Greg, together with discussion of the community. Change a few words here and there - like God with The Universe, and I will be a happier bunny.

Anyway, that's just trying to suggest that we're not douchebags if we have knee-jerk reactions to the idea of a religious community in our midst. We have some damn good reasons to ensure it doesn't happen.

[whitewind]

@Chilli. Don't try to justify your rudeness and that of others as somehow being my problem. I don't write your posts for you, or control how you express yourself. You can either have a conversation, or you can throw around insults, snide remarks and other juvenile pettiness, such as the assertion that because I live in the bush, I am "like many internet junkies ... just isolated, lonely and bored". Your choice.

I have to support Greg in saying you were a bit mean, here, Chilli.

I lived out of mobile range for a while - the lack of electro-magnetism in my life was quite liberating to the spiritual mind. I never slept better in my life either. Good on you Greg, hope your spiritual quest brings you rewards.